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  1. #151
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    11.52 last night during a training session. This early season is shaping up very well.

    Maybe will have another update on Saturday if it's not too windy. I'll actually have some aero gear on this weekend.
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  2. #152
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    What have you Hellyer guys who have come down to LAV found the difference on 200m's to be?

    my highly limited experience with 333's:
    1)exactly 1 200m at Indy (ridden poorly but still within a 10th of my then best)
    2) comparing times from riders i know at LAV and San Diego Velodrome
    has led me to believe that LAV is not really much faster over that distance than a good 333m.
    especially if you are not pretty knowledgeable about how to ride LAV- in particular the wind-up..

    any thoughts from guys who have ridden both?

  3. #153
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    oh- and Congrats on the 11.52" Jaytron- thats Fast!

    Now do it Saturday with someone who doesn't work for you working the clock!

  4. #154
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    What have you Hellyer guys who have come down to LAV found the difference on 200m's to be?

    my highly limited experience with 333's:
    1)exactly 1 200m at Indy (ridden poorly but still within a 10th of my then best)
    2) comparing times from riders i know at LAV and San Diego Velodrome
    has led me to believe that LAV is not really much faster over that distance than a good 333m.
    especially if you are not pretty knowledgeable about how to ride LAV- in particular the wind-up..

    any thoughts from guys who have ridden both?
    When it comes to events 500M and under, I don't think LAV is as fast as people assume it to be. It could be faster for long, steady-state events being that it's shielded from wind.

    For flying 200M and Standing 500M (Elite, Junior, Male and Female): I've watched racers go from DLV to LAV and expect faster times and not be rewarded. They came out about the same. The same for the Superdrome.

    I actually believe that Rock Hill is faster than LAV due to it's smoother turns that don't seem to scrub off speed. At LAV, I distinctly remember having to fight my way out of the turns to regain my speed after diving into them. I didn't have to do that so much at Rock Hill.
    Last edited by carleton; 05-02-14 at 10:29 PM.

  5. #155
    Senior Member
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    For me LA is two seconds faster for a kilo, but I've yet to do a good 200 on LA so can't really comment. I feel like it should give me .3-.5 over Hellyer if I nail it. I think for Allen V it was something like .2-.3 faster, but don't quote me.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    For me LA is two seconds faster for a kilo, but I've yet to do a good 200 on LA so can't really comment. I feel like it should give me .3-.5 over Hellyer if I nail it. I think for Allen V it was something like .2-.3 faster, but don't quote me.
    Encino is about .4" slower than LAV if you are really good at both tracks. The catch is that there is a very steep bell curve after a point- say 11.5". The track record was recently set by Mansker at 11.1" (iirc) so obviously the difference gets bigger at the elite end of the spectrum.
    I actually know a bunch of people with average(12-13") 200's who can go faster at Encino- but its most likely do to the fact that you don't have to learn how to conserve energy during the wind-up.

    i think the 333's tend to be fast simply because you go through less turns a speed- and LAV's turns are tight and hard to put out watts.. i certainly felt that with more time and not almost crashing mid effort- i could of ridden a very good 200 at Indy..

  7. #157
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    For me LA is two seconds faster for a kilo
    not to derail the 200m thread too much with Kilo Talk-
    But i find the big discrepancy in kilo times between LAV and an outdoor track tend to be biggest on lap 3 and 4. My opening 500m split on my best kilo at LAV and Encino are the same- but my best Encino Kilo time is 2" slower..

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    not to derail the 200m thread too much with Kilo Talk-
    But i find the big discrepancy in kilo times between LAV and an outdoor track tend to be biggest on lap 3 and 4. My opening 500m split on my best kilo at LAV and Encino are the same- but my best Encino Kilo time is 2" slower..
    This may help- Masker and Watkins tied for the 200 record at Hellyer at 10.7

  9. #159
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    This may help- Masker and Watkins tied for the 200 record at Hellyer at 10.7
    id say that supports your .3-.5" theory- with a little bit of the bell-curve at the extreme fast end thrown in..

  10. #160
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    What have you Hellyer guys who have come down to LAV found the difference on 200m's to be?

    my highly limited experience with 333's:
    1)exactly 1 200m at Indy (ridden poorly but still within a 10th of my then best)
    2) comparing times from riders i know at LAV and San Diego Velodrome
    has led me to believe that LAV is not really much faster over that distance than a good 333m.
    especially if you are not pretty knowledgeable about how to ride LAV- in particular the wind-up..

    any thoughts from guys who have ridden both?
    One of my teammates went 11.7 down there. He's more of a 12.0 up here. I've never been down myself.

    Oh today we had 3 timers for the event. Finally busted out the race wheels and managed a 11.37 on a fairly windy day. I had some problems with stability, sat earlyand swung up a bit :/ better luck next time I guess. A little frustrated that I screwed it up, but happy for the PB.
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  11. #161
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Nice work Jaytron!

    looking forward to seeing you down at LAV!!!

    ill update the chart tomorrow.. you can give me your new goal time also

  12. #162
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Nice work Jaytron!

    looking forward to seeing you down at LAV!!!

    ill update the chart tomorrow.. you can give me your new goal time also
    Thanks Quinn!

    Yeah, I need to go do the certification stuff and ride a real velodrome! Excited to see if LA is faster or not for me, it seems to be different with each rider.


    New goal time: 11.16
    Personal goal is to hopefully get there by the end of this season
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  13. #163
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Nice work man!

    BTW, you know you can do more than one in a training session devoted to flying 200s, right?

  14. #164
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Nice work man!

    BTW, you know you can do more than one in a training session devoted to flying 200s, right?
    Hahaha, when I do that, I feel that attempts beyond the first are worthless (for a good time)
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  15. #165
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Yeah, I need to go do the certification stuff and ride a real velodrome! Excited to see if LA is faster or not for me, it seems to be different with each rider.
    Get it done so you can race here!
    and most of the differences have to do with learning the correct technique- its a specialized track.. your coach will get you there fast though

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    New goal time: 11.16
    Personal goal is to hopefully get there by the end of this season
    Uht-Oh! you are catching up with me! i better up my game!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Hahaha, when I do that, I feel that attempts beyond the first are worthless (for a good time)
    This is knowledge that will be used against you if we ever match sprint!!

  16. #166
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Hahaha, when I do that, I feel that attempts beyond the first are worthless (for a good time)
    That's probably a function of rest between efforts more than anything.

  17. #167
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Get it done so you can race here!
    and most of the differences have to do with learning the correct technique- its a specialized track.. your coach will get you there fast though


    Uht-Oh! you are catching up with me! i better up my game!


    This is knowledge that will be used against you if we ever match sprint!!
    Yeah, I really want to get down there.

    I still have a ton of weaknesses when it comes down to match Sprint tactics unfortunately There's so much to learn!
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  18. #168
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Yeah, I really want to get down there.

    I still have a ton of weaknesses when it comes down to match Sprint tactics unfortunately There's so much to learn!
    Yeah, that'll come with time and experience. The more you do it the easier it will become and you can start find-tuning the small things.

    Remember how mentally stimulating driving a car was the first time you got behind the wheel? So much to think about and everything is coming at you so fast. After a while, all of that goes away and it gets easier.

    Just listen to your coach and race as much as possible and don't put too much emphasis on results. Just get experience and "reps".
    Last edited by carleton; 05-04-14 at 01:51 PM.

  19. #169
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    So I've actually had a few track workout sessions prior to opening night this season (opening night is on Thursday!), and this Flying 200m Challenge has inspired me to actually work on my 200.

    Anyway, in my most recent session I did a 12.4, which is a PB. My goal is 12.0 and I was hoping that my fall & winter of squats would have left me with greater initial gains, but, I'm still encouraged: I'm getting a good feel for how to expend energy and where to accelerate in the flying 200m; I'm feeling much better about pushing a bigger gear (I put on a 98), which probably isn't necessary given the paltry speed I hit, but consistent with my trends of not really being able to do high rpm stuff either early in the season, or while in the wind; and, it was a windy day.

    So I figure that with some more race fitness, some additional practice, some more aero gear, and a calm day, I might be able to get down to my target.
    the hipster myth.

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  20. #170
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    Did my first proper flying 200 last night. My home track is 138 so we never do them, but I've done plenty of flying 138s lol

    Outdoor wood, minimal wind, 12.9. Actually happy with it since I don't consider myself a sprinter. My goal will be sub 12.5 for the year, but I think Milton will be at least .3 faster on its own.



    Out of curiosity, what 'aero' savings do people find? Say a skinsuit, disc, aero(er) helmet, any idea what they save? I figure they would be worth a 10th or two?

  21. #171
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Did my first proper flying 200 last night. My home track is 138 so we never do them, but I've done plenty of flying 138s lol

    Outdoor wood, minimal wind, 12.9. Actually happy with it since I don't consider myself a sprinter. My goal will be sub 12.5 for the year, but I think Milton will be at least .3 faster on its own.



    Out of curiosity, what 'aero' savings do people find? Say a skinsuit, disc, aero(er) helmet, any idea what they save? I figure they would be worth a 10th or two?
    The skinsuit and aero helmet will give the most gains (and most gains for the money as well). The disc, not so much.

  22. #172
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    I know wheels are one of the lowest benefits, especially a cost:speed point of view. Just wondering if anyone had data on 'training' setup vs 'race setup' on times. There is lots of info out there on the effect based on 40k times/speed, just not sure how it translates on such a short distance.

  23. #173
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    I would hazard that an aero front wheel would have a noticeable effect.

    I did a bunch more flying 200s yesterday, and knocked .2 sex off of my best time - I'm down to 12.2. My goal is 12.0 by the end of the season. A few thoughts:

    1. Practice really matters. Finding when and where in the windup to pick up speed is really important.
    2. Repetition matters. I had my best on my 4th sprint of the day, even after a 4x 500m workout, a 3 hr ride the day before, and a race night the day before.
    3. Like you, gtrob, I'm wondering what I could do if I were totally aero'ed out with disc, air attack, & deeper front wheel. Not to mention if I didn't have a ripping headwind on the homestretch...
    4. Feeling fast isn't necessarily fast - I felt way faster on my 2nd than on my first but they were comparable. Sensations are mysterious.
    the hipster myth.

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  24. #174
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    I know wheels are one of the lowest benefits, especially a cost:speed point of view. Just wondering if anyone had data on 'training' setup vs 'race setup' on times. There is lots of info out there on the effect based on 40k times/speed, just not sure how it translates on such a short distance.
    In my armchair physicist estimation: Aero benefits are exponential (just like air resistance). So, the faster you are, the more benefit you get from aero equipment.

    I've seen guys who ride a 14" flying 200 buy a world class bike (including Mavic Io and Comete)...and still ride a 14" flying 200.

    As queerpunk notes, the flying 200 is a very technical event. There are so many variables that have to all align for one to run the best possible time given an athlete's current level of fitness. Think of it as learning to high jump. It takes practice.

    40K tt is a steady state event over a LONG period of time. So it's easy to estimate within a reasonable amount of time as to what benefits may be available. There are just too many variables to quantify what a piece of equipment will do for you in terms of time. Generally people just do the best they can in each particular area: fit, clothing, helmet, wheels, gearing, windup, etc... and let it all come together.

    Contrary to popular belief, the Flying 200M must be practiced if you expect to do your best at it.

    Gtrob, given that you did your first proper flying 200M this week, you'll get faster just by doing more of them...like in the same training session.

  25. #175
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    Totally agree. I found close to a second off my flying 138 time over the winter and account 80% of that to just technique. I find the 200 track a lot easier anyway, as turn 1 isn't so 'violent' when you turn in and can actually put power through the corner.

    Maybe I should aim for 11.9 so I can keep up with the gorillas on this forum

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