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  1. #26
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amybikes View Post
    So I didn't actually eat anything on that ride (other than a protein shake) -- I don't usually for a 2-3 hour ride, and it kind of escaped me that might be more painful than usual. I enjoyed some eggs, creamed coconut, and peanut butter when I got home. (Suprised at the carb content of PB. The creamed coconut is great -- 3g of carbs, 10g of fat). But basically, I got through the day by virtue of passing out for a few hours in the middle of the day.
    dont skimp on the fat- i assume you are shooting for at least 100g a day? dont underestimate how important it is for both having enough energy to get through your day and teaching your body to function on ketones.. and dont underestimate how hard it is to consistently consume that much fat

  2. #27
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amybikes View Post
    Carleton, and others, have you checked out this site:
    http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/k...d-state-part-i
    This guy does a ton of self experimentation, and is really well educated and researched in terms of nutrition and ketosis. An interesting thing he mentioned is that keto and other low carb diets are actually more beneficially for individuals who start out with insulin dependence, statistically. (There was a really good study done comparing low fat, and low carb diets, and basically they found that the responses of individuals to the diets were pretty well correlated with beginning insulin resistance, and other markers. It's far from conclusive, and Stanford is currently doing a 3 year clinical trial to shed more light on this. [aside: I just signed up to take that PI's nutrition class next quarter! Psyched])
    Anyway, doesn't sound like insulin resistance would make keto more challenging. One thing, is you probably eat much more protein than your GF? It seems like to get into Keto, (efficiently/quickly) you have to kind of limit your protein intake too. Excess protein can be converted to glycogen in the liver, which reduces the need for ketone bodies. According the guy I linked to above, the higher your caloric need, the higher percentage of fat you need. I'm assuming you need more calories than your tiny girlfriend, so actually eating the same macros as her (aka the same foods just larger portions) wouldn't work. So maybe it's not that strange?
    I think you are right about this stuff, too. I eat A LOT of protein, way more than her. She eats whatever fats are OK on the diet and veggies and only a little meat. Me, I eat my share AND the meat that she doesn't eat

    I'm learning, I'm learning...

    I'm going to read that site tonight.

    BTW, Amy, I did my 1st plunge into the keto diet as we were doing speed and power work as the season started last May. I hated life. So, it can be worse

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    BTW, Amy, I did my 1st plunge into the keto diet as we were doing speed and power work as the season started last May. I hated life. So, it can be worse
    Oy, did it get better after the first few weeks, or was it just terrible over all? I was hoping that with people reporting still being able to make lifting gains, my track work wouldn't be too horrible the whole time. Thank g-d we just finished the 60s efforts, and are moving into pure sprint stuff. (Ie pure phosphate) I don't think my dainty psyche could withstand another 14 second 200 (or 13 second...). I guess I'm forbidding stopwatches for a while.

  4. #29
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amybikes View Post
    Oy, did it get better after the first few weeks, or was it just terrible over all? I was hoping that with people reporting still being able to make lifting gains, my track work wouldn't be too horrible the whole time. Thank g-d we just finished the 60s efforts, and are moving into pure sprint stuff. (Ie pure phosphate) I don't think my dainty psyche could withstand another 14 second 200 (or 13 second...). I guess I'm forbidding stopwatches for a while.
    Yeah, it gets better after your body makes the switch over.

  5. #30
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    How's this for incentive:

    I promised my GF that if she helped me lose 30lbs before June, I'd take her to Hawaii.

    She is ALL ABOUT IT now, hahaha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    How's this for incentive:

    I promised my GF that if she helped me lose 30lbs before June, I'd take her to Hawaii.

    She is ALL ABOUT IT now, hahaha.
    You might want to qualify the rules. A trip like that might have her estimating how much weight could be removed with your right leg.

  7. #32
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slindell View Post
    You might want to qualify the rules. A trip like that might have her estimating how much weight could be removed with your right leg.
    0_0


    Sounds like a horror movie!

  8. #33
    Italian Stallion mcafiero's Avatar
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    I'm down for a competition. I started this in October, but just switched to a Keto diet a couple of weeks ago, so it will be fun to see how my third photo turns out. I'm also changing my workouts to more of a hypertrophy strength-training regimine (legs only) with some work on the bike and some more core stuff. Here's where I'm at so far. Almost 20 lbs. I would like to lose another 20 by end of Feb, although10-15 is prob more realistic.
    "Go out hard. When it hurts... speed up"
    I have a grande hairy chest and I am of Italian descent.
    2010 Cannondale Supersix
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  9. #34
    Italian Stallion mcafiero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    How's this for incentive:

    I promised my GF that if she helped me lose 30lbs before June, I'd take her to Hawaii.

    She is ALL ABOUT IT now, hahaha.
    You know, this means you are taking her to Hawaii. Period. And you will gain weight in Hawaii. Aloha!
    "Go out hard. When it hurts... speed up"
    I have a grande hairy chest and I am of Italian descent.
    2010 Cannondale Supersix
    2011 Dolan DF3

  10. #35
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    dont skimp on the fat- i assume you are shooting for at least 100g a day? dont underestimate how important it is for both having enough energy to get through your day and teaching your body to function on ketones.. and don't underestimate how hard it is to consistently consume that much fat
    My fat/protein/carb usually looks like 150/60/50 a day with a little variance in the carbs but I make sure to stay under 100 grams of carbs a day to maintain ketosis. Too much protein will cause some of that to get converted to glucose but you want to maintain a minimum of .8g per kg for healthy functioning and increase protein if you are doing a lot of physical work or if you are trying to gain weight.

    We make bulletproof coffee in the morning which is about 300 calories per cup... add 1 tbsp of butter, 1 tbsp of coconut oil, heavy cream, and a tsp of vanilla and whip it with a whisk or put it all in a blender.

    It is good for about 300 calories and the medium chain triglycerides from the coconut oil provide a quick boost as these are metabolized quickly.

    In the evening I make butter tea which uses the same quantities of butter and coconut oil and I often make butter chai by spicing it up.

    We really don't count calories on this diet and eat when we are hungry, you don't have many cravings and when I get up in the am my fasting blood sugar is pretty much perfect... I can usually hit the floor running and not worry about eating right away.

    I am not looking lose weight and have been maintaining my race weight for more than a year and a half on this diet... since August my wife has lost 48 pounds which she gained after surgery and just wasn't losing even though she was on a nearly perfect diet (that included a small amount of carbs). She stays under 20 grams of carbs a day... these all come from vegetables and the little bit of milk that goes in the tea.

    In working out for a 6 week stretch I gained 4 pounds of muscle with ease... was lifting like a boss.

  11. #36
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    My fat/protein/carb usually looks like 150/60/50 a day with a little variance in the carbs but I make sure to stay under 100 grams of carbs a day to maintain ketosis. Too much protein will cause some of that to get converted to glucose but you want to maintain a minimum of .8g per kg for healthy functioning and increase protein if you are doing a lot of physical work or if you are trying to gain weight.

    We make bulletproof coffee in the morning which is about 300 calories per cup... add 1 tbsp of butter, 1 tbsp of coconut oil, heavy cream, and a tsp of vanilla and whip it with a whisk or put it all in a blender.

    It is good for about 300 calories and the medium chain triglycerides from the coconut oil provide a quick boost as these are metabolized quickly.

    In the evening I make butter tea which uses the same quantities of butter and coconut oil and I often make butter chai by spicing it up.

    We really don't count calories on this diet and eat when we are hungry, you don't have many cravings and when I get up in the am my fasting blood sugar is pretty much perfect... I can usually hit the floor running and not worry about eating right away.

    I am not looking lose weight and have been maintaining my race weight for more than a year and a half on this diet... since August my wife has lost 48 pounds which she gained after surgery and just wasn't losing even though she was on a nearly perfect diet (that included a small amount of carbs). She stays under 20 grams of carbs a day... these all come from vegetables and the little bit of milk that goes in the tea.

    In working out for a 6 week stretch I gained 4 pounds of muscle with ease... was lifting like a boss.

    That coffee/tea sounds interesting and amazing. I'll try it tomorrow.

    Thanks, man!

  12. #37
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcafiero View Post
    I'm down for a competition. I started this in October, but just switched to a Keto diet a couple of weeks ago, so it will be fun to see how my third photo turns out. I'm also changing my workouts to more of a hypertrophy strength-training regimine (legs only) with some work on the bike and some more core stuff. Here's where I'm at so far. Almost 20 lbs. I would like to lose another 20 by end of Feb, although10-15 is prob more realistic.
    Nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by mcafiero View Post
    You know, this means you are taking her to Hawaii. Period. And you will gain weight in Hawaii. Aloha!
    Hahahaha!

  13. #38
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Carleton- i suspect you and i have similar difficulties getting into Ketosis. For me the only way to turn the strips anything resembling dark purple is to really up my fat intake..
    Check out this Keto Percentage calculator:
    http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com

    Even if i am quite conservative with my entries i still get a daily fat requirement of 200g

    200g of fat is nearly a 1/2lb… that is the equivalent of an entire block of Kerry Gold butter- every day- day after day.. its a lot of fat and i suspect the "I'm eating lots of bacon and butter" diet doesn't get us close- maybe some days, but not week after week..
    Im trying to track down the study- but there is some solid data that says that when you put people on Atkins and tell them to eat "all the fat they want" they end up limiting themselves to quite low daily calorie intake.. we are not accustomed to eating that much fat..

    I have found that the only way for me to stay in ketosis (and keep the sticks purple) is to consume well over 100g of Medium Chain Triglyceride fats on their own throughout the day.. so spoons of Virgin Coconut Oil and shots of Olive oil.. thats in addition to fatty meats, bacon and avocados..

    The counter to this whole thing is- I'm not totally convinced being in Ketosis is even necessary.. I am playing around with it to try to lose a big chunk of bodyweight fast, so i can "Make Weight" at a powerlifting meet (think Vision Quest)- but if i was looking for a more gradual weight loss id just do my normal Non calorie restricted Paleo..

    Man, you were right on this.

    Before, I had a very hard time keeping the strips purple (or even violet) consistently (maybe 1 out of every 4 tests). Looking back, I was eating low-carb, high protein, low-moderate fat. Now that I've been eating a lot of heavy cream, my strips are purple almost every time I test. I'm 3lbs down and I'm starting to notice changes here and there that my body has converted over.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Man, you were right on this.

    Before, I had a very hard time keeping the strips purple (or even violet) consistently (maybe 1 out of every 4 tests). Looking back, I was eating low-carb, high protein, low-moderate fat. Now that I've been eating a lot of heavy cream, my strips are purple almost every time I test. I'm 3lbs down and I'm starting to notice changes here and there that my body has converted over.
    Wait a minute!!!!

    are we in the same age group???
    did i just help the competition??

    lol! im glad you are seeing progress! im a little stalled on my weight loss at the moment..

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Wait a minute!!!!

    are we in the same age group???
    did i just help the competition??

    lol! im glad you are seeing progress! im a little stalled on my weight loss at the moment..
    Hahaha!

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    Wel I'm very happy to say that I've just come back from my first double gym/track day, and it actually went really well! Was still able to maintain my progression in squats from last week. (Actually added on 15 lbs easily, not the 10 I was planning. Win.) Track was great too, hitting cadence PR's.

    I haven't really gone down in weight though. I think I've been hitting the macros I need to, but I definitely don't think I'm in ketosis yet. I'll buy the strips next week and see. A few advantages I've noticed though, are I graze less. Like I can't just eat a few chocolate covered espresso beans at sprouts, cause I don't want any extra carbs. Easier to be really precise with what I'm doing. So far so good.

  17. #42
    Junior Member mjh365's Avatar
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    I will echo what others have said about fat. Having the correct amount of the correct kind is very important. And once your body makes the switch to fat burning from sugar burning your performance with most things will improve. As mentioned Dr Attia's Eating Academy site is a good resource. Good luck.

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    anyone ever done a few days where they basically just eat fat to speed things along? I'm not impatient..... I swear...

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    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amybikes View Post
    anyone ever done a few days where they basically just eat fat to speed things along? I'm not impatient..... I swear...
    Some people will fast to kickstart the process as this triggers ketosis in pretty much anyone... it really does not take long for your body to switch but the adaptive phases takes a few weeks.

    During that one might want to boost their protein a little as your body will use that to produce glucose / glycogen in the absence of carbs.

    I stay under 100 grams of carbs a day to maintain keto, my wife stays under 20... we are all different.

    100 grams of carbs is that line where eating less will start the ketogenic process.

    As always, consult with your physician if you have health concerns and also know that many doctors will think you are nuts.

    Ours is very supportive as he gets to read our blood work reports which are very good.

  20. #45
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    Some people will fast to kickstart the process as this triggers ketosis in pretty much anyone... it really does not take long for your body to switch but the adaptive phases takes a few weeks.

    During that one might want to boost their protein a little as your body will use that to produce glucose / glycogen in the absence of carbs.

    I stay under 100 grams of carbs a day to maintain keto, my wife stays under 20... we are all different.

    100 grams of carbs is that line where eating less will start the ketogenic process.

    As always, consult with your physician if you have health concerns and also know that many doctors will think you are nuts.

    Ours is very supportive as he gets to read our blood work reports which are very good.
    Believe it or not, I had a doctor actually prescribe the Keto diet for me. He did for a lot of his patients as well as following it himself.

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    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Believe it or not, I had a doctor actually prescribe the Keto diet for me. He did for a lot of his patients as well as following it himself.
    The transition has been slow in some circles...

  22. #47
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    So, my strips have been consistently purple every test. Yaaay, small victories.

    By the way, here is a great book on the subject that was prescribed reading to me by a Doctor who is also an atlete following the Keto diet:

    The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance

    I read this book earlier this year and I just went over my highlights:

    "In addition to reducing your dietary carbs, an important factor for getting into nutritional ketosis is to not over-consume protein."
    "What we do know is that the [Iditarod sled] dogs perform and recover better on a diet that is high in fat, moderate in protein and low in carbohydrate content"
    "Rather than consume large portions of meats or other protein foods, focus on small to moderate protein portions and combine them with generous portions of good sources of fat (e.g., sauces, butter, olive oil)."
    "Therefore a key to successful keto-adaptation is figuring out ways to specifically increase your fat intake without over-consuming carbohydrate and protein."

    On my first try with Keto, I was eating low carb, moderate fat, and HIGH protein, thinking, "I lift therefore I eat lots of protein". This is why I couldn't maintain ketosis.

    So, the book listed above is a good, quick, easy read that simply explains a lot of why keto should work for most athletes.

    If you really want to nerd out on the subject, there is Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UZNSC2/ref=r_soa_w_d I read this one back in 2012.

    It's 640 pages of research on the matter. Basically, it's the book that should settle most doubts (and arguments) on the subject. He makes a point, then explains why in scientific terms and with proof. He also notes social norms around health and food and shows how they came to be and how some are right and some are wrong. For example, concepts like "ALL fat is bad", "Carbo-loading", USDA Food pyramids, "The brain NEEDS carbs to function" etc...

    Here is what he has to say about carbs for the brain:

    Also, carbohydrates in these diets can be restricted, but the standard thinking is that they have to remain sufficiently high so that the brain and central nervous system derive all their necessary fuel from this dietary source of glucose. Nutritionists will often insist that 130 grams a day of carbohydrates are the minimal safe amount in a human diet.

    ...

    Though glucose is a primary fuel for the brain, it is not, however, the only fuel, and dietary carbohydrates are not the only source of that glucose. If the diet includes less than 130 grams of carbohydrates, the liver increases its synthesis of molecules called ketone bodies, and these supply the necessary fuel for the brain and central nervous system. If the diet includes no carbohydrates at all, ketone bodies supply three-quarters of the energy to the brain. The rest comes from glucose synthesized from the amino acids in protein, either from the diet or from the breakdown of muscle, and from a compound called glycerol that is released when triglycerides in the fat tissue are broken down into their component fatty acids. In these cases, the body is technically in a state called ketosis, and the diet is often referred to as a ketogenic diet.
    Basically, this is the book that a doctor or nutritionist might read in order to not only "What" and "Why" but also the "How" of high fat, low carb diets.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Good info Carleton! Thanks..

    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    "In addition to reducing your dietary carbs, an important factor for getting into nutritional ketosis is to not over-consume protein."
    On the subject of Protein and Keto..
    all the information i am seeing on protein consumption while on keto mentions not going too high since an excess of protein is converted into glucose.. but conservative sites i see (ie- for non-athletic people looking to drop weight) are recommending 1g per lb of lean body mass and Bodybuilding sites (people who actually know quite a bit about losing weight and retaining muscle) are saying as high as 1.5g per lb of LBM...

    For me that puts me consuming 175g to 250g of protein per day... thats certainly not low protein.. I tend to go closer to 250g a day- ill take some extra glucose over losing muscle.. plus i run at the low end on the carbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Good info Carleton! Thanks..



    On the subject of Protein and Keto..
    all the information i am seeing on protein consumption while on keto mentions not going too high since an excess of protein is converted into glucose.. but conservative sites i see (ie- for non-athletic people looking to drop weight) are recommending 1g per lb of lean body mass and Bodybuilding sites (people who actually know quite a bit about losing weight and retaining muscle) are saying as high as 1.5g per lb of LBM...

    For me that puts me consuming 175g to 250g of protein per day... thats certainly not low protein.. I tend to go closer to 250g a day- ill take some extra glucose over losing muscle.. plus i run at the low end on the carbs.
    I'm sort've alternating the amount of protein I consume to go along with amount of exercise done. Haven't gotten the strips yet but my appetite is suppressed enough that I'm almost positive it's working. Dropped a lb or so too! (After I started working days in of the modified protein sparring modified fasts) So far so good folks!!

  25. #50
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    I guess this isn't a good time to mention that I'm trying to gain weight?

    Like many of you, about a year and a half ago I transitioned to a diet that cut way back on grains, sugars, and processed foods, while increasing healthy fats and protein. It began as just a desire to slightly increase protein, but after a fair amount of time in Pub Med, realized there was more wrong with my diet than just lack of protein. It was a fairly significant shift for my carbo-loading roadie paradigm. I went from roughly 70/20/10 (carb/fat/protein) originally, to now about 25/40/35.

    At that point, I had been cycling about 6 years, and for the previous 5 of those years, I held extremely steady at 162-ish. Miles went up, miles went down, I pretty much stayed at 162. I figured it was just my natural sweet spot in terms of weight. So when I started the shift above, it was with ZERO intention of changing my weight. I was quite astounded when I lost 5-6 lbs over the first 5 months. All while my saddle time was at its lowest ever (more track, far fewer endurance road miles). This led to more research, which led to more diet tweaks.

    Side note: my blood panel, which was already pretty solid, improved across the board. Preaching to the converted here, but I can't say enough about reducing grains, and increasing protein and fats.

    With now adding weights for the first time, it's leading me even further down the rabbit hole. Even with eggs/meat 3x per day, I think I'm probably still a bit lower than ideal on the protein. I'd love to get that from real food, but I think scoops of whey are in my near future.

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