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-   -   On Low Carb / Keto Diets for Track Sprinters (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/926762-low-carb-keto-diets-track-sprinters.html)

rensho3 01-02-14 12:13 PM

I have just started on a keto diet, and am having trouble getting enough protein. I checked out the "pain and anger" site, and other sites, and have kind of settled on Nutrex's Muscle Infusion. I was wondering if anyone has tried it. It looks like it should pass WADA, but I want to make sure as I plan to do Master's Natz and Worlds this year. Thanks in advance.

carleton 01-02-14 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rensho3 (Post 16375956)
I have just started on a keto diet, and am having trouble getting enough protein. I checked out the "pain and anger" site, and other sites, and have kind of settled on Nutrex's Muscle Infusion. I was wondering if anyone has tried it. It looks like it should pass WADA, but I want to make sure as I plan to do Master's Natz and Worlds this year. Thanks in advance.

It's up to you to verify that every product you ingest doesn't have unapproved substances. You'll have to verify each ingredient with USADA and WADA. I personally stay away from pre-"stacked" products and buy stuff individually.

Quinn8it 01-02-14 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rensho3 (Post 16375956)
I have just started on a keto diet, and am having trouble getting enough protein. I checked out the "pain and anger" site, and other sites, and have kind of settled on Nutrex's Muscle Infusion. I was wondering if anyone has tried it. It looks like it should pass WADA, but I want to make sure as I plan to do Master's Natz and Worlds this year. Thanks in advance.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a protein supplement with anything on the wada list. I also think it is very unlikely to get "tainted" whey protein..

In my experience you notice the products that have questionable ingredients typically have crazy names and make outrageous claims..
big shocker that a product called CRAZE actually contains crystal meth.. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/meth-su...ry?id=20572095

There are a few companies out there that guarantee they are WADA safe- i buy 2 protein powders that are, and also are "all natural" since i dont like artificial sweetners..
at the end of the day Whey Protein is food supplementation- not a performance enhancer.. this is not the product manufactures are going to try to push the limits on..

but as Carleton says- KNOW THE LIST! and stay away from anything on it!

I like Optimum Nutrition products and they guarantee their products are free of illegal substances..

wens 01-02-14 08:07 PM

If you play an NCAA sport your school's compliance officer will read you the riot act anually on supplements of all types, since they're not regulated like food or drugs. You'll get a nice lecture about taking them at your own risk yada yada...just thought I'd throw that out there. I also think there was an olympic sport athlete who recently got popped for something, sent a sealed container of whatever supplement she was taking that was guaranteed to be clean for testing, and had her ban reduced because it tested as being contaminated. I'd at least google whatever brand you're planning on buying and make sure it's not a known issue.

Quinn8it 01-02-14 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wens (Post 16377442)
If you play an NCAA sport your school's compliance officer will read you the riot act anually on supplements of all types, since they're not regulated like food or drugs. You'll get a nice lecture about taking them at your own risk yada yada...just thought I'd throw that out there. I also think there was an olympic sport athlete who recently got popped for something, sent a sealed container of whatever supplement she was taking that was guaranteed to be clean for testing, and had her ban reduced because it tested as being contaminated. I'd at least google whatever brand you're planning on buying and make sure it's not a known issue.

I think it is important to not group whey and other protein with other "Supplements"
at the end of the day, Whey is food- it is a way for busy people to eat more high quality protein with often lower calories and more convenience. I dont think anyone takes whey protein looking for an edge..

to me taking a product called "Arginine Extreme"
with claims on the lable like this:
Quote:

Helps support nutrient delivery to muscles
Provides excellent support for cardio workouts
Helps enhance strength and stamina, especially when used with AdvoCareŽ Muscle Fuel
Aids in maintaining a healthy, efficient immune system
Helps support healthy blood pressure levels already in the normal range
to me that looks like you are looking for an edge.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health..._charges_.html

WADA has also agreed- and will often uphold suspensions that are traced back to tainted products, because the user was "looking for an edge", regardless of whether they set out to take a banned substance or not..

supplement manufactures will often add questionable products to boost effectiveness.. but the market for a product like that is an athlete who is clearly looking for a gain..

wens 01-02-14 08:55 PM

I'd agree that the risks are different...but at the end of the day, regulations say it's a supplement, and regulations don't have the fda or usda responsible for monitoring suppplements, so...there will always be some risk, and it seems to me to make sense to minimize that. http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00682123 is 5 years old, but nothing has really changed in the us.

"Of all of the above mentioned findings, the most significant to the amateur athlete is the contaminated creatine supplement. After the presence of 19-norandrosterone and 19-noretiocholanolone contaminants were discovered in the creatine supplement, it was administered to volunteers to see what the results of a urine sample would be if one was taking the supplement. At the manufacturer's recommended daily intake of 5.25g/day, this led to the excretion of Nandrolone in the urine (19-norandrosterone and 19-noretiocholanolone convert into nandrolone in the body). The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and the IOC has set a maximum allowable limit of 2ng/mL of nandrolone in the urine. In this study, after only 3 days of supplementation, the levels excreted in the urine reached this 2ng/mL level. The authors hypothesized that if an athlete was on the creatine supplement for a longer duration, or taking more then the recommended dosage, a positive drug test could be possible."

http://www.elitesportstherapy.com/St...n-Supplements-

Those aren't whey, but I'd still be careful what brand I chose and look for past problems for that brand before I bought it.

Quinn8it 01-02-14 09:42 PM

thats crazy about Creatine!

you would think that would be something you would hear more about. In "tested" powerlifting federations they are testing at least 10% of lifters at a meet.. youd think that with the popularity of creatine for training and its post weigh in Bloat properties that it would be something you would hear about- if it is really an issue..

wens 01-03-14 06:31 AM

I really don't think it's common, but anything considered a supplement really slips through the cracks in the current laws. It's something I can't believe hasn't been remedied yet, but I guess it doesn't play to either party base and therefore isn't a priority.

rensho3 01-03-14 10:10 AM

Carleton and Quinn, thanks for the advice. I've been competing for quite a while, and I know the rule: "I am responsible for everything I put in my body." It's just that I have never felt the need to improve my nutrition before this, as it always seems to have worked in the past. Of course, old age has caught up to me, so I need to adjust. I have a lot to learn about this, and I respect the opinion of athletes like you who have tried products with no problems. Again, thanks for the help.

Sixty Fiver 01-03-14 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rensho3 (Post 16375956)
I have just started on a keto diet, and am having trouble getting enough protein. I checked out the "pain and anger" site, and other sites, and have kind of settled on Nutrex's Muscle Infusion. I was wondering if anyone has tried it. It looks like it should pass WADA, but I want to make sure as I plan to do Master's Natz and Worlds this year. Thanks in advance.

What are your natural protein sources ?

Velocirapture 01-28-14 12:46 PM

perhaps a dead thread, but came across this article, which seems relevant to this discussion;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...YOUR-life.html

carleton 01-28-14 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 16447607)
perhaps a dead thread, but came across this article, which seems relevant to this discussion;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...YOUR-life.html

I didn't really see a conclusion in the story. Did I miss it? They just talked a lot about stuff but not about actual measured results.

Quinn8it 01-28-14 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16447905)
I didn't really see a conclusion in the story. Did I miss it? They just talked a lot about stuff but not about actual measured results.

Yeh- not a great study..

the one take away for me is the lower performance of the zero-carb diet. A strict Keto Run is needed to train your body to adapt to ketosis- so it will transition to running off fat when it needs to.. but i haven't read anything that advocates strict Keto for anyone who is an athlete.. weight lifters are using Cyclic Keto and more Endurance athletes are using Targeted Keto..

for myself- ive been getting good results running very low carb all day- only getting carbs from vegetables, and then targeting carbs at workout times. it took a little while tinkering with just how many grams of carb i needed for what workout.. but i think i have it pretty dialed in now..

carleton 01-28-14 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16448224)
Yeh- not a great study..

the one take away for me is the lower performance of the zero-carb diet. A strict Keto Run is needed to train your body to adapt to ketosis- so it will transition to running off fat when it needs to.. but i haven't read anything that advocates strict Keto for anyone who is an athlete.. weight lifters are using Cyclic Keto and more Endurance athletes are using Targeted Keto..

for myself- ive been getting good results running very low carb all day- only getting carbs from vegetables, and then targeting carbs at workout times. it took a little while tinkering with just how many grams of carb i needed for what workout.. but i think i have it pretty dialed in now..

That sounds interesting.

I've been pretty good at keeping my carbs at 30g or less per day. I first achieved ketosis about 40 days ago. I've only one real break during that weekend trip where I had to eat off the diet and was out of ketosis for about 3-4 days.

Right before I started on the diet, I started lifting heavy on a regular basis. I assume that I've regained some mass. Jeans are getting tighter. I may have to find a 3rd cut now. I switched to a different cut a year ago when I started to swell up.

So, right now, I only have a net-loss of a couple of pounds. I like to think that I've gained some mass while I've lost some fat. But, I didn't get any "honeymoon" period that many experience when they lose water.

They say don't complain about any lack of weight loss during the first month of Keto. So, I'm still not complaining. I'm down about 3lbs. So that's something I guess.

Quinn8it 01-28-14 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16448258)
That sounds interesting.

I've been pretty good at keeping my carbs at 30g or less per day. I first achieved ketosis about 40 days ago. I've only one real break during that weekend trip where I had to eat off the diet and was out of ketosis for about 3-4 days.

Right before I started on the diet, I started lifting heavy on a regular basis. I assume that I've regained some mass. Jeans are getting tighter. I may have to find a 3rd cut now. I switched to a different cut a year ago when I started to swell up.

So, right now, I only have a net-loss of a couple of pounds. I like to think that I've gained some mass while I've lost some fat. But, I didn't get any "honeymoon" period that many experience when they lose water.

They say don't complain about any lack of weight loss during the first month of Keto. So, I'm still not complaining. I'm down about 3lbs. So that's something I guess.

dragged this one over from another thread because it seams relevant to this thread...
Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16448258)
Check this out. I traveled the week before my PB and had to eat off of the diet a bit. Nothing outrageous. Carbs weren't high, but I was definitely out of ketosis for about 3-4 days total. Then the week that I returned I had those great numbers in the gym and on the ergo.

I've been in ketosis steadily for around weeks leading up to last night when I felt pooped.

Do you think I need regular carb refuels?

if you are not doing carb-ups of some kind, i would suggest you do..

when i was just eating sort-of low carb Paleo i was a fan of the "cheat window", where i would eat pizza and cookies one night (3hr all i could eat), but as ive been running very low carb, that type of re-feed leaves me bloated and a couple pounds heavier for close to 3 days.. .
the targeted carbs are working well- and im feeling really good on the bike and in the gym.. i started out with a maltodextrin based sports drink (hammer Heed) since it was really easy to dose and know the carbs (1 scoop=25g carbs).. so i tweaked my carbs over the course of a few weeks, keeping them all within 30minutes before or after my training.. my after training carbs come from my protein powder that is sweetened with sugar (50g protein=10g carb).after dialing in the amount of carbs, im switching over to Sweet Potato for them- so i can eat less powders and more real food.. the sweet potato does a good job of bringing in some much needed fiber to this diet!!!

carleton 01-28-14 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16448307)
dragged this one over from another thread because it seams relevant to this thread...


if you are not doing carb-ups of some kind, i would suggest you do..

when i was just eating sort-of low carb Paleo i was a fan of the "cheat window", where i would eat pizza and cookies one night (3hr all i could eat), but as ive been running very low carb, that type of re-feed leaves me bloated and a couple pounds heavier for close to 3 days.. .
the targeted carbs are working well- and im feeling really good on the bike and in the gym.. i started out with a maltodextrin based sports drink (hammer Heed) since it was really easy to dose and know the carbs (1 scoop=25g carbs).. so i tweaked my carbs over the course of a few weeks, keeping them all within 30minutes before or after my training.. my after training carbs come from my protein powder that is sweetened with sugar (50g protein=10g carb).after dialing in the amount of carbs, im switching over to Sweet Potato for them- so i can eat less powders and more real food.. the sweet potato does a good job of bringing in some much needed fiber to this diet!!!

Thanks, man.

I'll definitely add some sort of carb reload. I figured that that wouldn't come till later down the road. But, I guess I need it now.

Thanks!


By the way, I've been using the same electrical impedance body fat tester in my local grocery store for a year now. My numbers are on the low end of what I've always seen on that machine. I don't have *that* much faith in electrical impedance body fat testing being that it can be swayed by hydration. But, it's better than nothing.

Maybe I'll shell out the cash for a visit to a Bod Pod.

Quinn8it 01-29-14 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16448258)
So, right now, I only have a net-loss of a couple of pounds. I like to think that I've gained some mass while I've lost some fat. But, I didn't get any "honeymoon" period that many experience when they lose water.

This doesn't sound right.. have you got yourself in a calorie deficit?

carleton 01-29-14 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16452064)
This doesn't sound right.. have you got yourself in a calorie deficit?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I am. I'm consuming roughly 2,500 calories/day. I've never been a big eater. But, it could be that my food estimations are way off using MFP.

This is the experience that I've had with all diets. In the last 5 years, my weight has been within a 10-15 (mostly 10) lb range. That's even counting the times when I'd lose 3-5 lbs of water on a long road ride or long race day or being dehydrated from drinking booz). No mater what my diet, training volume, race volume, road rides, trainer rides, gym regimen, no gym all bike regimen, muscle mass, etc... It's a mystery.

I did have a "honeymoon" phase the first time I tried keto, but that's when I didn't really maintain steady ketosis (measuring via the ketostix). I lost about 8lbs of water weight in the first week or so, then it stalled...but I was still within that 10lb range I'm always in.

Maybe I'm sleep eating :(

On a related note, I suffered through watching my lady make a huge tray of fudge brownies for her job last night. The house smelled like suffering.

Velocirapture 01-30-14 02:21 AM

Carleton, do you measure your portions with a scale? Weightloss is much harder when you are insulin resistant, but your low carb approach really should still work :-/

carleton 01-30-14 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 16452453)
Carleton, do you measure your portions with a scale? Weightloss is much harder when you are insulin resistant, but your low carb approach really should still work :-/

No, I don't. I just estimate.

Velocirapture 01-30-14 03:17 AM

1 Attachment(s)
(disclaimer - this picture is not intended to represent anyone on this list, or to cause insult or affront, it came across my path moments after reading this thread and seemed apt)

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=362075

Velocirapture 01-30-14 04:06 AM

Oh, and on the the daily mail article; definitely not anything scientific about their 'study' but an interesting anecdote and food for thought on this topic, from an athletes' perspective. :)

Quinn8it 01-30-14 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16452464)
No, I don't. I just estimate.

im just going to fire off a couple of random thoughts on this- since ive had a good run recently: 20lbs in 60days (205 on dec1st/currently 185)

1) at least weigh your food and track everything you eat for a few days- you might be surprised at the places you are getting calories.
2) high fat is great for getting your keto stix to change color- but fat is a high source of calories- it can knock you out of weight loss range fast.
3) keto is not magic- losing weight takes a caloric deficit
4) throw away the keto stix
5) add in 2 very low calorie and low fat days a week
*start with Protein Sparing Modified Fast- only low carb protein shakes all day.. do these on rest days
*add in a low cal low fat day- skinless chicken breast and veggies
-cycling calories helps kick start the metabolism..
6) go ahead and do a hydrostatic body fat test- here its $50 and $30 for repeats.. in addition to learning your body fat percentage, you will get a good idea of your metabolic rate- which will help you figure out maintenance calories..

carleton 01-30-14 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16455321)
im just going to fire off a couple of random thoughts on this- since ive had a good run recently: 20lbs in 60days (205 on dec1st/currently 185)

1) at least weigh your food and track everything you eat for a few days- you might be surprised at the places you are getting calories.
2) high fat is great for getting your keto stix to change color- but fat is a high source of calories- it can knock you out of weight loss fast.
3) keto is not magic- losing weight takes a caloric deficit
4) throw away the keto stix
5) add in 2 very low calorie and low fat days a week
*start with Protein Sparing Modified Fast- only low carb protein shakes all day.. do these on rest days
*add in a low cal low fat day- skinless chicken breast and veggies
-cycling calories helps kick the metabolism..
6) go ahead and do a hydrostatic body fat test- here its $50 and $30 for repeats.. in addition to learning your body fat percentage, you will get a good idea of your metabolic rate- which will help you figure out maintenance calories..

Thanks!

I suspect that the heavy cream might be part of the problem. I'm going to follow this and let you know how it works.

Quinn8it 01-30-14 09:35 PM

me to my wife at the end of a Protein Sparing Modified Fast day:

"i just want to go to sleep so that i can wake up and eat food"

they are hard days! i've added some skinless chicken breast at this point.. and will drop them for "low cal/low fat" days very soon.. since im basically at goal weight..


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