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  1. #251
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    First time doing 5x5 for press today. Holy crap, ow.

  2. #252
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    Squatting over 100kg for the first time since October. Feels good man.

  3. #253
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    Squatting over 100kg for the first time since October. Feels good man.
    So Good! Right? congrats on the comeback!

    i was fighting to hold onto my weight after dropping a good amount of bodyweight... i was doing well with maintaining and actually some tiny micro-loads (1lb a week) then i got sick and missed 2.5 weeks of training.. ive lost some strength for sure.. not sure how bad it is.. trying to fight to hold on to it- but the sets are really hard.

  4. #254
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Like its a workout just doing the movements haha.
    This was, and continues to be, a revelation to me. Along with the related notion that these "non-aerobic" workouts actually get the heart rate up and DO translate (at least a little) to endurance. These aspects have transformed my previously naive opinion about muscle heads just being strong and not in good general condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    First time doing 5x5 for press today. Holy crap, ow.
    I just started 5x5 (once/week) as well. I did 5x5 for a couple weeks when I first started, but that was beginner weight. Quite taxing... in a good, balanced way. That is, seems to be a sweet spot for leveraging volume without hypertrophy.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    So Good! Right? congrats on the comeback!

    i was fighting to hold onto my weight after dropping a good amount of bodyweight... i was doing well with maintaining and actually some tiny micro-loads (1lb a week) then i got sick and missed 2.5 weeks of training.. ive lost some strength for sure.. not sure how bad it is.. trying to fight to hold on to it- but the sets are really hard.
    BW Loss seems to effect everyone in different ways. When I came down from 210+ training for strongman, my DL took the biggest hit. I never could seem to break my all-time PR at the lower BW. Granted my lift ratio was much improved, and the squat progressed, but the pull never did cooperate.

    Might be time to get on the ol' % train?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    This was, and continues to be, a revelation to me. Along with the related notion that these "non-aerobic" workouts actually get the heart rate up and DO translate (at least a little) to endurance. These aspects have transformed my previously naive opinion about muscle heads just being strong and not in good general condition.
    Rep PRs in the squat are a pretty unique type of suck.

  6. #256
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    BW Loss seems to effect everyone in different ways. When I came down from 210+ training for strongman, my DL took the biggest hit. I never could seem to break my all-time PR at the lower BW. Granted my lift ratio was much improved, and the squat progressed, but the pull never did cooperate.
    Yep!
    when I competed as a 198 I considered myself a Deadlifter.. My squat was solid- but Dead was better..
    This year when I cut down to 181- my dead took a big hit, as my squat went up..
    Now- if you compare me to other 181/masters my squat is clearly my standout lift

  7. #257
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    What do you guys think about trying to match hip and knee angles when lifting to the same movement of the pedal stroke? I was thinking about that when doing single leg presses and how far to go down/extend. But is there an easy/accurate way to even measure such a thing?

  8. #258
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    What do you guys think about trying to match hip and knee angles when lifting to the same movement of the pedal stroke? I was thinking about that when doing single leg presses and how far to go down/extend. But is there an easy/accurate way to even measure such a thing?
    When I go into the weight room, it is to develop muscles to produce force the best possible way. For me, this means making the muscles produce force through the full range of motion. I leave the bike specific muscle development for my bike. Why be redundant?

    Weight room for full range of motion work; bike for specificity. The problem with only training weights is you don't get bike specific movements. The problem with only training bike is you don't get full range of motion development and so develop muscle imbalances. So I do both with the plan to vary the frequency of each as my needs change through the season.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  9. #259
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    ^^^^ that!!

    Nicely said Brian

  10. #260
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    When I go into the weight room, it is to develop muscles to produce force the best possible way. For me, this means making the muscles produce force through the full range of motion. I leave the bike specific muscle development for my bike. Why be redundant?

    Weight room for full range of motion work; bike for specificity. The problem with only training weights is you don't get bike specific movements. The problem with only training bike is you don't get full range of motion development and so develop muscle imbalances. So I do both with the plan to vary the frequency of each as my needs change through the season.
    I disagree...sort of.

    From someone who knows better than me, Craig Colduck:
    Single-leg Press is our bread and butter. Different foot and hip positions for different phases of pedal stroke, standing, seated, etc. I use high speed video to match joint angles and velocities for each rider. We mainly do it ballistically for power - throw the sled as far as you can - at different percentages of max to match up to different muscle contraction velocities for different phases of the acceleration (different cadences). We do a lot of single-leg plyos on boxes, stairs, bunjee sleds, etc during speed phases. Strength and power gains are extremely specific and do not necessarily transfer well. When Ryan Bayley beat Sean Eadie in the Commonwealth Games sprint final in 2002, Sean was tripling 250kg for a parallel back squat and Ryan was tripling 120kg On single-leg press, they were much closer (20kg) and so was the racing.
    Here it is in practice:




    Also, it is my understanding that the guy who holds track records all across the USA in sprint events (Mansker) did the vast majority of his work outside of the gym.

    So, my point is more that: There are more ways to skin cats than there are cats. Find the best way for you.

  11. #261
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    Well put! I really am new to lifting in general so just figured I would ask this to a cyclist.

  12. #262
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    I read that point on UP! Up! UP! which got me thinking, but I dont really see how you can measure speed and angles without a lot of assistance. Also with speeds that is not a constant anyway, unless you are focused on standing starts perhaps.


    Im liking the 1 leg presses, even though they make me feel like a weak little girl. The guy beside me had what looked like 20x45kg plates on his, granted he did 2 reps with both legs.

  13. #263
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    I read that point on UP! Up! UP! which got me thinking, but I dont really see how you can measure speed and angles without a lot of assistance. Also with speeds that is not a constant anyway, unless you are focused on standing starts perhaps.


    Im liking the 1 leg presses, even though they make me feel like a weak little girl. The guy beside me had what looked like 20x45kg plates on his, granted he did 2 reps with both legs.
    1) There is no best way for everyone. There is only the best way for an individual.

    2) You also have to figure out leg and back angles when you squat. Do this with the eye of a gym partner or your cell phone camera. I do single leg press and on the particular rack that I'm using, I have to keep my foot more forward than normal on the platform to get the stress through the knee the same as on the bike. If you don't, you'll get that early-season knee ache on the top of your knees.

    3) Don't worry about how many plates you move in the gym...on ANY exercise. The purpose of gym work is to put enough strain on your muscles to stimulate supercompensation (growth) later. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU DO IT (for the most part):



    4) Progression takes time. Right now I'm single-leg pressing weights that I double-leg pressed in December. It's a slow progression.

    Last edited by carleton; 04-23-14 at 11:29 AM.

  14. #264
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    While we are on the subject, I really think that an athlete's body type plays a really big role in what training methodolgy will be most effective.

    Consider the variables:
    - Limb length (arms, legs)
    - Lean Body Mass
    - Muscle Fiber Type

    Then add in extrinsic factors:
    - Work Schedules
    - Family schedules
    - Access to gym equipment
    - Access to a velodrome
    - Weather

    There are so many variables. I think the journey is finding what works and (more importantly) what doesn't work for the individual.

    The biggest skill that an athlete can learn is to pay attention to his/her body and mind. Pay attention to the body to see what it is (and is not) responding to. Pay attention to the mind and make honest no-BS assessments.

  15. #265
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    ...
    Also, it is my understanding that the guy who holds track records all across the USA in sprint events (Mansker) did the vast majority of his work outside of the gym.
    ...
    He also blew up his knee and has now sold all his stuff, retired permanently from the sport at his prime. So I'm not sure if his program is the right inspiration for training 34 year old me.
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  16. #266
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    ...

    The biggest skill that an athlete can learn is to pay attention to his/her body and mind. Pay attention to the body to see what it is (and is not) responding to. Pay attention to the mind and make honest no-BS assessments.
    I do think this is the best advice. And bodies change as they get older too. What worked at 25yo might not work at 35. My only point was, why be redundant? If you are intent on specificity, ride more, gym less. Doesn't get more specific than pedaling a bike.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    1) There is no best way for everyone. There is only the best way for an individual.
    While this is very true, don't focus too much on that fact that we are all different. The same basic rules will apply to almost everyone ... and it can get complex when figuring out what is a general rule and what is a specific rule. I think it boils down to the basic 80/20 rule. 80% of good advice will be good for everyone; it is figuring out where you pull out the 20% to apply to only yourself that matter. Well that and sorting out the crap advice that only applies to maybe one person, there is a lot of that too.

    Intervals ... good for all, which intervals ... that depends.
    Strength training ... good for all ... how to do it ... well that depends.
    Aerobic training ... good for even sprinters ... how much and how to do it, again depends.

    We all have the same 3 energy systems to train and will all pull from all 3 in any event, even sprints and endurance road races.

    I am looking forward to my winter off season and seeing what some additional strength training might do to me for my first go at the 45+ age group in 2015.

  18. #268
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    He also blew up his knee and has now sold all his stuff, retired permanently from the sport at his prime. So I'm not sure if his program is the right inspiration for training 34 year old me.
    Oh, man. I didn't know that about his knee.

    I really wish there were a system in the US to support young track athletes so that they can train.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I do think this is the best advice. And bodies change as they get older too. What worked at 25yo might not work at 35.
    Tell me about it. I used to do a few 2-a-day workouts per week when I worked from home. I can't really say if it made me any faster/stronger than 1-a-day workouts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    My only point was, why be redundant? If you are intent on specificity, ride more, gym less. Doesn't get more specific than pedaling a bike.
    I'm not intent on specificity. If anything, my only intention is to somehow get appropriate strain on the muscles to produce supercompensation, whether you are squatting, doing hill-climbs, plyometrics, leg press, standing starts, something, anything.

    We should recognize that no plan has emerged as head-and-shoulders above the others. It's because the body is highly adaptable. So, it's best to pick the program that works with your life situation that is not adaptable (try as I might, my boss won't let work from the track between efforts).

  19. #269
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    Intervals ... good for all, which intervals ... that depends.
    Strength training ... good for all ... how to do it ... well that depends.
    Aerobic training ... good for even sprinters ... how much and how to do it, again depends.

    We all have the same 3 energy systems to train and will all pull from all 3 in any event, even sprints and endurance road races.
    Exactly!

    Look at the bigger picture. Focus on the "What", not the "How". Gains ("What" result you want) can be achieved via a multitude of ways ("How" you do it).

  20. #270
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    One knock I have on too much specificity is there is a feedback mechanism as far as force production goes. If, for example, you never develop your hamstrings into your pedaling motion, more pedaling will never develop your hamstrings. If you strengthen them, through weight training for instance, all of the sudden you now have strong hamstrings and you can incorporate those muscles into your pedal stroke. This changes how you produce power on the bike! And it's not a result you'll get to using principles of specificity.

    Realize that specificity is a training concept ported from endurance road cycling. Most road cyclists are not training muscle development, they are training an energy system. There are lots of ways to train your aerobic energy systems, and the best way is the one most specific to your sport. But for muscle development, I don't think specificity is the be-all and end-all of training; it might actually hurt you by promoting muscle imbalances and causing exploding knees, for example.

    After all, we talk about partial squats and how bad they are for knees... what is a standing start but a partial squat? It stands to reason that if all you do for strength training are standing starts (or other force-pedaling motions), you might be developing muscle imbalances and the associated joint injuries.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    One knock I have on too much specificity is there is a feedback mechanism as far as force production goes. If, for example, you never develop your hamstrings into your pedaling motion, more pedaling will never develop your hamstrings. If you strengthen them, through weight training for instance, all of the sudden you now have strong hamstrings and you can incorporate those muscles into your pedal stroke. This changes how you produce power on the bike! And it's not a result you'll get to using principles of specificity.

    Realize that specificity is a training concept ported from endurance road cycling. Most road cyclists are not training muscle development, they are training an energy system. There are lots of ways to train your aerobic energy systems, and the best way is the one most specific to your sport. But for muscle development, I don't think specificity is the be-all and end-all of training; it might actually hurt you by promoting muscle imbalances and causing exploding knees, for example.

    After all, we talk about partial squats and how bad they are for knees... what is a standing start but a partial squat? It stands to reason that if all you do for strength training are standing starts (or other force-pedaling motions), you might be developing muscle imbalances and the associated joint injuries.
    To play Devil's Advocate:

    I trained a full off-season only on the bike. There are training efforts that one can do to focus strengthen the hamstrings:

    - Grinding big gears seated at low RPMs.
    - Single-leg efforts
    - Standing Starts (I've seen newbies pull hamstrings the first time they try proper standing starts for the reasons you state above).
    - Focusing on the bottom and upstrokes of the pedal stroke.

  22. #272
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    ...
    I trained a full off-season only on the bike. There are training efforts that one can do to focus strengthen the hamstrings:
    ...
    First, you've already had a lot of weight training. You already have strong hamstrings. I'm talking about people like myself who transitioned into sprinting from road racing.

    Second, I'm talking about using your hamstrings the way you do in a squat or deadlift (as a hip extensor), not the way you do when trying to pull up on the pedals (knee flexor). I tried pulling up on the pedals last season and I started to have a bit of knee problems. The knee joint, I'm of the opinion now, is not meant to take pulling forces. The feet don't have opposable big toes, and pulling with your feet with lots of force is something that is just never really done by a human in the natural state of things.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  23. #273
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    There is no doubt there are muscle imbalances for cyclists, I have the girly arms and legs like a club to prove it. I think things like squats should be done to full extension as they are designed to work the whole body anyway, not simulate standing starts. I think the UPUPUP! book even describes them as supporting exercises so support the back and core, more than pure pedal strength (which is what they use the leg press for). So it would make more sense to do those in the full motion, especially when considering injury prevention.


    Just for my own info, Im going to try and measure my leg angles on the bike and just SEE what they are on the press, as its really hard to tell sitting halfway upside down. Thinking some plexiglass, ruler and markers like my bike fitter uses.

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    First, you've already had a lot of weight training. You already have strong hamstrings. I'm talking about people like myself who transitioned into sprinting from road racing.

    Second, I'm talking about using your hamstrings the way you do in a squat or deadlift (as a hip extensor), not the way you do when trying to pull up on the pedals (knee flexor). I tried pulling up on the pedals last season and I started to have a bit of knee problems. The knee joint, I'm of the opinion now, is not meant to take pulling forces. The feet don't have opposable big toes, and pulling with your feet with lots of force is something that is just never really done by a human in the natural state of things.
    Welcome to Lombard's Paradox!

    Lombard's paradox describes a paradoxical muscular contraction in humans. When rising to stand from a sitting or squatting position, both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time, despite their being antagonists to each other.

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Just for my own info, Im going to try and measure my leg angles on the bike and just SEE what they are on the press, as its really hard to tell sitting halfway upside down. Thinking some plexiglass, ruler and markers like my bike fitter uses.
    If you have an iPhone/iPad, use this app:


    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bike...710935084?mt=8


    Review by DC Rainmaker. It's very tri-centric, but you can see the features.

    I've used it to measure my leg, arm, back, and foot angles.

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