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  1. #276
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    I have some friends who LOVE that thing. Unfortunately I've never owned a phone in my life and just use what my work gives me, which has been old and heavy blackberries

    Might just try and take pictures and analyze it post

  2. #277
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Welcome to Lombard's Paradox!
    It's only a paradox to those who don't understand linkages. Both muscles cross two joints (hip and knee). Depending on how the joints are braced and the joint angles, they can either actuate the knee or the hip. When rising from a seated to standing, the hamstring has more leverage on the hip than on the knee and vice verse the quads. It's kind of fascinating once you get into it.

    The key to full depth squats is actuating the hamstring to act as a hip extensor, because at full depth, the quad doesn't have much leverage on the knee. People who sit all day don't naturally do this, and I think most roadies don't do this either. My point about specificity is if you have trained all your life to not use your hamstrings as a hip extensor when pedaling, then you are not going to get this muscle more involved on the downstroke by simply pedaling longer or with more force.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  3. #278
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    Body Balance is a critical part of any good training program. I think both Brian and Carleton are right and both seem to be circling the idea that you need to ensure you body does not get out of whack in any one area. Back, Core, various components of the legs, arms, even the neck muscles come into play in making you a better cyclists or athlete of any kind. Making sure you take the time to develop each muscle group so that it does not throw your body out of whack is critical to any long term injury free training program. Taking the time to find your personal weakness areas and place some time just makes your training more efficient, and one year to the next this might change.

    This is where variety rules and those who are doing lots of different things will beat out those who get too specific, but again everything in proper proportion. No need for a 500 pound bench press for a cyclist, but you still need core strength and the ability to hold/pull on the bars and change a cog.

  4. #279
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    ...and change a cog.
    Not if you are on Bike Central...

    (sorry, inside joke)
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  5. #280
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    While this is very true, don't focus too much on that fact that we are all different. The same basic rules will apply to almost everyone ... and it can get complex when figuring out what is a general rule and what is a specific rule. I think it boils down to the basic 80/20 rule. 80% of good advice will be good for everyone; it is figuring out where you pull out the 20% to apply to only yourself that matter. Well that and sorting out the crap advice that only applies to maybe one person, there is a lot of that too.

    Intervals ... good for all, which intervals ... that depends.
    Strength training ... good for all ... how to do it ... well that depends.
    Aerobic training ... good for even sprinters ... how much and how to do it, again depends.

    We all have the same 3 energy systems to train and will all pull from all 3 in any event, even sprints and endurance road races.

    I am looking forward to my winter off season and seeing what some additional strength training might do to me for my first go at the 45+ age group in 2015.
    +1 Wow, I wanted to agree with jmi on a post and this thread has exploded and I am a couple of pages behind.

    I like the simplicity of this model. And I spend most of my time on the ATP-CP and Lactate systems but I do aerobic workouts as well . I use strength training for core and upper body with very limited leg work.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Not if you are on Bike Central...

    (sorry, inside joke)
    I found that very funny.

    I have also found that by changing my position on the bike and doing lots of out of the saddle work on the road I can work a large number of muscle groups that are never touched while sitting in the same spot on the track or the rollers - climbs and roadwork are very important if you are not doing gym work, IMO. I also train on a bike with tennis shoes and 150+ pounds of deadweight, aka kids, behind me - variety. I have been too lazy to hit the gym yet, but have been reading this thread with interest and researching lots of gym based training to possibly work into my winter training for 2015. It would be so much more fun mentally to hit the gym on a 35 and rainy day or 20 degree snowstorm than trying to figure out how to bike in that weather or on the rollers - both of those suck for me.

  7. #282
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    Fun conversation

  8. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I found that very funny.

    I have also found that by changing my position on the bike and doing lots of out of the saddle work on the road I can work a large number of muscle groups that are never touched while sitting in the same spot on the track or the rollers - climbs and roadwork are very important if you are not doing gym work, IMO. I also train on a bike with tennis shoes and 150+ pounds of deadweight, aka kids, behind me - variety. I have been too lazy to hit the gym yet, but have been reading this thread with interest and researching lots of gym based training to possibly work into my winter training for 2015. It would be so much more fun mentally to hit the gym on a 35 and rainy day or 20 degree snowstorm than trying to figure out how to bike in that weather or on the rollers - both of those suck for me.
    Coming from the road Im not actually hating the gym too much. I can get a pretty good workout (it hurts all over) in 45mins including warm/cool, and as a road rider anything less than 3hrs is considered a "quick" workout. So its convenient if you are someone with a pretty solid routine as it is.

  9. #284
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Just one anecdote/data point of an enduro trying to keep up weights during the season. Simplified dashboard from my training log. All the weights sessions include squats and bench/ovhd (A/B); deads less than every other session. The low saddle time still makes me squirm. But we'll see how it goes.


  10. #285
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    I'm impressed with the number of weights sessions. (not so much with the saddle time ) let us know how it works for you, in season.
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  11. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Just one anecdote/data point of an enduro trying to keep up weights during the season. Simplified dashboard from my training log. All the weights sessions include squats and bench/ovhd (A/B); deads less than every other session. The low saddle time still makes me squirm. But we'll see how it goes.
    Thanks! I love seeing what others are doing.

  12. #287
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    Vance as long as the intensity is high I think 5-8hrs on the bike is pretty reasonable. I went from 15-18hrs/week in winter base miles and am down to <8hrs a week now. However my pace is much higher, the time on the bike is either racing or a 60-90min hammerfest/intervals. Im doing about 1/2 of the mileage I did at this point last year looking at my training logs, but none of my rides have felt easy!

    The only way to hit 10+hrs on the bike is to have lots of long ass rides at a very low intensity (relative to the track/racing). Train for what you are going to compete in, even us enduros don't race on the track for more than a few mins at a time. Im looking to avoid stage/road racing this year for this same reason, I'd rather keep it short and intense.

  13. #288
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
    Vance as long as the intensity is high I think 5-8hrs on the bike is pretty reasonable. I went from 15-18hrs/week in winter base miles and am down to <8hrs a week now. However my pace is much higher, the time on the bike is either racing or a 60-90min hammerfest/intervals. Im doing about 1/2 of the mileage I did at this point last year looking at my training logs, but none of my rides have felt easy!
    Couldn't agree more. Intensity is not only (vastly) more efficient, but I'm starting to believe it is superior overall and in almost every way.

  14. #289
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Couldn't agree more. Intensity is not only (vastly) more efficient, but I'm starting to believe it is superior overall and in almost every way.
    Isn't there a school of thought in the road racing world that for "Base Miles", shorter 1-2hr rides with slightly more intensity are just as effective as long 3-4 hour rides with low intensity?

  15. #290
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    I saw the most cringe-inducing, frighteningly horrible dead lift form of my life yesterday in my gym. Two young tech-bros (new SF demographic term), both with bad form but the one guys was just off the charts, and both were totally oblivious. The one is heading for certain injury if the weight keeps progressing and he doesn't get help. They were strong, and (very badly) lifting more than I can, but despite that I felt a moral twinge to intervene. Not wanting to be 'that guy', I held it in and let them stumble on their way. What do y'all do in these situations?

  16. #291
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    I saw the most cringe-inducing, frighteningly horrible dead lift form of my life yesterday in my gym. Two young tech-bros (new SF demographic term), both with bad form but the one guys was just off the charts, and both were totally oblivious. The one is heading for certain injury if the weight keeps progressing and he doesn't get help. They were strong, and (very badly) lifting more than I can, but despite that I felt a moral twinge to intervene. Not wanting to be 'that guy', I held it in and let them stumble on their way. What do y'all do in these situations?
    - Get out your phone.
    - Dial "9-1-1" (don't press "Call", yet)
    - Watch the guy tear something awful.
    - Press "Call".

    I've seen it at my gym, too. And yeah, it's usually two guys leading each other astray.

    Just last night, I watched two guys do high-bar back squats using the Smith Rack (which isn't unforgivable) with like 95lbs on it. But, the guy took "Ass to Grass" very seriously. His butt was literally about 1" off of the ground on each rep.

    (Smith Rack:)

  17. #292
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    At least your dude was keeping it light. These guys were over 400 lbs and that's enough to really hurt you. It looked like a ****ing train wreck was about to go down with this dude's spine. Every single vertebra was collapsed as he progressed through the lift to lock out. His spine was doing 'the worm' under the bar. Scary, very scary.

  18. #293
    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Isn't there a school of thought in the road racing world that for "Base Miles", shorter 1-2hr rides with slightly more intensity are just as effective as long 3-4 hour rides with low intensity?
    Essentially breaks down to whether you believe you should base your training off scientific studies or off the model of what the most successful cyclists have done.

    Clearly it's not that simple, but that's the gist of the divide.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  19. #294
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Two things:

    1. I see it parroted a lot that deadlifts are pretty stressful on the central nervous system. But I don't see much explication of that. Why? How do we know? And what are the symptoms of stressing your CNS?

    2. I'm reading Starting Strength. Holy crap Rippetoe is sexist. I was impressed that plenty of information is also geared toward women, and there are women in the pictures - ie the book isn't just directed at men - and then he starts saying things like "If you insist on using gloves, make sure they match your purse" and then, less subtly, "if you do XXXXX, you are a *****."
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  20. #295
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    When deads get heavy- say double body weight for a 5-set they start to get really taxing, and in my experience progress can often do a loop where you peak with a heavy weight and then begin to lose strength and weight goes backwards.
    I can't necessarily define the symptoms of a fatigued CNS, but I can tell you that heavy dead lift sets start to affect my lower back- not necessarily affecting the pull, or feeling like an injury, but tight and sore after..

    Maybe one of the more educated lifters here can comment of the CNS stuff

  21. #296
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    I've never seen strong evidence to support it. If it exists, I'd like to see it.

    Anecdotal here, I'll happily admit that grinding a PR deadlift is probably one of the most physically taxing experiences I've had.
    I feel like a lot of people confuse being physically exhausted with "CNS fatigue". While they're obviously linked I have a hard time believing the relationship is linear and directly proportionate. But I'm no expert, of course. And the vast majority of people (that I've seen), aren't using nearly enough volume to illicit legitimate adrenal/CNS fatigue, imo. The human body is incredibly adaptive and we have lots of anecdotal evidence of guys training with what seems like ludicrous levels of volume relative to intensity. They didn't fall out of their mom like that, it is a trainable quality, and they've trained it.
    A lot of people hit that first volume barrier and simply cannot cope with the physical fatigue and write it off as overtraining/CNS/the vernal equinox/whatever.

    Rambling a bit. No answer of use there, sorry.

  22. #297
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanAVL View Post
    A lot of people hit that first volume barrier and simply cannot cope with the physical fatigue and write it off as overtraining/CNS/the vernal equinox/whatever.
    .
    Thanks Dan! Good stuff!

    that bit I quoted is rampant in Cycling!!!



    I've also heard it called "BPS" (inside joke nobody will get)

  23. #298
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    that bit I quoted is rampant in Cycling!!!
    I've also heard it called "BPS" (inside joke nobody will get)

  24. #299
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    I hope that doesn't stand for Baby Puke Syndrome...

  25. #300
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Like
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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