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  1. #126
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    noglider, you live in queens, right?
    got a basement or a garage or something?
    storage unit?
    you're gonna need something more than a living room or a hallway.

    bare minimum, you can build your own squat rack... but it is bare minimum.

    once you get past the bare minimum, well then, Quinn's post stands.

    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  2. #127
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    I'll add to this-- I never have a spotter. In a good squat cage it's not really necessary,though it would be nice. This also helps me keep the weights "realistic" in terms of loading.
    wanted to speak to this- as i think Babypuke is on to something when he mentions "realistic" bar loads...

    i think there is a common misconception that an effective strength program is full of "at the limit efforts" with tons of catastrophic misses...
    the reality is that a good program with progressive weight gains has you lifting weights you can lift- and the execution of these hard but doable sets is what creates the adaption to allow you to add a little more weight and be able to hit all your reps..

    i can count the number of missed squats in a year on one hand- and most of them are from when i come out of Track Training mode and do higher weight/lower rep work for powerlifting..

  3. #128
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    noglider, you live in queens, right?
    got a basement or a garage or something?
    storage unit?
    you're gonna need something more than a living room or a hallway.

    bare minimum, you can build your own squat rack... but it is bare minimum.

    once you get past the bare minimum, well then, Quinn's post stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brawlo
    If you really want to go with a home style setup and you will be on your own, invest in a power cage style setup. They have the safety catches that Quinn mentions. I have gone down this route because every gym in my town is frequented by meatheads who like to pretend to lift heavy and occupy the few pieces of equipment I need for extended periods while they chat and check their phones. For the price of 1 1/2 yrs gym membership at the time I purchased a brand new Chinese power cage after doing a bit of research to know I wasn't getting plain junk. It came with a bench and 190kg of weights plus the bar. I found the limits of the bar last winter when I bent it a tad, but other than that, it has served me well and saved me a lot of money on gym memberships. A new higher quality bar will not be cheap, but will still see me coming out on top over the gym costs.

    I have the privelege of having a large shed to play in and so the room occupied is fine. A nice concrete floor with a couple of heavy rubber gym floor mats to take care of the dropping weights.
    I am with both of you:
    Brawlo- i lift at home for the same reasons you do-

    Queerpunk- When my wife kicks me out and takes all my money- ill be squatting out of some Home Depot buckets outside my trailer- count on that!

    but...

    I cant recommend someone with no lifting experience to begin lifting at home. its a big expense anyway you get there- and lifting may not be for him.. and its dangerous.. squatting at home in a cage is not dangerous. but throw in a totally inexperienced lifter who may be alone- its not a great scenario IMHO

  4. #129
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I think joining a no-frills gym (the kind a typical girl wouldn't set foot in) would be a good idea. These gyms usually come with no hassles, frills, or absurd contracts, and are relatively cheap. But, you may or may not have one in your part of town.

    As for a home setup, you can do a quite a few things to create a nice conditioning program:

    - Pushups

    - Dumbbell bench press (maybe get one of those adjustable benches that lays flat or sits upright like a chair).


    - Dumbbell Bulgarian Split Squat or Single Leg Squat:
    Basically, instead of having all of your upper-body weight and lots of weight on a barbell spread out over 2 legs (a squat), you take all of your upper-body weight and a fraction of the barbell weight and do single leg squats. They take some getting used to at first, but you can feel them working the necessary muscles.:


    - Dumbbell Dead Lift:


    - Dumbbell Romanian Dead Lift



    You can also do on-the-bike strength work either on a home trainer or doing hill repeats.

  5. #130
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    oh man!
    did you really just post those videos here?

  6. #131
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Also consider:

    - Plyometric box jumps to train explosiveness. Don't be put off by the young guys on Youtube jumping on to high boxes. You can get what you need from lower boxes and just strive to get as high as possible over it as you get stronger.

    You won't need a box this high to start:



    You can find gym quality plyo boxes at fitness supply stores or on craigslist. I bought a set of 3 for like $100 2 years ago and gave them away when I moved.

  7. #132
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    oh man!
    did you really just post those videos here?
    They are random videos man. Don't have a heart attack.

    Believe it or not, Jennie had me do many of those and many more exercise that were away from the barbell as part of the conditioning program. I'd have something like 6-8 exercises per gym day and only one of them was using a barbell...and this was on a Sprint/Kilo program.

    EDIT:

    Do you have any specific objections or are you objecting to someone suggesting something that isn't Starting Strength?
    Last edited by carleton; 02-17-14 at 10:13 PM.

  8. #133
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    I really appreciate your directness and your well-considered response. I'll give your approach a try. Thanks so much for your perspective. I'll use it to up myself, and maybe I'll see some of you on the racing scene. I'll join a gym and learn about all this stuff.

    There, ya see how easy it is to change my mind?

    You guys seem as helpful as the C&V gang, where I've been hanging out for about five years. Yeesh, is it that long? So thank you.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  9. #134
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    Why do the formal lifting?
    If you are starting out and want to get faster on the bike first focus on the on bike work - starts and over gear. Then look up body weight conditioning for core and upper body. Single leg squats or find some sand bags or water buckets at the hardware store if you want some extra weight. Make it harder not heavier and it should get you thought at least the first year or two.

  10. #135
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    I really appreciate your directness and your well-considered response. I'll give your approach a try. Thanks so much for your perspective. I'll use it to up myself, and maybe I'll see some of you on the racing scene. I'll join a gym and learn about all this stuff.

    There, ya see how easy it is to change my mind?

    You guys seem as helpful as the C&V gang, where I've been hanging out for about five years. Yeesh, is it that long? So thank you.
    Good luck man.

    - Find a good gym.
    - Get some instruction on how to do the basic lifts. Especially the squat. The squat isn't hard. It's just that most people think they are doing it right when they aren't. A good gym will have someone on staff to help you. That's their job.
    - Make sure that they have a squat rack, and my favorite, a leg press machine.
    - Learn to critique yourself. Set your camera or smart phone up to video your sets every now and then and see if you are going deep enough.
    - Avoid an annual contract if you can. ALL gym memberships are negotiable. When the race season starts, your lifting will probably go down to 1-2x/week.
    - And take it easy the first 2-3 weeks. Progression will come quick, but all it takes is for 1 small under developed muscle to make you hurt for a while
    - Understand that you'll be sore and tight after the first few workouts. This is normal (assuming that it's not sharp pain). It's called the "Adaptation Phase". You'll want to skip a day. Don't. Working out will actually make you feel better. It will go away after a week or so.

  11. #136
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    I'm starting to look at these videos. I really like the one in post #131 . That looks like fun, and I'd be good at it. As it think I said, I'm 53 years old. These guys' youth doesn't intimidate me much. It's their size. I'm pretty thin from the waist up, so I'll be building myself up there. I already have big thighs with good muscle tone. They almost never burn under maximum effort. But I'm sure I have a long way to go at building strength in my legs, too.

    I'm in the west village, downtown manhattan. We have everything here. I'm sure I can find that kind of gym here.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  12. #137
    Senior Member
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    [QUOTE They almost never burn under maximum effort. [/QUOTE]


    I'll have what he's drinking, then!

  13. #138
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    I'll have what he's drinking, then!
    Tell me about it.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    I cant recommend someone with no lifting experience to begin lifting at home. its a big expense anyway you get there- and lifting may not be for him.. and its dangerous.. squatting at home in a cage is not dangerous. but throw in a totally inexperienced lifter who may be alone- its not a great scenario IMHO
    This is a really good point. If you haven't lifted before, I would actually suggest you skip the home gym and pay up for a proper gym membership, at least in the short term. I have come from lifting heavy while I was at university with plenty of help and instruction. I was lifting 100kg heavier in deadlifts than I am now and that's why I'm comfortable to do this on my own at home.

    Ask around and find somewhere you can go and rub shoulders with guys that can help you and assist you with technique. It may cost you a bit more in the short term, but less time out with injuries and possible medical expenses may see it pay dividends in the long run.

  15. #140
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Do you have any specific objections or are you objecting to someone suggesting something that isn't Starting Strength?
    I object to strength work that is not focused on making people strong.


    bench with barbells is fine- possibly an improvement on the barbell version- but its not a lift id put on the must do for cyclist, and it gets really hard to get into the starting position once the weight gets to where it should be for it to be worth your time..

    as far as Bulgarians- ive done them- prescribed by a coach who came up with your coach- i just happen to object to a technically difficult exercise that brings in too many unnatural elements that make it hard- instead of raw leg strength bulgarians are hard because of the balance. thats why you have to do them with barbells. Im sorry- but the strength needs of the Track Cyclist are major- you cant lift major poundage in a Split Squat Stance.. (i feel the same way about Over-Head Squats- why add an element to a squat that makes it so you cant squat anything like your maximum? just because something is hard doesnt mean it makes you faster)

    the Deadlifts with the Barbells... there is no point in doing a deadlift that isnt Heavy (for you).. so at the weight that a deadlift is effective for strength gains barbells become to big and hard to use..

    Carleton- you are a big strong guy- are you really standing behind deads with 5lb dumbbells?

  16. #141
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    I object to strength work that is not focused on making people strong.


    bench with barbells is fine- possibly an improvement on the barbell version- but its not a lift id put on the must do for cyclist, and it gets really hard to get into the starting position once the weight gets to where it should be for it to be worth your time..

    as far as Bulgarians- ive done them- prescribed by a coach who came up with your coach- i just happen to object to a technically difficult exercise that brings in too many unnatural elements that make it hard- instead of raw leg strength bulgarians are hard because of the balance. thats why you have to do them with barbells. Im sorry- but the strength needs of the Track Cyclist are major- you cant lift major poundage in a Split Squat Stance.. (i feel the same way about Over-Head Squats- why add an element to a squat that makes it so you cant squat anything like your maximum? just because something is hard doesnt mean it makes you faster)

    the Deadlifts with the Barbells... there is no point in doing a deadlift that isnt Heavy (for you).. so at the weight that a deadlift is effective for strength gains barbells become to big and hard to use..

    Carleton- you are a big strong guy- are you really standing behind deads with 5lb dumbbells?
    I think we should differentiate between Strength and Conditioning.
    Strength being: Getting as strong as genetically possible. And Conditioning being: Raising one's base level of general fitness.

    I trained with Jennie right after leaving Steve's program. I had lots of questions. She understood and answered every single one of them. Who am I to disregard that?

    Also, the guys in the videos use low weights in order to demonstrate their point. I've done LOTS of heavy dumbbell training in the past.

    To be honest, there is no perfect program...especially for new racers. Something is better than nothing. If a guy says that he's not interested in joining a gym and wants to know what he can do without setting up a squat rack at home...guess what...there are PLENTY of things he can do

    Also, just google "Prison Workouts" and see what is possible with few resources...and plenty of time.

    Notice that I started my post with:

    I think joining a no-frills gym (the kind a typical girl wouldn't set foot in) would be a good idea.
    Last edited by carleton; 02-17-14 at 11:20 PM.

  17. #142
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I think we should differentiate between Strength and Conditioning.
    Strength being: Getting as strong as genetically possible. And Conditioning being: Raising one's base level of general fitness.
    :
    ahhhh- this is a Weightlifting Thread on a track forum- it is literally a Sub-Culture inside a Sub-Culture, inside a Sub-Culture...
    Can't we agree that there are enough sources of lousy Jane Fonda style workouts on the web and that if someone finds them self here that they are probably looking for gym work that will actually translate to results on the bike.. And if not we can just direct them to sources that suit their needs?

    To be honest, there is no perfect program...especially for new racers. Something is better than nothing. If a guy says that he's not interested in joining a gym and wants to know what he can do without setting up a squat rack at home...guess what...there are PLENTY of things he can do
    As far as this goes....
    did you even read the original question before you sprayed us with videos of shirtless fitness models?

    He never said he would not get a squat rack- in fact the only thing he said he didn't want to get was a bench- that thing that is used in 2 of your 4 vids..

  18. #143
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    My wife and I live in a 1,200 square foot apartment. No room for a squat rack. I'll join a gym. The trick will be finding a no frills gym. I'm sure there is one somewhere nearby.

    I'm sure my legs will burn once I start his stuff. I'm not saying I'm immune. I'm saying my legs are not as pathetic as my upper body is.

    Thanks again, guys. I'm excited.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  19. #144
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    I know I'll get burned posting the following in this topic, but noglider why do you feel you need to do weights? Plenty of racers do fine without stepping into a gym...
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  20. #145
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
    I know I'll get burned posting the following in this topic, but noglider why do you feel you need to do weights? Plenty of racers do fine without stepping into a gym...
    Not at all-

    this is is a very valid point!

  21. #146
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
    I know I'll get burned posting the following in this topic, but noglider why do you feel you need to do weights? Plenty of racers do fine without stepping into a gym...
    True.
    I feel as though I got a lot of mileage out of plyometrics for a number of years. Eventually however, I got to a point where I wasn't winning the races I wanted to, and in order to win 'em, I needed strength gains beyond what plyos could offer.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  22. #147
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Oh I dunno. Tell me I don't have to. Or tell me I do have to. Or tell me how to decide. My abdomen is weak; sit-ups are hard. My shoulders are super weak. These things must mean something, no?
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  23. #148
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    I honestly hate weight lifting and my means for core work out are push ups, pull ups and ab work using ab straps mounted to my pull up bar which is just a inexpensive door frame setup. Those three equipments I use are the Perfect Fitness brand which you can find easily and I do what they call the push-pull-ab work out(iirc lol). For legs, I just do intervals on the trainer and rollers. Should I look into actual leg works in the gym?

  24. #149
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    My abdomen is weak; sit-ups are hard. My shoulders are super weak. These things must mean something, no?
    Yes, they mean you should lift weights regardless of any cycling benefit. And as a koolaid drinker, I think there are also cycling benefits for virtually every cyclist.

    Even though I have a ghetto setup in the garage and lift alone, I will agree with everyone who steered beginners away from this approach. I only did it because 1) I know I would never (ever, ever) drag myself to a gym, and 2) I had a pretty good mentor holding my hand through most of the rookie mistakes, questions, etc. And even then, 3) I forced myself to go ultra-conservative on weight progression (which is really difficult when you are on that intoxicating novice progression arc).

  25. #150
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    I hear you loud and clear on why doing it at home is not good for novices. And I'd rather not make a capital investment, nor would I like it to take up space.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

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