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Old 03-25-14, 10:54 AM   #201
bmontgomery87
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It can be a mix of a few things, with the bigger guys at 300+ pounds they already have extremely high blood pressure most likely. Then they get even more excited, snort ammonia, and exert themselves to the max while holding their breath.

Add in powerlifting gear, the pressure is insane, and your body has to release it somehow. I think the nosebleeds are almost a safety measure for the body, no?

I remember when I first got into powerlifting, I was pulling around 425, and decided to try a friends multiply Metal Deadlifter. I worked up to 395, and thought my head was going to blow off. It's a pretty intense feeling you have to get used to.
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Old 03-26-14, 10:58 AM   #202
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After reading the last couple of posts about nosebleeds, bleeds in the eye etc, I have to provide a public service announcement. Keep in mind that the purpose of a valsalva is to increase your inner tension, which also leads to higher blood pressure. That high blood pressure can do all sorts of bad things making a nose bleed a minor inconvenience. At 49 years old, I leg pressed myself into the hospital with a dissected left anterior descending artery in my heart. As I got older, I suspect my arteries lost some resilience. Very scary. On the off chance you get really dizzy after a lift, and it doesn't go away as quickly as normal, seek medical attention. I thought the weirdness was just the normal light headedness after a hard session, but it didn't clear and only got worse over the next 30 minutes. I got to the ER with about 2 minutes to spare before I went into full arrest. I still lift at 64, but I don't go quite as heavy as before, 'cause waking up with a respirator down your throat is no fun!

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Old 03-26-14, 11:05 AM   #203
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^^Good info.
That sounds really scary. I got a very nasty exertion headache one day that was almost blurring my vision. I freaked out for a little bit, then all was well.
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Old 03-28-14, 04:23 PM   #204
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First gym session done successfully after tweaked back.Posting a for check vid, if any of you expert eyes see issues please let me know, thanks.
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Old 03-28-14, 05:11 PM   #205
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First gym session done successfully after tweaked back.Posting a for check vid, if any of you expert eyes see issues please let me know, thanks.
I know nothing about Box-Squats, so i am completely unqualified to comment on your form..

looking at your squats from a LBBS perspective, they look really good. Its not a great angle to judge knee travel- but they look good to me. Way better than most form check vids i see!

a couple things:
you are going well past parallel, a good bit deeper than necessary for a LBBS.
As i said, i don't know these well- so maybe thats how they should be executed.

and- this is whats a little confusing to me.
other than the bit where you go past depth- and stop, and then re-start, this is basically a LBBS performed with less weight to allow you to execute the start/stop. i assume the Start/Stop and the Past Depth are to focus training on puling yourself out of the hole on a heavy single.
To me the rest of your movement range is just a normal squat done at lower weight. since you are not training for 1Rep Max Squats, why not just do regular LBBS at lower weight?
I suspect that the part of the Box-Squat that makes it harder and require less weight be used is not really advancing your bike training.
I feel the same about Overhead Squats. yeh- i know overhead squats with 135lbs are hard- but are they focused and effective?

i would think the Box is overcomplicating things- and frankly id worry that as the weight got higher you might be in bad position with regards to back strain coming off the box.. but like i said- I'm not educated on this method.
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Old 03-28-14, 05:30 PM   #206
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rhead squats with 135lbs are hard- but are they focused and effective?

i would think the Box is overcomplicating things- and frankly id worry that as the weight got higher you might be in bad position with regards to back strain coming off the box.. but like i said- I'm not educated on this method.
I get you here, Quinn, and thanks for the critique. I think actually the angle is a little deceptive, this is just a tad lower than my normal back squat. What I like about the stop on the box is it takes the bounce out of the bottom, and my suspicion is that's where I'm getting into trouble when things get heavy with my back squat. I don't see the butt-wink here where reviewing videos of me without the box, it's definitely there.

Right now I really like the idea of getting more stress out of less weight. And I also intend to just go less heavy in general, to re-adjust my perception of what's heavy. I think lifting is super useful for sprinting, but getting hurt isn't. I have to find the balance there. Clearly I've been going beyond what my 45 year-old frame can deal with.

Edit: Also, I think the box allows me to focus on my low back position at the bottom of the movement. This may be just my personal issue, but without the box it's easier for me to get foggy about just what my back is doing, where the box represents a concrete check point in terms of depth and also back angle.

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Old 03-28-14, 05:48 PM   #207
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I think actually the angle is a little deceptive, this is just a tad lower than my normal back squat.
the crease of your hip joint (basically the line where your shirt and pants meet in the vid) is way below the top of the knee. its possible you are going too deep in your regular squats? i think going too deep can stress the back.

also- you should consider lifting in a proper lifting shoe- with a heel lift
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Old 03-28-14, 06:19 PM   #208
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On second look you may be right about the depth. There's another box that's a couple inches higher, I'll try that next time.
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Old 03-28-14, 06:40 PM   #209
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At your level of strength development I would lean more towards paused squats for bottom stability/confidence than box squats as your priority is not 1RM development, but GPP. The solution to almost any issue at this level is to simply squat more.

Also, if depth is causing back fatigue it's very likely a mobility issue more than anything else. Hams/hip flexors, etc.. Or, you're allowing near maximal loads to pull you forward, placing greater stress on the low back. Or a combo.
I dealt with low-back fatigue and spasms early on in focusing on Powerlifting but found the issue disappeared when I started taking my ham/hip mobility seriously.
This was an ugly BW rep PR that actually pulled me forward quite a bit. This is the exact type of lift that would have given me a gnarly back spasm only a few months prior.

Most people performing LBBS at the higher levels of performance tend to go with good flats over Weightlifting shoes. I was generally an outlier for preferring to LBBS in my do-wins. If you have the cash, I'd say try it out though. I mostly just enjoy the increased stability/platform as dorsiflexion has never been an issue for me.

I thought the reps looked outstanding. Maybe accelerate off the box a bit harder. But solid reps.
I wouldn't stress about depth too terribly much. Yours looks just fine for a LBBS.
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Old 03-28-14, 06:53 PM   #210
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^Deep.
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Old 03-28-14, 08:20 PM   #211
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Great post DanAVL!
lots of good info in there..
i suspect this is the big takeaway:
Quote:
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At your level of strength development I would lean more towards paused squats for bottom stability/confidence than box squats as your priority is not 1RM development, but GPP. The solution to almost any issue at this level is to simply squat more.
as far as Lifting Shoes- i am seeing a lot of them at Meets. I expected to not see them so much because all the burly images on the net are monsters squatting with insane wide stances out of monoliths with Chucks on.. id say of the meets ive done its probably 85% or more are in olympic lifting shoes.

nice vid! love the dismount!
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Old 03-28-14, 08:51 PM   #212
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I've greatly enjoyed perusing the bank of cycling knowledge here. So, if I can return the favor in any way via my strength training experience, I'm happy to help.

You guys have a good group here.
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Old 03-29-14, 02:40 AM   #213
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What I like about the stop on the box is it takes the bounce out of the bottom, and my suspicion is that's where I'm getting into trouble when things get heavy with my back squat.
Bouncing at the bottom of the squat is tending popping stuff. The bounce amplifies the forces you are putting through your knees etc to levels they simply can't cope with. I'll revert with the actual numbers if i can get hold of them again.
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Old 03-29-14, 11:08 AM   #214
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Dan AVL, thanks for the words. But to both you and Quinn, why is it that box squats are only considered valuable as prep for 1RM? Isn't it also just good strength training? At this point its attractive for me cuz it's harder with less weight, and it also feels to me like it targets the outer quads more than the posterior chain (and low back). The box being there gives me a specific target as far as depth, and that is easy for a non-genius lifter like myself. What's not to like?
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Old 03-29-14, 11:36 AM   #215
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The box-squat is essentially a Partial. Coming to a complete stop at the bottom eliminates the stretch reflex, and makes getting out of the hole very hard. Power lifters work this into their training because a heavy single often goes very slow- this trains your ability to pull it out of the hole.

The rest of the box squat is just a squat rep don with lower weight.
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Old 03-29-14, 12:31 PM   #216
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Dan AVL, thanks for the words. But to both you and Quinn, why is it that box squats are only considered valuable as prep for 1RM? Isn't it also just good strength training? At this point its attractive for me cuz it's harder with less weight, and it also feels to me like it targets the outer quads more than the posterior chain (and low back). The box being there gives me a specific target as far as depth, and that is easy for a non-genius lifter like myself. What's not to like?
Harder =/= effective.
How something "feels" is not the best indicator of training efficacy. You're going to have days where 80% feels like a PR attempt. As long as bar speed and form are relatively(to standard) constant you've just got to deal with it and keep working.

Simply put, box squatting would be a more advanced training tool geared towards targeting a specific weakness in a squatter's form.

It's not a "bad" thing. Just wholly unnecessary, IMO, for your squat development at this point. I feel that your time would be better spent just squatting more. And developing the ability to judge depth by feel is an important skill for even the recreational squatter. While it's fine using a teaching tool for depth in the beginning, you don't want it to become a crutch. It's very difficult to develop a movement pattern when you're busy searching for whatever it is you're squatting down to constantly.

If you just enjoy doing it, then party on Garth.
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Old 03-31-14, 10:03 AM   #217
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I'm a little late on the box squat thing.
But I'd stop bouncing around before my reps, sit back further, and also change the box so that the corner is between your legs. That way you don't have to worry about missing the box, it becomes impossible.

Watch some Louie Simmons videos if you want to know how to box squat.

But if you aren't competing in gear, and want to be strong, just learn how to do a regular squat.

If you want to use less weight, and make that harder, do pause squats. You can concentrate on your positioning in the hole like you're wanting to do, and light weight gets really heavy when you sit in the bottom for a few seconds.


If you want to squat more weight, squat more, squat often, etc. "5x5 and eat more" was the advice given to me by people who are much stronger than I am. I got strong when I listened.
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Old 04-01-14, 02:58 AM   #218
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A question for the enduro's who lift (any input from sprinters welcome, too, of course)

i'm struggling to schedule my lifting day with my bike days. I have found including lifting in my training has made a big difference already, so I will keep it in the schedule, but need to prioritise the hard-effort bike days over the lifting days.

My current programme is:
Monday - rest day.
Tuesday - coached session (big gear - 2-4" over race gear). 2:30 - 3h, content varies depending on time of year, but a hard session
Wednesday - 1h speed endurance intervals (on the trainer)/ 2h mountain bike ride similar effort overall
Thursday - 2h30 coached session (88" gear), also a hard session. lots of flying 500s..
Friday - Was my lifting day, before we started motor-pacing on a saturday..
Saturday - motorpacing. (warm up behind the bike, and then 2 x simulated points races of ~15 min each.) - i wont cope with this after a day of lifting.
sunday - 2-3h road/ mtb session, lighter effort.

Any thoughts? at the moment i'm thinking Sunday, with a proper recovery spin later after the motorpacing, or maybe wednesday, but possibly not so ideal after big gear day..
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Old 04-01-14, 07:08 AM   #219
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A question for the enduro's who lift (any input from sprinters welcome, too, of course)

i'm struggling to schedule my lifting day with my bike days. I have found including lifting in my training has made a big difference already, so I will keep it in the schedule, but need to prioritise the hard-effort bike days over the lifting days.
Ha. I think if I ask Quinn about this one more time, he's going to snap. I'm really struggling with it.

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My current programme is:
Monday - rest day.
Tuesday - coached session (big gear - 2-4" over race gear). 2:30 - 3h, content varies depending on time of year, but a hard session
Wednesday - 1h speed endurance intervals (on the trainer)/ 2h mountain bike ride similar effort overall
Thursday - 2h30 coached session (88" gear), also a hard session. lots of flying 500s..
Friday - Was my lifting day, before we started motor-pacing on a saturday..
Saturday - motorpacing. (warm up behind the bike, and then 2 x simulated points races of ~15 min each.) - i wont cope with this after a day of lifting.
sunday - 2-3h road/ mtb session, lighter effort.

Any thoughts? at the moment i'm thinking Sunday, with a proper recovery spin later after the motorpacing, or maybe wednesday, but possibly not so ideal after big gear day..
My first reaction is to lift Mondays, take Friday off.

Here was a typical week for me for most of this year so far:
Mon: lift
Tue: 1.5hr road (half of it at race pace)
Wed: lift
Thu: 2hr track session (interval-ish)
Fri: lift
Sat: 3hr fast road ride
Sun: off

Recently added a 4th day on bike, so a) cut back lifting to 2x, but b) not sure where to put them. I've basically just moved my off day to Friday, been doing track intervals Sunday. This keeps lifting Mon-Wed, but ideally I could space them out better (lift Mon-Thu). I may eventually double up somewhere (Thursday).
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Old 04-01-14, 07:57 AM   #220
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Bmontgomery sort of covered it.. but ill get into it a bit more..

first off- drop the 5x5!
5x5 is a great way for a novice lifter, especially one not genetically pre-disposed to strength gains (yes- you Enduros!) to get some volume early in a strength progrm, without the weight progressing so fast as it does in a 3x5 program with linear progression (adding weight every workout, across all sets)

I currently do 1 day of 5x5 as part of The Texas Method (intermediate program) and i can tell you that a properly executed 5x5 at a heavy weight is a Mother Facker!

so- id switch to 3x5...

as for the adaption. There is a period early in weight training, especially when combined with cycling, where the fatigue seams too much. If you can ride through this phase, you will likely adapt and find 2 things: first- you will not feel nearly as worked after a while as you did.. you just get better at recovering from weights, and they affect the bike less.. second- you will find that even on the days that you feel really fatigued, you dont lose much performance.. i was assured by my coach this was the case- and sure enough he was right..
to me- that is one of the great mental aspects of weights that makes you- the lifter- So Fricking Awesome- the knowledge that you crush no matter how you feel.

one last piece of this puzzle is how critical roller work is for the lifting cyclist.. it helps adapt the lifting into bike strength.. and it helps with recovery. try it- youll like it
I started with a 5x5 after so many years of ignorant weight training, pretty much my whole life. 55 in a couple days. a little over 7 yrs ago I started with the 5x5 and quickly realized what my limits were in all my stations. right now I'm limited to 20 minute sessions at lunch and so the 5x5 has been taken down to a 5x3. more or less, for example I'll do 5 reps at the incline bench, but if it's busy I'll do 10 inclined pushups. for dips I go over the 5 just because I can, but just 7 ... pullups, they changed the equipment so now I'm doing various sets of 3 wide pullups, meaning I'll 2 sets of 3reps as part of my 3 set, meaning total 6 sets of 3reps. I also include lat pulldowns so I'm not too worried about the low # of pullups.

anyway I've pretty much reached a point where I can't add any weight. we have new machines so I'm finding new limits but back when I started I was able to increase weights but not anymore. any suggestions for what to do now? I'm not a late teen / early 20 yr old looking to look like a weight trainer, just like a smokin 55 yr old ...
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Old 04-01-14, 08:11 AM   #221
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Ha. I think if I ask Quinn about this one more time, he's going to snap. I'm really struggling with it.



My first reaction is to lift Mondays, take Friday off.

Here was a typical week for me for most of this year so far:
Mon: lift
Tue: 1.5hr road (half of it at race pace)
Wed: lift
Thu: 2hr track session (interval-ish)
Fri: lift
Sat: 3hr fast road ride
Sun: off

Recently added a 4th day on bike, so a) cut back lifting to 2x, but b) not sure where to put them. I've basically just moved my off day to Friday, been doing track intervals Sunday. This keeps lifting Mon-Wed, but ideally I could space them out better (lift Mon-Thu). I may eventually double up somewhere (Thursday).
I have been doing a similar bike / lift routine but I jump versus lift for my legs. For upper body, I lift and do some type of plyometric exercise as well. Now that I am getting really good at jumping, my coach has stopped the jumping and now I will increase time on the bike.
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Old 04-02-14, 06:25 AM   #222
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I am in NYC and went to the Equinox gym on the lower east side. It was lunchtime and there were several men doing Olympic style lifting. The gym is on the second floor. The dismounts shook the entire gym. I was seated on the lat pull down machine and a dismount launched me off the seat - nice gym great people.
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Old 04-02-14, 10:43 AM   #223
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Dan AVL, thanks for the words. But to both you and Quinn, why is it that box squats are only considered valuable as prep for 1RM? Isn't it also just good strength training?
hey Babypuke- was thinking about this this morning, and even though i really believe that the best leg training is a LBBS, i do understand your interest in maintaining a level of difficulty while being under less weight.

Maybe an Overhead Squat is something you could try out. Bar Loads would be quite a bit lower. Like the Box Squat, the thing that makes it hard is not actually really helping the core of the move, but at least in the overhead squat its the strains on the Back, core and shoulders, which would at least be relevant to cycling.

I actually don't know that much about the move- and BMontgomery and DanAVL may have some reasons why I'm wrong about this, but it could be worth a look...
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Old 04-02-14, 10:50 AM   #224
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hey Babypuke- was thinking about this this morning, and even though i really believe that the best leg training is a LBBS, i do understand your interest in maintaining a level of difficulty while being under less weight.

Maybe an Overhead Squat is something you could try out. Bar Loads would be quite a bit lower. Like the Box Squat, the thing that makes it hard is not actually really helping the core of the move, but at least in the overhead squat its the strains on the Back, core and shoulders, which would at least be relevant to cycling.

I actually don't know that much about the move- and BMontgomery and DanAVL may have some reasons why I'm wrong about this, but it could be worth a look...
Oh man, those look hella difficult. I'm bummed you've all been poo-pooing my box squat. Despite all that, I'm gonna persevere with them because they just felt good. Something different has to be tried. "Just squatting more" isn't doing it. I will keep the overhead squat in mind, maybe try some with an empty bar. I've watched some guys doing them in my gym, they are incredibly deep!

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Old 04-02-14, 11:13 AM   #225
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So I am a weightlifting noob to the extreme, but I think I am missing something here. To me a box squat = LBBS + safety net, but the lift is the exact same? I am thinking of adding in squats to my winter program after the season if my sprint numbers don't improve, and my review so far has said that box squats would be a great way to enforce how far down I squat. Kind of like a pushup, hit the floor and you know that you went far enough ... and you can't go further than the floor. So a Box squat gives you that spot that shows you went far enough and prevents you from going too deep, which is something I want to avoid. I never have my legs go past 90 deg on the bike, so why do it with a squat?

So I have watched a few videos online and been following these talks, but I must be missing something if LBBS is better or even different than a box squat. I barely see the difference between a high bar and low bar setup, and don't even understand why they advise a low bar for the box squat. Sorry to waste time with the easy questions and my lifting is still 6 months away ... but this post got me thinking about it.
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