gtrob

I have some friends who LOVE that thing. Unfortunately I've never owned a phone in my life and just use what my work gives me, which has been old and heavy blackberries

Might just try and take pictures and analyze it post

Brian Ratliff

It's only a paradox to those who don't understand linkages. Both muscles cross two joints (hip and knee). Depending on how the joints are braced and the joint angles, they can either actuate the knee or the hip. When rising from a seated to standing, the hamstring has more leverage on the hip than on the knee and vice verse the quads. It's kind of fascinating once you get into it.

The key to full depth squats is actuating the hamstring to act as a hip extensor, because at full depth, the quad doesn't have much leverage on the knee. People who sit all day don't naturally do this, and I think most roadies don't do this either. My point about specificity is if you have trained all your life to not use your hamstrings as a hip extensor when pedaling, then you are not going to get this muscle more involved on the downstroke by simply pedaling longer or with more force.

jmikami

Body Balance is a critical part of any good training program. I think both Brian and Carleton are right and both seem to be circling the idea that you need to ensure you body does not get out of whack in any one area. Back, Core, various components of the legs, arms, even the neck muscles come into play in making you a better cyclists or athlete of any kind. Making sure you take the time to develop each muscle group so that it does not throw your body out of whack is critical to any long term injury free training program. Taking the time to find your personal weakness areas and place some time just makes your training more efficient, and one year to the next this might change.

This is where variety rules and those who are doing lots of different things will beat out those who get too specific, but again everything in proper proportion. No need for a 500 pound bench press for a cyclist, but you still need core strength and the ability to hold/pull on the bars and change a cog.

Brian Ratliff

Not if you are on Bike Central...

(sorry, inside joke)

Hermes

+1 Wow, I wanted to agree with jmi on a post and this thread has exploded and I am a couple of pages behind.

I like the simplicity of this model. And I spend most of my time on the ATP-CP and Lactate systems but I do aerobic workouts as well . I use strength training for core and upper body with very limited leg work.

jmikami

I found that very funny.

I have also found that by changing my position on the bike and doing lots of out of the saddle work on the road I can work a large number of muscle groups that are never touched while sitting in the same spot on the track or the rollers - climbs and roadwork are very important if you are not doing gym work, IMO. I also train on a bike with tennis shoes and 150+ pounds of deadweight, aka kids, behind me - variety. I have been too lazy to hit the gym yet, but have been reading this thread with interest and researching lots of gym based training to possibly work into my winter training for 2015. It would be so much more fun mentally to hit the gym on a 35 and rainy day or 20 degree snowstorm than trying to figure out how to bike in that weather or on the rollers - both of those suck for me.

DanAVL

Fun conversation

gtrob

Coming from the road Im not actually hating the gym too much. I can get a pretty good workout (it hurts all over) in 45mins including warm/cool, and as a road rider anything less than 3hrs is considered a "quick" workout. So its convenient if you are someone with a pretty solid routine as it is.

VanceMac

Just one anecdote/data point of an enduro trying to keep up weights during the season. Simplified dashboard from my training log. All the weights sessions include squats and bench/ovhd (A/B); deads less than every other session. The low saddle time still makes me squirm. But we'll see how it goes.

Velocirapture

I'm impressed with the number of weights sessions. (not so much with the saddle time ) let us know how it works for you, in season.

jmikami

Thanks! I love seeing what others are doing.

gtrob

Vance as long as the intensity is high I think 5-8hrs on the bike is pretty reasonable. I went from 15-18hrs/week in winter base miles and am down to <8hrs a week now. However my pace is much higher, the time on the bike is either racing or a 60-90min hammerfest/intervals. Im doing about 1/2 of the mileage I did at this point last year looking at my training logs, but none of my rides have felt easy!

The only way to hit 10+hrs on the bike is to have lots of long ass rides at a very low intensity (relative to the track/racing). Train for what you are going to compete in, even us enduros don't race on the track for more than a few mins at a time. Im looking to avoid stage/road racing this year for this same reason, I'd rather keep it short and intense.

VanceMac

Couldn't agree more. Intensity is not only (vastly) more efficient, but I'm starting to believe it is superior overall and in almost every way.

carleton

Isn't there a school of thought in the road racing world that for "Base Miles", shorter 1-2hr rides with slightly more intensity are just as effective as long 3-4 hour rides with low intensity?

Baby Puke

I saw the most cringe-inducing, frighteningly horrible dead lift form of my life yesterday in my gym. Two young tech-bros (new SF demographic term), both with bad form but the one guys was just off the charts, and both were totally oblivious. The one is heading for certain injury if the weight keeps progressing and he doesn't get help. They were strong, and (very badly) lifting more than I can, but despite that I felt a moral twinge to intervene. Not wanting to be 'that guy', I held it in and let them stumble on their way. What do y'all do in these situations?

carleton

- Get out your phone.
- Dial "9-1-1" (don't press "Call", yet)
- Watch the guy tear something awful.
- Press "Call".

I've seen it at my gym, too. And yeah, it's usually two guys leading each other astray.

Just last night, I watched two guys do high-bar back squats using the Smith Rack (which isn't unforgivable) with like 95lbs on it. But, the guy took "Ass to Grass" very seriously. His butt was literally about 1" off of the ground on each rep.

(Smith Rack:)

Baby Puke

At least your dude was keeping it light. These guys were over 400 lbs and that's enough to really hurt you. It looked like a ****ing train wreck was about to go down with this dude's spine. Every single vertebra was collapsed as he progressed through the lift to lock out. His spine was doing 'the worm' under the bar. Scary, very scary.

wens

Essentially breaks down to whether you believe you should base your training off scientific studies or off the model of what the most successful cyclists have done.

Clearly it's not that simple, but that's the gist of the divide.

queerpunk

Two things:

1. I see it parroted a lot that deadlifts are pretty stressful on the central nervous system. But I don't see much explication of that. Why? How do we know? And what are the symptoms of stressing your CNS?

2. I'm reading Starting Strength. Holy crap Rippetoe is sexist. I was impressed that plenty of information is also geared toward women, and there are women in the pictures - ie the book isn't just directed at men - and then he starts saying things like "If you insist on using gloves, make sure they match your purse" and then, less subtly, "if you do XXXXX, you are a *****."

Quinn8it

When deads get heavy- say double body weight for a 5-set they start to get really taxing, and in my experience progress can often do a loop where you peak with a heavy weight and then begin to lose strength and weight goes backwards.
I can't necessarily define the symptoms of a fatigued CNS, but I can tell you that heavy dead lift sets start to affect my lower back- not necessarily affecting the pull, or feeling like an injury, but tight and sore after..

Maybe one of the more educated lifters here can comment of the CNS stuff

DanAVL

I've never seen strong evidence to support it. If it exists, I'd like to see it.

Anecdotal here, I'll happily admit that grinding a PR deadlift is probably one of the most physically taxing experiences I've had.
I feel like a lot of people confuse being physically exhausted with "CNS fatigue". While they're obviously linked I have a hard time believing the relationship is linear and directly proportionate. But I'm no expert, of course. And the vast majority of people (that I've seen), aren't using nearly enough volume to illicit legitimate adrenal/CNS fatigue, imo. The human body is incredibly adaptive and we have lots of anecdotal evidence of guys training with what seems like ludicrous levels of volume relative to intensity. They didn't fall out of their mom like that, it is a trainable quality, and they've trained it.
A lot of people hit that first volume barrier and simply cannot cope with the physical fatigue and write it off as overtraining/CNS/the vernal equinox/whatever.

Rambling a bit. No answer of use there, sorry.

Quinn8it

Thanks Dan! Good stuff!

that bit I quoted is rampant in Cycling!!!



I've also heard it called "BPS" (inside joke nobody will get)

VanceMac

Baby Puke

I hope that doesn't stand for Baby Puke Syndrome...

Hermes

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