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  1. #51
    Senior Member zizou's Avatar
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    Interesting couple of articles about an Australian coach Charlie Walsh who was in charge of their cycling programme in the 80s and 90s

    It is perhaps a little one sided focusing on those with axes to grind but it is still a good insight into the personal side of a particular type of coaching.

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/03/re...charlie-walsh/

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/03/th...f-gold-medals/

  2. #52
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    ^woah, those are intense.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  3. #53
    VeloSIRraptor
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    one-sided or not, the coach was given multiple opportunities to respond and didn't.
    When there are as many ex-athletes coming out of the woodwork as there currently are on that topic.... well, that's also worth something
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  4. #54
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    The TrackSprinting page on Facebook has been on fire this week. Old school coaches, new school coaches, Elite Sprinters all chiming in. Of course, being the internet, you have to sift through all the trolls and snark. Still, the S/N is higher than most of Facebook. www.facebook.com/groups/171635342849338/

  5. #55
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    The TrackSprinting page on Facebook has been on fire this week. Old school coaches, new school coaches, Elite Sprinters all chiming in. Of course, being the internet, you have to sift through all the trolls and snark. Still, the S/N is higher than most of Facebook. www.facebook.com/groups/171635342849338/
    I haven't been a member of Facebook since 2009

    (The people are fine, it's Facebook, Inc. that I don't like. Awful business practices.)


    What are they talking about?
    Last edited by carleton; 03-07-14 at 11:06 AM.

  6. #56
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I haven't been a member of Facebook since 2009

    What are they talking about?
    Most of the usual: weightlifting (yay, nay, how much), gearing/cadence, yadda yadda. Jon Fraley chiming in a lot. Lee Povey finally posted a common sense level-setter:

    Ok, Quinn's tongue in cheek post and some of the confusion and misdirection I read on this and many other forums has got me in the mood to post today.

    So for free here are my thoughts, take them as you wish

    1. Just because someone faster than you is doing something doesn't mean its the right thing for you (or even them!). Some riders are just plain more talented than others and can still be quicker than you even training badly. At the Olympics, World champs, World Cups etc I have been at I have seen riders with frankly ridiculous warm up protocols, poor technique in starts, horrible bike set ups etc and everyone of them is faster than me....but they could be so much quicker if they were doing it better. This goes for coaches too, it's irrelevant how quick your coach is as a rider if they can't understand how to relate that training to you and your needs. Often the riders that aren't as naturally gifted make better coaches because they have had to analyze themselves more carefully to compete with their more naturally gifted counterparts.

    2. Gearing is the biggest misnomer right now, firstly cadence is where you should be focussing, the gear choice being a bye product of that. Emulate the elite guys cadences not gearing. For a variety or reasons gearing in training is different from gearing in races, and is usually a fair bit smaller (excepting over geared training efforts), think about this when designing your training program, again go back to cadences, you will find 94" on a cold windy outdoor track is a very different gear to 94" on double discs, tires at 220 psi on a wooden indoor track, train at the cadence you want to race at not the gear you want to use.

    3. The current trend for super big gears is a little misleading for most non elite riders (by elite I am talking 10.5 and under) for the less well trained and efficient athletes whacking the gear up can have a short term speed gain, doesnt mean its helping your long term development and then we come to racing itself......

    4.I know its fun to brag sometimes about things like peak power/max squats/chainring sizes etc, however it often becomes a focus and leads you away from the real aim which should be to win races! Too many here are focussing too narrowly on small areas and not seeing the whole picture. The 200m is just the entry ticket to the races, if your training is constantly about the "right" gear/cadence to do a good 200m there is a good chance you won't be able to race as well as you could. Elite riders I know can do the same 200m time on gearing between 102 and 120 but you wont catch them racing on 120! most will race on between 4-8" less than they qualify and are pedalling at way higher rpms in a race then almost everyone who posts here. Also the gear you choose to race in needs to be able to cope with a variety of tactics and scenarios, having an "overspeed" buffer where you can still be effective over a wide range of cadences is a big advantage, especially when rushing the slipstream on an opponent. Bear in mind the steeper the banking and the tighter the radius of the turn the more your rpms will go up in the bends, can make quite a few rpms difference between the outdoor track/road you train on and the indoor one for your major comp.

    5. There is no magic formula, no silver bullet, no perfect answer. Real progress is made by a combination of lots of factors, with the gear you use for your flying 200m just being one small part. Do you get enough quality rest? Is your diet conducive to excellent recovery? Are you working on all the aspects of your sprint? Starts, accelerations, top end speed, speed endurance, form, aerodynamics, recovery between efforts, tapering, roadblocks, rest breaks, mental prep, practicing tactics-observation, injury prevention, supplementation? Some of these things are quite personal too, what works for Bob might not always work for John and vice versa. Although there are a lot of things that will work for the majority of people if applied at the right level for them and not just copied ad hoc from the elites.

    6. Gym work. In my experience with the athletes I have worked with and the ones I see racing and hear about, gym work is a vital part of MOST sprinters training. Its the most effective way to build muscle mass (if you need more which isn't always the case..) and can also be very effective at teaching better fiber/neural requirement. What you do in the gym though can make a big difference, the training these days is quite different to the more body building programs of the 80-90's and early 00's. Todays sprinters are leaner yet stronger. Numbers are totally personal, just because you can back squat 250 and the other guy can do 400 doesn't mean he will be quicker (Theo Bos couldn't back squat more than 150kg apparently, he seemed to do alright...), what is relevant is progression, USUALLY an increase in gym strength for a rider will correlate with faster times on track although there can be occasional exceptions to this. Also gym is quite rev specific with most of the gym gains relating to roughly 0-75rpms on a bike, anything much over 100rpms is very difficult to train with gym work. Other factors are age of the athlete and also how their body handles weight training, some athletes can cope with it really well and others get broken by it. Again the guys that make it at elite level are usually the ones that can cope with big workloads and big poundages. They are just more gifted than us at training. Also what works for them now might be having some long term negative payoffs for later life, there comes a point where training at elite level goes past what is truly healthy for some people, worth considering when racing a bike is your hobby not your job...find what works for you, if your lower back can't take squatting/deadlifting at a weight that's useful try leg press or single leg squats instead. Don't risk your long term health. Again find out what works for you and be prepared to change it when it stops being effective or causes you problems. Finally yes you can become elite/fast without weights, they are just a useful tool if you can handle them. ALWAYS put form 1st, remember you are using weights/resistance training to go faster on a bike, not to be the strongest gym in the gym, little and steady improvements here are the way forward.

    7. Equipment, the difference between high quality tires and clinchers/training tires is as much if not more of a time benefit than between spokes and aero wheels/discs. Frontal area matters, aerodynamics is a very complicated arena, a simple rule of thumb for most of us though is if you make your frontal area smaller you will go faster for the same given power output, this goes for weight too with 3-4kg's being roughly a 10th of a second over a flying 200m, and more like 2-3th's over a standing lap. Think about that when buying expensive wheels, laying off the cake could have a bigger gain 1st...

    I think thats enough from me for today

  7. #57
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Amazing post

    I totally agree with all of that, especially with regards to taking note of cadences instead of gears, power meter, or gym numbers. Cadence is the most telling metric that you can ever gather as a track racer. Not even speed or power tell as much of the story as cadence does.

  8. #58
    Senior Member
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    It's good stuff. Between the content here and on Facebook it seems the spirit of FGF is not dead yet. I miss the velodrome database, though.

  9. #59
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I attended Lee Povy's and Dave Le Gry's standing start and pursuit clinic at VSC and Hellyer. I liked the standing start clinic the best and I have used Lee to tune up my start last year.

    And he will be at LAVRA Sunday and we can watch the man on the boards.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  10. #60
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    What I find interesting about Povy's post and his comments on leg speed is his lack of use of the motor at the track. Both Roger Young and Travis Smith at VSC use the motor and Travis uses it a lot. However, both Travis and Roger are licensed or allowed to motor pace at the track and I do not think that Lee is. He would have to hire a motor pacer and share fees or pass on the cost to clients.

    I motor pace a lot and I do not listen to the negative comments by some coaches that pursuiters must push the wind or sprinters blah blah blah. I think the motor drills that Travis and Roger use build leg speed, power and endurance and it is a lot more fun than pushing the wind. However, pushing the wind is also and integral part of training and I do that as well.

    When I work out at Hellyer, I hire my own motor and do some of the motor drills that Travis and Roger use at VSC because I agree with Lee that leg speed is important and the right use of the motor has helped me a lot.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  11. #61
    Senior Member
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    I've seen Lee motorpacing numerous times at Hellyer behind Peter Bohl. Seems like it's a big part of his program.

  12. #62
    Junior Member Cantrackie's Avatar
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    Motorpacing is the only way to feel how the bike is at speed, while your not in the wind you still get the feel of what fast is and how your bike reacts to inputs from you, I can also guarantee you that you would not be able to repeat passing drills with a human in front as many times as you can with a motor.
    That being said, the motor is only a tool and not the only tool needed to ride at speed.

  13. #63
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    I've seen Lee motorpacing numerous times at Hellyer behind Peter Bohl. Seems like it's a big part of his program.
    I have been with Lee when he has motor paced and he and I have motor paced together behind Peter. However, it does not appear to be an integral part of his training sessions or program where his clients attend during the day, that I have also attended. Contrasting him to Travis and Roger, motor pacing is an integral part of their sessions and in fact, every session starts with a motor warmup. Roger's Tuesday and Thursday 7PM structured sessions that are open to the public feature a motor game after the two 24 minute interval sessions. Roger goes on to instruct racers to use smaller gears and the goal of the motor game is to work on leg speed and hide in the slip stream at the speed increases.

    Dan Smith, another coach at Hellyer, runs a thursday morning endurance session that will start in March. Motor pacing is an integral part of that session and he uses Peter Bohl.

    I like Lee a lot and think he is a great coach and I use his services from time to time.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #64
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    internet bodybuilding forum on Robert Forstemann:

    http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.p...662#msg6228662
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  15. #65
    Senior Member
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    I've heard when Robert Forstemann does squats, the bars stay still and he pushes the world down.

  16. #66
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Been a bit hectic, so a delay in doing this conversion, but it was definitely worth doing (good idea, Carleton).

    Average speed per event, for different age groups (based on World Masters times, appropriate split time for age groups with longer distances)

    Speed age and gender comparison.jpg
    Last edited by Velocirapture; 03-12-14 at 06:15 AM. Reason: include more info
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

  17. #67
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    terrible 1:35 for incident.

  18. #68
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Pretty ****ing awful.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  19. #69
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    so...it was the riders fault (mainly), agreed? I can see that they should have removed the gate the moment they saw that the riders weren't looking but in the end, ​they weren't looking.

  20. #70
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8bits View Post
    so...it was the riders fault (mainly), agreed? I can see that they should have removed the gate the moment they saw that the riders weren't looking but in the end, ​they weren't looking.
    I would fault the gate handlers. They should remove the gate immediately after use, no matter what.

    The second rider cannot see past the first rider. She didn't have a chance.

  21. #71
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    i was always taught to look ahead. i especially do it at crits...

    fried chicken and waffles.

  22. #72
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
    i was always taught to look ahead. i especially do it at crits...
    In Team Sprint or Team Pursuit, you do it in a controlled environment. There is more focus on holding the wheel and managing the gap than looking forward.

    Watch the clip you just embeded. The 2nd riders was heads down managing the gap on the backstraight.

    This is not the rider's fault.

  23. #73
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    not blaming the rider.
    fried chicken and waffles.

  24. #74
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    I was not talking about the 2nd rider but the first who swerved on the last moment, she should have slowed down/stopped much earlier since it was a missed start.
    not taking the blame from the gate handlers, they should have removed the gate since they saw they were approaching at high speed, it seems it was just a major cluster**** by them all

  25. #75
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
    not blaming the rider.
    Sorry.

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