Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-16-14, 01:05 PM   #26
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 6,021
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
zizou, my first guess would be weight distribution, before aero spokes and wind depth creating turbulence. are you further forward on your track bike? steeper seat tube angle?

also, some people attribute rear-wheel-skip in a sprint to an uneven pedal stroke. you push down but when your crank is at 6, if you don't pull up in time - if you're just the slightest bit out of sequence - then you wind up pushing down, effectively lifting your body somewhat (as if you were starting to stand up - micro movement) and then when you do lift back up, you lift your rear wheel a tiny bit.
queerpunk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-14, 02:03 PM   #27
sbs z31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Bikes:
Posts: 358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
One thing that really helped my spin recently was to concentrate on producing power from my hips (using hamstrings and gluts) rather than from the knee (using quads). That's not to say you don't use your quads, it's just that when you concentrate on using your hips and letting your knee follow, I think it both produces more power and a smoother spin. It also seems to get rid of the "dead band" at ~120rpm when a lot of people (including me, at times) get bumpy. My theory is at lower rpm, it is irrelevant whether you are taking your neuromuscular cues from your knees (quads) or hips (hamstrings), but that only works up until your brain has trouble tracking your knee extension due to the pedaling frequency. Probably completely bunk, but I think the central premise of concentrating on hips rather than knee holds water.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

ps. I'm just mess'n with you so I get you all confused and get the edge next time we are matched up together.

pps. Just kidding. Probably.
Interesting, might have to give this a try tonight and like most I bounce around a lot around 120-130rpm but anything below or beyond that is much more controllable.
sbs z31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-14, 06:46 PM   #28
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Kanazawa
Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF3, Intense Pro24 BMX
Posts: 1,004
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
The OP's spin already looked pretty good to me...
Baby Puke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-14, 05:05 AM   #29
Velocirapture
Senior Member
 
Velocirapture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Africa
Bikes: S-1 :-D
Posts: 403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
One thing that really helped my spin recently was to concentrate on producing power from my hips (using hamstrings and gluts) rather than from the knee (using quads). That's not to say you don't use your quads, it's just that when you concentrate on using your hips and letting your knee follow, I think it both produces more power and a smoother spin. It also seems to get rid of the "dead band" at ~120rpm when a lot of people (including me, at times) get bumpy. My theory is at lower rpm, it is irrelevant whether you are taking your neuromuscular cues from your knees (quads) or hips (hamstrings), but that only works up until your brain has trouble tracking your knee extension due to the pedaling frequency. Probably completely bunk, but I think the central premise of concentrating on hips rather than knee holds water.
I'm also intereste in giving this a try... but just to check i've got it right; are you focussing on the scrape along the bottom (glutes?) and pull up with the hammies, vs the kick over the top and stomp down (quads and glutes)?

ta
Velocirapture is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-14, 08:18 AM   #30
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
I'm also intereste in giving this a try... but just to check i've got it right; are you focussing on the scrape along the bottom (glutes?) and pull up with the hammies, vs the kick over the top and stomp down (quads and glutes)?

ta
With the pedal at the top of the circle, keep your back straight and stiff and drive the pedal down using your hip extensors. So instead of treating your hamstrings in a secondary role by using them to pull on the pedal, you use the muscle as a primary driver as the pedal is going down.

Basically, your hamstrings can be used in two ways since they cross two joints: as a muscle to close the knee (knee flexor) or as a muscle to extend the hip (hip extensor). When you pull up on the pedal, you are using your hamstring to close your knee joint. If you keep your back straight and stiff, you can use your stiff back to serve as a platform for the hamstring and glutes to extend the hip. When you do this, your quads are still doing their thing because the knee is also extending, but you are adding the hamstring and glutes to drive the downstroke. This means the hamstrings are unavailable to pull up on the pedal as the leg is recovering, but I think this is okay, as you don't really get a good drive (and things tend towards injury since the leg isn't really designed to apply force in retraction) if you pull too much on the pedals, and pulling tends to pull the rear wheel off the ground anyway.

What put me onto this was the observation that when deadlifting and squatting, much of the power comes from the hamstrings and the quads seem almost secondary. These motions are not all that different than the pedaling motion, the primary difference is most cyclists ride with soft backs which take the hip extensors right out of it. I tried some things and found a lot more power.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 01-17-14 at 08:36 AM.
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-14, 09:12 AM   #31
Velocirapture
Senior Member
 
Velocirapture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Africa
Bikes: S-1 :-D
Posts: 403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
^ Excellent, thanks! this is very clear. Appreciated, and looking foreward to giving it a go.
Velocirapture is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-14, 11:22 AM   #32
Hermes 
Elite Rider
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: La Jolla, CA
Bikes: Too Many
Posts: 9,812
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
The OP's spin already looked pretty good to me...
Yeah +1

Motor pacing at the track in a smaller gear has helped my "spin". I have done it at Hellyer (outdoors) and Velo Sports Center (indoors 250). Being able to spin fast for seconds is good but being able to spin smooth and relaxed for a longer period of time behind a motor running at constant speed or accelerating is, IMO, better.

Also, I train using race gears, under geared and over geared. Being able to spin fast is nice and may improve neuromuscular capability but, IMO, power and endurance trump high spin rates unless one is in too low of a gear and spins out.
__________________
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit. Aristotle

Cat: Killer
Hermes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-14, 05:27 PM   #33
zizou
Senior Member
 
zizou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 96
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
zizou, my first guess would be weight distribution, before aero spokes and wind depth creating turbulence. are you further forward on your track bike? steeper seat tube angle?

also, some people attribute rear-wheel-skip in a sprint to an uneven pedal stroke. you push down but when your crank is at 6, if you don't pull up in time - if you're just the slightest bit out of sequence - then you wind up pushing down, effectively lifting your body somewhat (as if you were starting to stand up - micro movement) and then when you do lift back up, you lift your rear wheel a tiny bit.
Yeah i guess i am a little further forward probably expains it!

Interesting about the micro movement hadnt thought of it like that before.
zizou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-14, 07:48 AM   #34
Velocirapture
Senior Member
 
Velocirapture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: South Africa
Bikes: S-1 :-D
Posts: 403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
With the pedal at the top of the circle, keep your back straight and stiff and drive the pedal down using your hip extensors. So instead of treating your hamstrings in a secondary role by using them to pull on the pedal, you use the muscle as a primary driver as the pedal is going down.
...
What put me onto this was the observation that when deadlifting and squatting, much of the power comes from the hamstrings and the quads seem almost secondary. These motions are not all that different than the pedaling motion, the primary difference is most cyclists ride with soft backs which take the hip extensors right out of it. I tried some things and found a lot more power.
Brian, just wanted to say thanks again for your initial comments on this, as well as your great description. I've been applying this method (work in progress, but getting there), and from the start it already felt like a more powerful stroke. Ive also hit a few PB's lately
Velocirapture is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-14, 12:10 PM   #35
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Awesome. Glad to hear it!
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:52 AM.