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-   -   Training Status (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/931307-training-status.html)

mcafiero 02-19-14 09:22 PM

Should we change the title of this thread? ;)

carleton 02-19-14 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16510916)
Dude, contact BT and see what the deal is. That is my #1 dream bike. I can live vicariously through you.

BT doesn't make anything longer than 57cm...I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16510949)
If i had normal dimensions- instead of being built like Pan,

Id just ride an EAI Bare Knuckle..

all you need is a stiff- strong bike that isn't a total anchor and it HAS TO FIT!

save your money for other stuff..

I totally agree. If I got a Felt, I wouldn't pay MSRP. No way.

carleton 02-19-14 11:31 PM

Back to training:

PB in the gym today. Woohoo! I deserve a cookie (seriously).

A lil' 10lb improvement over the last PB before a reset, but I felt good. Not 100% straining my guts out like last time. So I figure I'll progress a little more before the next reset.

Progress is good :D

Impreza_aL 02-19-14 11:32 PM

working on my sprint.

http://distilleryimage4.ak.instagram...92d289a8_8.jpg

carleton 02-20-14 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Impreza_aL (Post 16511224)

"sprint"

http://ofmusingsandwonderings.files....that-word1.jpg

By the way, nice max power. I was referring to your "sprint" workout being 72 miles with 4,500ft of climbing! Geez. I'd need a taxi half way into the ride.

I once tried to sprint during a long ride. I wanted to beat a car to the next stop light. I won...then I lost. I pretty much depleted all of my glycogen in that one sprint and I had to limp home for the next hour. Worst feeling ever.

So, I applaud that you can do this at any time during a long ride like that.

carleton 02-20-14 12:25 PM

I think the Felt is off of the table.

So, now it's down to the Hoy or Custom.

I met with a guy last night in his shop. He knows his stuff and came via a recommendation from a friend who races track. The builder is putting together a proper quote for an aluminum frame for me, but his ballpark price is fair.

Hida Yanra 02-20-14 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16512403)
proper <snip> aluminum <snip> fair.

I like this.


In my version of this episode: I almost pulled the trigger on a Dolan DF3 yesterday, but it was about 1cm too short, pity, the price was good.

Baby Puke 02-21-14 05:58 PM

Alright, Quinn- I reached my 225x8x5 back squat today, and while it wasn't easy it did not really feel heavy nor did I experience any issues. So very very carefully I'm gonna start on a plan of progressive increases, but sticking to the 5x5 formula.

By the way, I agree with all you said about the leg press. I'm gonna hang onto it for now, but when I start to trim my gym program it will be the first lift dropped.

Also FINALLY got un-stuck at 115x5x3 in the press. This is not a lot of weight, but I'm a bit of a wee little lady-man of a sprinter, so I have to take what I can get. I've done as much as 125 lbs before, but for the last year and a half or so I have not been able to clear 115 for sets across. For my pride I have to add these are strict presses with hips locked.

Also noticed and corrected a form issue with my dead lift. Never injured myself with the dead lift, but I always have had a bit of an issue with the low back going a bit round on the last couple of reps. Wasn't sticking my but back and high enough in the start position. I recommend everyone who's lifting to video themselves once in a while just to get a form check.

Wrapped it up with four standing starts on my block and three rev-outs on the rollers. Satisfying day of training.

Quinn8it 02-21-14 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16516246)
Alright, Quinn- I reached my 225x8x5 back squat today, and while it wasn't easy it did not really feel heavy nor did I experience any issues. So very very carefully I'm gonna start on a plan of progressive increases, but sticking to the 5x5 formula.

By the way, I agree with all you said about the leg press. I'm gonna hang onto it for now, but when I start to trim my gym program it will be the first lift dropped.

Thats awesome!
5x5 is good- i do it on the lifts that im bad on- so thats Bench and Press... its also great for new lifters who just need the miles. you might find it to be too much volume as your weight moves up. you can go back to 3x5 at that point, or- ive really been liking Texas Method, you do 5x5 monday- then an easy 2x5 active recovery on wed, then a hard 1x5 on friday.. there is even what ive heard dubbed as "old man Texas" where you do 3x5 on mon instead of 5x5..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16516246)
Also FINALLY got un-stuck at 115x5x3 in the press. This is not a lot of weight, but I'm a bit of a wee little lady-man of a sprinter, so I have to take what I can get. I've done as much as 125 lbs before, but for the last year and a half or so I have not been able to clear 115 for sets across. For my pride I have to add these are strict presses with hips locked.

thats about what i press...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16516246)
Also noticed and corrected a form issue with my dead lift. Never injured myself with the dead lift, but I always have had a bit of an issue with the low back going a bit round on the last couple of reps. Wasn't sticking my but back and high enough in the start position. I recommend everyone who's lifting to video themselves once in a while just to get a form check.

I think that everyone who does Dead's, who has not had solid coaching, should assume that they are starting with their butt too low.. its very common! i had a thing happen that sort of put some stress on my back- where my grip sort of migrated towards the middle.. not sure how or when it happened, but widening my grip helped.. i also have short stumpy legs and really long arms..

do you wear a belt when you dead? i do and it is tricky to get it right- especially for the break from the floor.. i find i have to wear the belt very tight.. there is also a Deadlift Belt http://www.roguefitness.com/2-ply-de...FZRsfgodHG0ACw
I got one for my wife- she squats and deads in it.. a lot of people struggle with getting the wider belt between the ribs and hips when they get into start position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16516246)
Wrapped it up with four standing starts on my block and three rev-outs on the rollers. Satisfying day of training.

the secret to Masters Bike Racing is learning to love the great training days as much as the great race days..

Baby Puke 02-21-14 11:03 PM

Quinn wrote:
"Thats awesome!
5x5 is good- i do it on the lifts that im bad on- so thats Bench and Press... its also great for new lifters who just need the miles. you might find it to be too much volume as your weight moves up. you can go back to 3x5 at that point, or- ive really been liking Texas Method, you do 5x5 monday- then an easy 2x5 active recovery on wed, then a hard 1x5 on friday.. there is even what ive heard dubbed as "old man Texas" where you do 3x5 on mon instead of 5x5.. "

-I'm gonna stay 5x5 on the back squat just cuz I wanna keep the weight doable. I'm already not straight-SS method, I do a different day mid week, I'm calling it the "Carleton day" as I'm doing single leg press that day instead of squatting. Here's what I do presently:

MON
BS 5X5
Press 5X3
Deadlift 5x1, 3x1, back-off set of 225x5x1 for form

WEDS
SLP 5x5
Pull-ups 7x5
Romanian Deadlifts 5x3

FRI
Same as MON

But soon I'm gonna add cleans, move RDL to Friday and dead lift only once a week:

MON-same

WEDS
cleans 3x5
pull-ups 8x5 (this may get dropped for D.E. presses)
SLP 5x5

FRI
Back squat 5x5
Press 5x5
RDL 5x3

When I start racing, I'll go to two days and ditch SLP, pull-ups and RDL's.I'll basically have heavy day and an explosive day by that point.


"thats about what i press... "

-Really?? That makes me feel better...

"do you wear a belt when you dead? i do and it is tricky to get it right- especially for the break from the floor.. i find i have to wear the belt very tight.. there is also a Deadlift Belt http://www.roguefitness.com/2-ply-de...FZRsfgodHG0ACw
I got one for my wife- she squats and deads in it.. a lot of people struggle with getting the wider belt between the ribs and hips when they get into start position."

-I do wear a belt, and it's already a narrower power-liftiing type belt, so it's ok. But yeah, the dead lift start position for some reason is "narrower" through the trunk somehow and it's tough to get the belt tight. I haven't been worrying about it but since you mention it I'll try one notch tight next week.

"the secret to Masters Bike Racing is learning to love the great training days as much as the great race days.."

-On my ride back from the gym today I was reflecting on how sometimes racing gets in the way of my training. I think I've got the mindset!

Quinn8it 02-21-14 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16516846)
-On my ride back from the gym today I was reflecting on how sometimes racing gets in the way of my training. I think I've got the mindset!

I can relate!

Ive got a really cool thing happening right now- where i haven't been on the track since we rode in mid-Nov, ive just been doing weights/Ergo/Rollers and my Saturday fast road ride.. but it looks like my power numbers are doing really well.. i'm weirdly gifted at doing training that most would find mind-numbing! Anyway the result is i got to take a break from the track- and now i'm really wanting to get back to it- but i've maintained or improved my fitness... looking forward to seeing how things look next week when i go out to Encino for a test workout!

So- Out of curiosity:
what made you move away from Starting Strength?

Baby Puke 02-21-14 11:48 PM

Well, it's been a couple of years since I've had a few re-sets and the linear beginner's program stopped working for me. I also found that the beginner program was just too much do also do the bike training in-season. I picked up "Practical Programing" and started experimenting a little bit. Basically, I think what I've been doing has also been Texas method, but the variety where the mid-week day is the explosive, Dynamic Efforts day. I really like the idea of DE from a sprinter's point of view, and on that plan I improved my press quite a bit. But then I found when the racing season started, I had to drop a day and go to two days a week, which really just took me out of SS land. I still base everything I do off the ideas I got from that book, but then as we moved back to the States, I started working more and then the kid arrived-- it was all out the window.

The last couple of months are the first time I've had the time to make three gym days a week in the last two years. So now it's at least a possibility to do the SS program. But I know my body. I just can't put on the poundage every session like you're meant to, unless it's after a rather severe de-loading. I think Starting Strength is just awesome, and riders who have more time are wise to follow it to the letter, at least in the off season. I did that for a while, but I found my limits with it in terms of time and also physiologically. As always, to other who are reading this, your milage may vary. [I hate internet acronyms]

Quinn8it 02-24-14 10:51 PM

New Variation on my Road Training
 
So i stumbled on an old (2004'ish) NOS Cannondale CAAD4 on eBay a couple weeks ago- i put in a low bid and ended up getting the frame uncontested.. i was thinking i would build it up as a Single Speed using a bunch of parts i had laying around, and possibly use it for a crit. As the build process went along i started upgrading little bits and ended up with a pretty cool build..


so the thing is- i can rarely do crits, because of the scheduling. so i decided to give the Single Speed a go on my Normal Saturday group ride. I do the "NOW Ride" basically every saturday this time of year- its about 45miles, an out and back course. the first half of the ride, to the re-group/turn-around is full on Race Pace, the first 30minutes of that flat and super fast- averaging 26mph for the business. Next up is a 2.5-3min Power Climb that obliterates the pack- followed by another 30min of what i would classify as more than "rollers".. the return stays civil until through most of the climbing, then ramps up for the flat section through Malibu into Santa Monica. The final sprint is a disaster, as we have been at nearly 30mph for a couple thousand meters before the line is in sight..
Its a good fast training ride run by the road racers!
http://www.strava.com/activities/115256327/overview

So i rolled out on the CAAD in a 50x16(84"), a bit unsure of my gearing, but i was waiting on some parts and didn't have any other options. I knew i would be fine in the fast flats- and i assumed i would get dropped like a bag of garbage on the first climb, i get dropped on that hill every week on a geared bike- so i assumed this would be way worse... my plan was to spin around after i got dropped and wait for the group on the way back..

Lots of jokes on the roll-out from the coffee shop- the bike is a beast with 36cm Nitto 125's and Carbon wheels- and I'm sure the consensus was that i wouldn't make it far..
any way- funny thing happened! No problem, as expected through the flats, and quickly changing my climbing style to standing warfare and a little luck from a well timed stoplight, and i topped the hill with the lead group for the first time ever.. actually felt good and finished with the front group- although i was too smoked to contest the sprint!

interesting to see that i have been totally choking myself out on the climbs by following my track tendency to spin it- and some big gear mashing is all i needed to do! Looks like i will keep the Single Speed for this weekly training ride- its really a fun way to go- and great track training!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-i...o/IMG_0385.JPG
The Build:
2004 Cannondale CAAD 4 (never built up)
Nitto 125's 36cm/Thomson (actually different than pictured)
Sram Rival- 165mm w/ Stages Power Meter
Planet X super light brakes
china 50mm's

rensho3 02-25-14 01:23 PM

Very nice. I have a CAAD 3 that I turned into a fixie when the shifters broke. It was cheaper to do the conversion that buy new shift levers. My club does all of their rides from October 1 to January 1 as a group on fixies using 65 inch gears to even the playing field. The routes are a combination of flat and some serious climbs. A lot of fun, and, as you say, great for the track. There are days when I wish it was a single speed instead of a fixie, but then again, the downhills really promote leg speed!

carleton 02-25-14 01:38 PM

Nice find, Quinn.

My update:

Someone put a box of designer donuts just 10 feet from my desk yesterday. Like one had white frosting with Oreo crumbles on top. "Muther F...." I looked in that damned box 3 times throughout the day. It was in there all day.

I didn't eat one. I ate a square of flatbread with my lunch.

Not the Slowest 02-25-14 04:13 PM

Getting back to training question.
I know there was a moment in the thread that discussed Standard Squats - Front Squats - Inclined Leg Press, the pro-con and just general talk on it.

I had a bad upper back injury in the gym while doing a squat (bad form on my part). The recovery from pain was a long haul and I was always just pissed that I was sooo stupid. Of course stuff happens so I just went forward and had a good season. This winter other injuries, bad luck, business has kept me behind schedule.

So here's my issue. I am NOT running to the scene of the crime with Standard Squats (for now) as I'm still a bit bugged out about another injury.
I have on the other hand been working myself back up with Incline Leg Presses, doing 3 x 10 @ 500-550lbs., plus 2 x 10 @270-450 warm up.
Am I gaining anything from this?
Should I be adding weight lower reps? I get in the gym 2 maybe 3x a week.

Thanks

carleton 02-25-14 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not the Slowest (Post 16526627)
Am I gaining anything from this?

Yes. Simply put: Anything is better than nothing.

There are many athletes that use the leg press for various reasons. These include:

- To avoid using their backs under heavy loads. The back can be a limiting factor (injury being a very common reason). Some do leg press till their back heals.
- To avoid a chronic injury. Some do leg press to avoid agitating a herniated disc. This is my problem. Once the weight gets over 250lbs, my hearniated disc is subject to flare up and hurts throughout the week. It can be debilitating.
- To work the legs harder than they could if their back was also being used....like this:

http://cdn1.coresites.mpora.com/rcuk.../chris-hoy.jpg

The whole purpose is to get tension on the leg muscles and over-work them a bit to initiate growth. The back is simply the middle-man.

Remember, some elite track sprinters don't even lift weights at all :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not the Slowest (Post 16526627)
Should I be adding weight lower reps? I get in the gym 2 maybe 3x a week.


This is a question of Programming. There are lots of good beginner programs out there (Starting Strength, Stronglifts, etc...) that are designed around the Back Squat, but can easily be adapted to leg press. But, if you tweak the program, you have to maybe add exercises to make up for what you are missing with the squat.

Maybe inquire in the Weightlifting thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...Weight-Lifting!!!!

Baby Puke 02-25-14 05:43 PM

Leg press. I'm doing it, but a point Quinn brought up has me consigning it to a secondary lift, and it will go out of my program in-season. The issue is the weight: You do have to use a LOT of weight to get any use out of it it seems, and it feels like this is to a greater extent than any of the squat varieties, which on the contrary feel like they can be difficult without being super heavy. Probably this is because they are compound lifts and stress multiple systems. But yeah, when things get really heavy, the potential for injury is still there. I'm approaching 225 for single leg press, and this seems heavy and my knees feel vulnerable. If something went wrong with 225 on one knee that would be a bad one, so I will bail out of this before it gets ridiculously heavy. Just my take on it.

The back squat has to get relatively heavy to keep giving you gains, and for me the danger spot is the low back. There are other varieties that are harder with less weight, namely the front squat and the zercher squat. Front squat does seem to stress the knees more than the back squat, and with the zercher I found the limit was how much pain I could endure from the bar pressing against my forearms/arm-crooks (is that a word?). It's always something.

carleton 02-25-14 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Puke (Post 16526838)
Leg press. I'm doing it, but a point Quinn brought up has me consigning it to a secondary lift, and it will go out of my program in-season. The issue is the weight: You do have to use a LOT of weight to get any use out of it it seems, and it feels like this is to a greater extent than any of the squat varieties, which on the contrary feel like they can be difficult without being super heavy. Probably this is because they are compound lifts and stress multiple systems. But yeah, when things get really heavy, the potential for injury is still there. I'm approaching 225 for single leg press, and this seems heavy and my knees feel vulnerable. If something went wrong with 225 on one knee that would be a bad one, so I will bail out of this before it gets ridiculously heavy. Just my take on it.

The back squat has to get relatively heavy to keep giving you gains, and for me the danger spot is the low back. There are other varieties that are harder with less weight, namely the front squat and the zercher squat. Front squat does seem to stress the knees more than the back squat, and with the zercher I found the limit was how much pain I could endure from the bar pressing against my forearms/arm-crooks (is that a word?). It's always something.

You are right that the leg press, at very high weights, is dangerous as well. Instead of the back being worked, the load it put on the hip socket. Also, there is risk of rounding the back and herniating a disc.

I'm up to 430lbs on single leg press (45 deg sled) and still progressing in this block (fingers-crossed).

Quinn8it 02-25-14 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not the Slowest (Post 16526627)
I have on the other hand been working myself back up with Incline Leg Presses, doing 3 x 10 @ 500-550lbs., plus 2 x 10 @270-450 warm up.
Am I gaining anything from this?
Should I be adding weight lower reps? I get in the gym 2 maybe 3x a week.

Thanks

that rep range (sets of 10's) is firmly in Hypertrophy territory. ie- mass building bodybuilder type stuff.
Strength gains are maximized in sets of reps at around 6 or less..

now that doesn't mean it is totally out of line or wasted training- but you should be aware of what it accomplishes..
Hypertrophy work literally increases the size of the muscle- by increasing fluid between the muscle fibers. it adds very little to strength

higher rep ranges might be good for building volume in a program for a new or recovering athlete, but it is questionable if the mass built during the hypertrophy phase actually adapts once more strength focused training starts..

Not the Slowest 02-26-14 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16526725)
Yes. Simply put: Anything is better than nothing.


Maybe inquire in the Weightlifting thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...Weight-Lifting!!!!

Will do, Thanks..Robert

Not the Slowest 02-26-14 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn8it (Post 16527574)
that rep range (sets of 10's) is firmly in Hypertrophy territory. ie- mass building bodybuilder type stuff.
Strength gains are maximized in sets of reps at around 6 or less..

now that doesn't mean it is totally out of line or wasted training- but you should be aware of what it accomplishes..
Hypertrophy work literally increases the size of the muscle- by increasing fluid between the muscle fibers. it adds very little to strength

higher rep ranges might be good for building volume in a program for a new or recovering athlete, but it is questionable if the mass built during the hypertrophy phase actually adapts once more strength focused training starts..

Thanks, I have my homework assignment

carleton 02-28-14 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16512403)
I think the Felt is off of the table.

So, now it's down to the Hoy or Custom.

I met with a guy last night in his shop. He knows his stuff and came via a recommendation from a friend who races track. The builder is putting together a proper quote for an aluminum frame for me, but his ballpark price is fair.

I've decided to go with a local custom builder. ETA will be mid-April or early May.

This isn't entirely necessary, but it's nice to have a project.

Impreza_aL 02-28-14 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16511257)
"sprint"

By the way, nice max power. I was referring to your "sprint" workout being 72 miles with 4,500ft of climbing! Geez. I'd need a taxi half way into the ride.

I once tried to sprint during a long ride. I wanted to beat a car to the next stop light. I won...then I lost. I pretty much depleted all of my glycogen in that one sprint and I had to limp home for the next hour. Worst feeling ever.

So, I applaud that you can do this at any time during a long ride like that.

haha i know =(

just trying to build some scratch race endurance so i can be there at the end.

i do get envious seeing y'all in the gym and cranking out those crazy numbers.

i've been wanting to go to the gym to do some strength/power work and try and increase my power.

carleton 02-28-14 03:46 PM

Today it's a warm and sunny 65F/18C. I think to myself, "Hey, maybe I'll go to the track tomorrow and get some laps in and work out the kinks of my new bike fit!"

I look at the weather forecast for tomorrow (Saturday): "34F/1C and SNOW".

CRAP.


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