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  1. #26
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    The other enhancement that could be made is to return to a -5 cm setback and extend the aerobars 5cm to the 80 cm limit and practice sitting on the nose of the saddle. Typically, more rotation forward improves CdA.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  2. #27
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    OK BabyPuke…
    lets see if i can take what i dish out!

    Disclaimer:
    this is the first time i put aero bars on this frame.
    i just switched everything over from my Dolan..
    So this is truly a fist shot at transferring my Aero Position.

    Last year i was on a short TT saddle at -5cm, this year I'm on a Sprint Saddle at -2cm
    I had to pull my extensions back to be UCI compliant, and i switched to straight bars from "r" bars and shortened the stem..

    If you are set on your saddle setback, then I'd like to see you on a frame that is maybe 2-3cm longer.

    Your upper arm is vertical. Your elbows are directly below your shoulder socket. If you had a longer top tube, that would allow your elbows to extend forward a bit and take your upper arm off of a 90deg angle and lower your shoulders/back some.



    Also, have you tried "ski bend" extensions? They are easier on the inside of the wrist than the other shapes. When I was doing Kilo training I tried all of the different bends: straight, ski, and "s" bend. The ski bend felt the most stable when powering through corners. Like I was holding on better. Also, it is arguable that your firsts up in front of you help split the air a-la "praying mantis" style (that is now illegal, but ski bends are not).


  3. #28
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Ski bend and elbows in front of the shoulder socket:



    Also noticed that his eyes are well behind the front axle.

    Last edited by carleton; 02-28-14 at 01:11 PM.

  4. #29
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    All good notes!
    I don't disagree with anything said so far.

    A couple of things:
    The frame is short- 2cm shorter than my Tiemeyer. I compensated on the Dolan by using a 2cm longer stem. I switched to the shorter stem on the Eimei to help put my bars in compliance, since I am planning to run my saddle inside 5cm..

    On the Dolan I swapped saddles every time I put on aero bars. So saddles changed 2 times a session, 2 days a week.. The Eimei post is prone to slipping, and I was hoping to avoid changing saddles.. I don't think it can handle the repeated changes.

    "r" bars versus "straight"
    I have always used "r" bars. I switched to Straight to help stay inside the extension limit. It seems to be agreed that the straight bars allow more tension and leverage allowing higher power output- I find that critical for the Kilo and my limited time on them confirms this is true.. We'll see..
    Last edited by Quinn8it; 02-28-14 at 02:21 PM.

  5. #30
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    The frame is short- 2cm shorter than my Tiemeyer. I compensated on the Dolan by using a 2cm longer stem. I switched to the shorter stem on the Eimei to help put my bars in compliance, since I am planning to run my saddle inside 5cm..
    If this Eimei is 2cm shorter than the Tiemeyer and the Tiemeyer is not being used, why not promote that to being your Kilo bike and leave your Dolan as your Sprint/Scratch bike? That way you can get your arms more forward and your back down some and still stay in compliance.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    I am the only person in 700 frames who broke the frame at the seat binder bolt..

    2 mos after David closed shop...

    RIP MY Baby...

    Id still have to swap saddles on the Tiemeyer...

  7. #32
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    I am the only person in 700 frames who broke the frame at the seat binder bolt..

    2 mos after David closed shop...

    RIP MY Baby...

    Id still have to swap saddles on the Tiemeyer...
    Damn. Well, the guy that is building my new frame works with Aluminum if you ever decide to try to salvage the Tiemeyer. I've seen aluminum frames be repaired. A buddy of mine loved one of the AL Cannondale frames and damaged a seat stay in a crash. The frame was discontinued when he stopped racing for a couple of years. He was able to have it repaired and he raced it for a couple of seasons when he got back into the game.

    Maybe someone can cut the aero seat mast and fashion a topper with a 27.2 hole on top that accepts a standard seatpost clamp.

  8. #33
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    To get a lower CdA with the same position, you could practice turtling your head which means you lower your neck with your head in the same position.
    Indeed. If he is going to forego getting lower/flatter to ensure he isn't sacrificing power (which probably makes sense given his unique proportions), then he would be wise to learn the Racer Ex tuck:


  9. #34
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Next Position

    ok-
    as best as i can do with my remedial bike fit skills:
    this is damn close to the position i worked out with Tiemeyer and is exactly the position i rode all last year…

    i had to go back to the TT saddle set-back at 5cm.. and i pushed the Extensions out to 78cm or so..

    The Skin Suit is just a little gift for you guys!

  10. #35
    Senior Member
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    That looks a little slicker to me, but my natural feeling would be to want to see your butt back a little more. But then again, so far everybody else who's posted is way more forward than me so perhaps I'm the outlier.

    Nice muscles. I remember when you wore that for TS in T-town.

  11. #36
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Ski bend and elbows in front of the shoulder socket:
    watch the vid closely- he is choked up on the bars- basically grabbing the Ski Bend bar on the flat- like a Straight Bar

  12. #37
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    That looks a little slicker to me, but my natural feeling would be to want to see your butt back a little more. But then again, so far everybody else who's posted is way more forward than me so perhaps I'm the outlier.

    Nice muscles. I remember when you wore that for TS in T-town.
    yeh- thats much better and is basically the position i worked out with Tiemeyer and a local fitter here in LA when we designed my Tiemeyer.. we spent 2 days on the fit bike testing position and power output.. Tiemeyer was certain i would end up with my saddle at 0 set-back and he was right- all the testing showed that as the best..

    As for the Suit... ugh.. that Nats started my little mini-run of always finishing dead last at Team Sprint.. you would have to be insane to have me on your squad! lol

  13. #38
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I think it's better. At least now you don't look like you are leaning past your arms. But, I still think you need a longer TT to get the position that other kilo riders use and stay legal.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I think it's better. At least now you don't look like you are leaning past your arms. But, I still think you need a longer TT to get the position that other kilo riders use and stay legal.
    Some of that length will have to come out of how i hold the extensions and what part of my arm contacts the pad.. I have never ridden the rollers in aero bars- so i cant really say i was in optimum position..

    im basically at the maximum on the extension.. longer TT would eat into extension length..

  15. #40
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Some of that length will have to come out of how i hold the extensions and what part of my arm contacts the pad.. I have never ridden the rollers in aero bars- so i cant really say i was in optimum position..

    im basically at the maximum on the extension.. longer TT would eat into extension length..
    Ah.




    Screw it all and do it Eddy Merckx style! I tied my aerobar PB in drop bars (that goes to show how sorry my aerobar PB was, hahaha)

  16. #41
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    My turn. Here's my "TT" position. This is as aero as I'm gonna get this season

    The bike:


    The dork on the bike:


    58.0cm TT
    76 degree seat tube with saddle all the way back in a straight seatpost. Saddle nose setback is 7cm.
    Stem is -10 degree 130mm.

    You guys can probably see how I can benefit from maybe 2cm more in the TT...if not more. Also, new bike will have 74 degree seat tube.
    Last edited by carleton; 02-28-14 at 10:10 PM.

  17. #42
    Senior Member
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    Have you got your wrists rolled to the inside of the bar there?

    Agree you could use a little more room on the top tube.

  18. #43
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    if you need more reach- which i agree you probably do- why use the shortest reach bars?

  19. #44
    Senior Member
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    Yeah, what happens if you put those Eastons on?

    By the way, who had thoughts on Hermes' position? Everybody looks too far forward to me (kept Carleton), so I probably shouldn't comment.

  20. #45
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Everybody looks too far forward to me
    can you show us a picture of someone who rides TT in a more back position?

  21. #46
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Have you got your wrists rolled to the inside of the bar there?
    Yeah

    Sorry. I gotta work on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    if you need more reach- which i agree you probably do- why use the shortest reach bars?
    For 2 reasons:

    1) I need to get comfortable with these bars. I keep trying them and ditching them for my Eastons knowing full-well that I need every aero advantage I can get. So, I'm forcing myself.
    2) Using the Easton EC90s (which have 2-3cm more reach) combined with the 130mm -10 stem, I exceed the "5cm in front of the front axle" rule. I've measured.

  22. #47
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Here is the bike with the Eastons using a 120mm 0 degree stem with a 5mm stack:



    Using -10 degree 130mm stem adds 1.5cm more reach over the 0 degree 120mm and the 5mm stack as in the photo above.


  23. #48
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post

    1) I need to get comfortable with these bars. I keep trying them and ditching them for my Eastons knowing full-well that I need every aero advantage I can get. So, I'm forcing myself.
    What do you think is more aero about Scattos?
    the width? or the tube shape?

    my Tiemeyer was built specifically around Scattos.. when i switched to the DF3 and lost 2cm in TT (from 59cm to 57cm) i just switched nitto 125's on the same length stem (110mm) cockpit stayed nearly the same..

    i dont miss Scattos at all.. in LA they are on every bike- and most of the bikes were not bought with the intention of running them.. i call them "Fit Wreckers".. i would say there is zero benefit from them..

  24. #49
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    What do you think is more aero about Scattos?
    the width? or the tube shape?

    my Tiemeyer was built specifically around Scattos.. when i switched to the DF3 and lost 2cm in TT (from 59cm to 57cm) i just switched nitto 125's on the same length stem (110mm) cockpit stayed nearly the same..

    i dont miss Scattos at all.. in LA they are on every bike- and most of the bikes were not bought with the intention of running them.. i call them "Fit Wreckers".. i would say there is zero benefit from them..
    Well, the interesting thing is that they are more narrow at the front than the back. The "37cm" Scattos measure 37cm at the grip ends, but up at the front (where you'd grab during an aero tuck like in a flying 200m) they are as narrow as 35cm, whereas the Eastons are 38cm from back to front.

    I don't think that these bars will take 0.5 seconds off of my F200M. But, they will help.

    Don't get me wrong. I kept going back to the Eastons because my start was better in them. I was intoxicated by those power numbers

  25. #50
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Are these the right dimensions for your easton bars?
    WIDTH (CM): 38, 40
    REACH: 75MM
    DROP: 130MM
    Jesus!!! whats a big boy like you doing on tiny bars like those??
    http://www.bicyclebuys.com/item/1630598-38/easton-ec90-track-pro-carbon-handlebar-38&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=comparison-shopping&utm_campaign=Froogle?gclid=CJKQsK_W8LwCFQhgfgodQJ4AeQ

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