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  1. #51
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    Here's my drops position for comparison, sorry the top of my back is cut off. Same saddle position.


  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    can you show us a picture of someone who rides TT in a more back position?
    Probably not! All is based on Yoda's secret knowledge. I'm definitely not saying that I'm doing it right. I've just been stuck on the 'back for more power' tip

  3. #53
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Probably not! All is based on Yoda's secret knowledge. I'm definitely not saying that I'm doing it right. I've just been stuck on the 'back for more power' tip
    right- and thats a valid technique while in the drops(although not at all what i do).. but i don't think its optimal in aero bars, especially for a guy who gets as low as you

  4. #54
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    Hmm.

  5. #55
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Are these the right dimensions for your easton bars?
    WIDTH (CM): 38, 40
    REACH: 75MM
    DROP: 130MM
    Jesus!!! whats a big boy like you doing on tiny bars like those??
    http://www.bicyclebuys.com/item/1630598-38/easton-ec90-track-pro-carbon-handlebar-38&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=comparison-shopping&utm_campaign=Froogle?gclid=CJKQsK_W8LwCFQhgfgodQJ4AeQ
    Easton EC90s have as much reach as any others on the market. I can't think of any bars that have more reach. 38cm works for me.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    So then the measurements on my link must not be from the bars you have..
    I'm not familiar with the bars myself- but 75mm reach/130 drop is 35-scatto territory.. Compared to say a nitto 123 with 108mm reach

  7. #57
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    The Eastons I run are near identical to my 123s. I hear there is a new more compact Easton, maybe that's what you're seeing.

  8. #58
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    The Eastons I run are near identical to my 123s. I hear there is a new more compact Easton, maybe that's what you're seeing.
    Yup.

    The Easton EC90 is an unabashed copy of the Nitto B123. Basically a Carbon Nitto B123.

  9. #59
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    So then the measurements on my link must not be from the bars you have..
    I'm not familiar with the bars myself- but 75mm reach/130 drop is 35-scatto territory.. Compared to say a nitto 123 with 108mm reach
    Yeah, the measurements on various sites have the EC90s and the Scattos about the same or the EC90s smaller. They are noticeably different in drop and reach. The EC90s reach out about 2cm further and down about 2-3cm deeper. I have owned both since 2011.

    The EC90s are equivalent to the Nitto B123 in drop and reach. But the EC90 has a longer (backwards of the clamp area) than the B123.
    The Scattos are very similar in drop and reach to the Nitto B125. But the Scatto has a longer (backwards of the clamp area) than the B125.
    Last edited by carleton; 03-01-14 at 02:40 AM.

  10. #60
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    By the way, who had thoughts on Hermes' position? Everybody looks too far forward to me (kept Carleton), so I probably shouldn't comment.
    Hermes looks almost textbook perfect to me (at least for someone his height, and especially his Masters category). He's put a ton of work into it, and it shows.

    I'm curious why you think everyone is too far forward... I thought it was pretty standard that all the TT/tri guys are trying to get as far forward as physically/legally possible?

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Hermes looks almost textbook perfect to me (at least for someone his height, and especially his Masters category). He's put a ton of work into it, and it shows.

    I'm curious why you think everyone is too far forward... I thought it was pretty standard that all the TT/tri guys are trying to get as far forward as physically/legally possible?

    Well, because somebody who's ideas I thought were good encouraged me to stay back as much as possible, especially in TT position. I know this flies in the face of the logic of road TT's at the moment. It just makes some sense that as you move forward you have a less advantageous relationship to the pedals as far as torque goes. But maybe I should re-think this. I am more forward already than I've ever been.

  12. #62
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    i'll post mine soon but check out the local track heroes...





    dave mccook



    rob evans
    fried chicken and waffles.

  13. #63
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Well, because somebody who's ideas I thought were good encouraged me to stay back as much as possible, especially in TT position. I know this flies in the face of the logic of road TT's at the moment. It just makes some sense that as you move forward you have a less advantageous relationship to the pedals as far as torque goes. But maybe I should re-think this. I am more forward already than I've ever been.
    Well, id say there is some logic to that. Maximizing power has a whole lot going for it.
    Ive heard that the perfect 'pursuit' set up is a balance between power output and aerodynamics -
    The two requirements tend to pull in opposite directions, as this discussion has highlighted, so first prize is to find that point where graphs of the two would intersect.

  14. #64
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    To paraphrase Chris Boardman, "Start with a position as low as you can physically go, then rise up till the power comes on."

    Here is an old photo of Sarah Hammer's setup. I would guess that she's 5cm back.


  15. #65
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Hermes looks almost textbook perfect to me (at least for someone his height, and especially his Masters category). He's put a ton of work into it, and it shows.

    I'm curious why you think everyone is too far forward... I thought it was pretty standard that all the TT/tri guys are trying to get as far forward as physically/legally possible?

    Thanks Vance. I have spent a lot of time perfecting the position as well as time in the saddle riding in the position. One of the benefits of aero testing at VSC is that you ride your bike around the track at power while testing various configurations of equipment and position.

    BTW, I also did the aero testing at Hellyer put on by Max Jenkins. It is excellent and I learned a lot about different equipment and my riding.

    One aspect of the aero versus power discussion is that a lower CdA is always an advantage. CdA is constant over all speeds and air densities. Human power fluctuates day to day and is dependent on temperature and humidity and fatigue. In general, it is more difficult for most riders to produce power as the hip angle is reduced BUT that can be overcome with strength, adaptation and practice which may be weeks and months of work.

    Also different events may require a different setup i.e. kilo versus pursuit versus team pursuit. One may want to be higher with the aerobars wider in team pursuit than individual pursuit.

    The beauty of testing with a power meter at VSC or Hellyer is that you get objective results versus having to rely on dogma. If you are faster sitting back on the saddle at a higher CdA then what others think about the position does not matter. However, it is my opinion that once a racer tests and sees how much power is required to overcome small increases in CdA, his mind is put in a different place and he goes for the best position at the lowest CdA.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  16. #66
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Here is an old photo of Sarah Hammer's setup. I would guess that she's 5cm back.
    There is a difference between "saddle position" and where you ride on that saddle..

    For example, compare Babypukes Aero Video to my second.. Babypuke's saddle is more forward than mine.. I'm at -5cm

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    right- and thats a valid technique while in the drops(although not at all what i do).. but i don't think its optimal in aero bars, especially for a guy who gets as low as you
    Ok, I take back what I said here- have a look at our boy Pervis. He's pretty far back there, and he stays back throughout his ride. I guess this is still how the French are doing it.

  18. #68
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    Ok, I take back what I said here- have a look at our boy Pervis. He's pretty far back there, and he stays back throughout his ride. I guess this is still how the French are doing it.
    Just for reference:


  19. #69
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    2012 Olympic Men's Omnium Pics

    Brits







    Austrailia



    New Zealand



    Denmark - Winner



    Bobby Lea USA Elite Pursuit National Champion

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  20. #70
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    I will add that pursuit is likely to look a bit different to kilo and I would think would mirror road tt style more.

  21. #71
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    I will add that pursuit is likely to look a bit different to kilo and I would think would mirror road tt style more.
    Not just because of the event distance, but also because of the types of riders who do the respective events. Riders who compete in pursuit probably also are time trialists on the road. Riders who compete in kilo are more likely to be track sprinters. Very different optimization between power and aerodynamics between these two rider types.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  22. #72
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Here is the Hoy in his final appearance doing the kilo - flat back, head down, full rotation forward and sitting on the nose of the saddle.

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #73
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Here is the Hoy in his final appearance doing the kilo - flat back, head down, full rotation forward and sitting on the nose of the saddle.

    [video=youtube;meTomy4M8dw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meTomy4M8dw[/vi deo]
    image.jpg

    Compared to the pursuiters, Hoy is still pretty high and back with his position. His ears are above his back. Compare that to some of the skinnier pursuiters, where the ears are nearly in line with their hips.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  24. #74
    Senior Member
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    I'm not neccessarily saying back is best, Hermes, just that back is also represented (well, WR and WC) in kilo.

  25. #75
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I wonder if crank length (relative to the rider) is the deciding factor with regard to riding with TT bars "from the back" or "on top" of the pedals.

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