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Old 03-02-14, 02:12 PM   #76
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I would love to know Pervis' crank length, gear inches and max rpm for the kilo. As it is, he's riding kilo classic 'sprinter style', that is, going out like a bomb and dying a bit last lap, in contrast to the previous dominator, Nimke, who typically started 'slow' and had the fastest last 250 by a good margin. Van Velotooven seems to ride it Nimke style as his first lap is often only mid-pack. Clearly both styles (position wise and race-plan wise) are effective, probably just comes down to what suits you best.
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Old 03-02-14, 02:33 PM   #77
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Re Carleton,
Just seeing going through this thread for the first time, you say your set back is 7cm, yet you're forward on your saddle by at least 3-4cm.
If I was going to experiment, I would level out the saddle a little bit and move it forward to 5cm (so you aren't sliding forward on it)and play with rolling your bars a little to stretch you out. It might not be the best hand position but it will give you an idea on what the rest of the set up feels like, and if you want to go in that direction.

Last edited by Cantrackie; 03-02-14 at 02:35 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 03-02-14, 02:34 PM   #78
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I wonder if crank length (relative to the rider) is the deciding factor with regard to riding with TT bars "from the back" or "on top" of the pedals.
imo, this is a bigger factor than many might consider, especially as part of a bigger whole (biometrics).
From my perspective as a shorter than average rider, I am aware that i'm technically pedaling a much bigger circle relative to my overall leg-length, compared to a lot of taller riders (even on 165mm cranks). This means my knees come a lot 'higher' in my pedal stroke than those of most of my training buddies.

So, a shorter rider will have a tighter hip angle already, before you throw aerobar positioning into the mix, regardless.

Aside from overall height, there is leg: torso ratio, and also overall flexibility.

i read a study comparing physiology and anatomy of the various specialists in track racing, that found pursuit specialists to be, on average taller (unsuprisingly) but also have relatively longer legs than general enduros, and certainly than sprinters. Sprinters, on average, were relatively the shortest of the lot.

possibly then a biometric contribution to the kilo vs pursuit positions, in addition to a different power/ aero optimal point?

watching some old downloaded race vids with new eyes having been following this thread, i noticed that in general men's pursuit team riders (forgive me for focussing more on the pursuiters than sprinters :-) ) generally seemed to have more open hip angles than the women. height?


there were also some distinct 'team' differences, where a particular country's squad seemed to favour a particular position, whereas another squad had different leanings.

anyway, what i'm getting at is that its a fascinating discussion, with a hell of a lot of variables, and so almost impossible to prescribe the perfect position, if its not in reference to a particular individual
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Old 03-02-14, 04:00 PM   #79
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Re Carleton,
Just seeing going through this thread for the first time, you say your set back is 7cm, yet you're forward on your saddle by at least 3-4cm.
If I was going to experiment, I would level out the saddle a little bit and move it forward to 5cm (so you aren't sliding forward on it)and play with rolling your bars a little to stretch you out. It might not be the best hand position but it will give you an idea on what the rest of the set up feels like, and if you want to go in that direction.
I'll give that a try. Thanks!
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Old 03-02-14, 04:17 PM   #80
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imo, this is a bigger factor than many might consider, especially as part of a bigger whole (biometrics).
From my perspective as a shorter than average rider, I am aware that i'm technically pedaling a much bigger circle relative to my overall leg-length, compared to a lot of taller riders (even on 165mm cranks). This means my knees come a lot 'higher' in my pedal stroke than those of most of my training buddies.

So, a shorter rider will have a tighter hip angle already, before you throw aerobar positioning into the mix, regardless.

Aside from overall height, there is leg: torso ratio, and also overall flexibility.

i read a study comparing physiology and anatomy of the various specialists in track racing, that found pursuit specialists to be, on average taller (unsuprisingly) but also have relatively longer legs than general enduros, and certainly than sprinters. Sprinters, on average, were relatively the shortest of the lot.

possibly then a biometric contribution to the kilo vs pursuit positions, in addition to a different power/ aero optimal point?

watching some old downloaded race vids with new eyes having been following this thread, i noticed that in general men's pursuit team riders (forgive me for focussing more on the pursuiters than sprinters :-) ) generally seemed to have more open hip angles than the women. height?


there were also some distinct 'team' differences, where a particular country's squad seemed to favour a particular position, whereas another squad had different leanings.

anyway, what i'm getting at is that its a fascinating discussion, with a hell of a lot of variables, and so almost impossible to prescribe the perfect position, if its not in reference to a particular individual
Those are great observations.

It's great to note that there is no perfect position. Just perfect for a particular rider. Sometimes it's easy to say what position is detrimental to a rider, but difficult to say what will make them significantly faster. Take me for example, my F200M, Kilo, 500M times have all been hovering in the same area for years through several frames, crank lengths, gear ratios, windup styles, etc... It seems that I eliminated the bad parts early, but haven't settled on the best setup for me. I think that there is an extra 0.5" to be gained in my F200M and 5" in my Kilo. Finding it has been a challenge for me.

And to add on to Hermes' thoughts: Numbers don't lie. I think that's the reason why many use power meters and speed and cadence data. It really speeds up the testing process by providing more data for analysis. Some things that may not show up via stopwatch splits may be present in power, speed, and cadence data analysis. When timing data is measured down to tenths of a second, it's really difficult to extrapolate that and make big decisions like: saddle setback, crank length, which aero bars. Not to mention the time it takes for the body to become comfortable with a new position or crank length. I guess that's what keeps it fun and interesting: The hope that one day I'll stumble on the right formula and unlock the speed
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Old 03-02-14, 09:05 PM   #81
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Carleton-
I'm a little confused..
Are you saying that you think the missing link for improving your times is equipment/position based?
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Old 03-02-14, 09:23 PM   #82
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Carleton-
I'm a little confused..
Are you saying that you think the missing link for improving your times is equipment/position based?
No. When I wrote, "The hope that one day I'll stumble on the right formula and unlock the speed", I'm saying that figuring out what training, equipment, fit, events, diet, etc... suits me is the challenge. Doing a lot of the wrong thing isn't as helpful as doing a lot of the right thing.
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Old 03-02-14, 09:30 PM   #83
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Ah....

for or me it stacks up in this order:
Training/Diet/Fit/Equipment
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Old 03-02-14, 09:30 PM   #84
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an extra 0.5" to be gained in my F200M and 5" in my Kilo
When you find the answer, take my money please!
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Old 03-02-14, 09:50 PM   #85
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Ah....

for or me it stacks up in this order:
Training/Diet/Fit/Equipment
I'm with you.

Check this. I rode a 12.6" during my 2nd flying 200M ever, 4 months after I got on the track. I was fat (huge) and had only 4 months of racing newbie races once a week as "training". At that time, I hadn't seen a gym in ages. I was better friends with Mr. Guinness than Mr. Iron.

The million dollar question is: Why am I still hovering in the high 11" / low 12" area now years later after all of the dedicated training, dieting, road miles, gym work, coaching, equipment, etc...? My 500M is only 3" faster than my first 500M ever (which was 38"). What happened? Or didn't happen? Was I a blazing fast newbie or sorry as a trained masters racer?

I know that whatever works for most people certainly doesn't work for me. I'm not sure why, but that's what happened.

I recall an anecdotal story that someone wrote on FGF about a new racer that was plucked from a gym and put on a track bike. One of his first flying 200Ms ever was crazy fast. He was put on a program to become even faster. He never saw that initial speed ever again.

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When you find the answer, take my money please!
I'm working on it. I'm going to write a book entitled: How to Spend Thousands of Dollars Banging Your Head Against the Wall at 140-150 RPM to Win a Shirt That You Can't Wear Anywhere But on the Podium
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Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.

Last edited by carleton; 03-03-14 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 03-03-14, 02:39 PM   #86
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Couldn't resist trying this, here is a more radical position. Butt the same, bars about 1cm lower and further back.


Thoughts welcome.
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Old 03-03-14, 03:59 PM   #87
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My concern is that moving the bars back is actually going to close the hip angle down even more- if when fatigue sets in you can't hold that arched back..

As as it is it looks pretty good
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Old 03-03-14, 04:12 PM   #88
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Thanks Quinn. I think I can hold it, I maintain that arch by pushing back into the seat, which is the main reason I can't ride forward on the saddle as you suggested earlier. And moving the bars back hopefully gives me a stronger point to push back from. I'm gonna give this a shot, at least in pre-season.
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Old 03-03-14, 05:31 PM   #89
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My concern is that moving the bars back is actually going to close the hip angle down even more- if when fatigue sets in you can't hold that arched back..

As as it is it looks pretty good
+1 and The position looks good but I am concerned about the arched back putting pressure on the discs in the lower back plus losing power. I suggest maintaining the same position but try to lift your chest. If you lift your chest, your lower back will flatten. Watch the video and note that when your go from the bull horns to the aerobars, your back arches. Keep your chest up as you go to the aerobars and see if your back stays flatter. I think of this move like a dead lift. I want my back in a powerful position to maintain glute power and protect my back. When the back is arched, the glutes are de-emphasized and the back and quads do more work.
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Old 03-03-14, 05:55 PM   #90
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I'll throw up a couple of wagers:

You'll be steering all over the place
Your shoulders and upper arms will tire quickly
The power will drop off within a few hard laps

How long is your event and how long have you ridden this position on the trainer?
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Old 03-03-14, 05:57 PM   #91
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Hermes, appreciate the feedback, but respectfully disagree about the flat back thing, for my application. Did that as a roadie trying to emulate Lemond and Fignon (dating myself right there...), and that is a great position for endurance stuff as you are low and aerodynamic. This is still the best position for road TT and pursuit (as per the photos posted in this thread). The reason for pushing back and arching up the low back is precisely to open the hip angle and be able to activate the posterior chain. Watch the recent world championships and I think you will predominantly see this position among the sprinters, and that's what I'm going for in my slow, middle-aged way. Incidentally, I've had far fewer on-bike (gym is another issue...) low back issues in my second incarnation as a track sprinter than I did in my youth as a roadie.
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Old 03-03-14, 06:03 PM   #92
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I'll throw up a couple of wagers:

You'll be steering all over the place
Your shoulders and upper arms will tire quickly
The power will drop off within a few hard laps

How long is your event and how long have you ridden this position on the trainer?
We shall see! This is actually a position I've ridden in the past (but with the saddle an additional 2cm back), so it's really not new. It's achieved by using one of those adjustable Look stems, but I was unhappy with how flexible that thing is so I replaced with with an upside-down MTB stem -35˚, 7cm), but could not really replicate the position. In any case, "a few hard laps" is all it will take as I won't ride this longer than 1km in competition.

This is just an experiment, so I may very well be going back to the more conservative position. If the weather is decent I'll take it to the track next Sunday and report.

Thanks guys.
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Old 03-03-14, 06:08 PM   #93
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Might want to at least move the elbow pads back a bit.
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Old 03-03-14, 06:21 PM   #94
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Might want to at least move the elbow pads back a bit.
I'm actually at the edge of hitting them with my knees during a start.
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Old 03-03-14, 07:41 PM   #95
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I'm actually at the edge of hitting them with my knees during a start.
I know a guy in Mexico that can take a couple of CM off your thigh bones. And if you have any spare organs...
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Old 03-03-14, 08:03 PM   #96
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This thread is getting dark...
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Old 03-03-14, 08:21 PM   #97
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As a rule I do whatever Racer Ex says...
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Old 03-03-14, 08:34 PM   #98
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Guys, I'm pretty into this whole track cycling thing, but I'm gonna stop short of elective surgery. Call me a poser.
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Old 03-03-14, 09:06 PM   #99
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Call me a poser.
I was gonna do that when you posted a vid of you on a trainer.
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Old 03-03-14, 09:21 PM   #100
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As a rule I do whatever Racer Ex says...
Word.
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