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  1. #51
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    I have never exceeded and rarely replicate the Max-Power numbers I logged in my first year of coached training... Despite every time getting significantly faster since then.

    1-sec power doesn't mean ****!

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    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Posting power numbers is pointless as they pertain to the individual racer and would need a lot of context explanation to understand. A max power number generated during a standing start is different from one generated at 140 rpm. However, power is a racers' currency to buy speed. The more currency you have the more speed you can buy. However, the cost of the speed is a function of many factors including CdA, friction, wind, Rho, and other factors.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  3. #53
    Junior Member Cantrackie's Avatar
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    All valid points, just to clarify the tests were "6 sec max power" with the same protocols. They also had similar drop off on the curves.
    Just posted because I found it interesting how over time the number hadn't changed much, especially interesting to me because the lack of training

  4. #54
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantrackie View Post
    All valid points, just to clarify the tests were "6 sec max power" with the same protocols. They also had similar drop off on the curves.
    Just posted because I found it interesting how over time the number hadn't changed much, especially interesting to me because the lack of training
    To be honest, those numbers are great.

  5. #55
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    The key to sprinting, IMO, is max 25 sec power, I use 30 second because it is built into my software, but they are all really 25 second efforts when I look at them. After that the ability to do so at high and changing RPMs as you have to race in one gear only. So as is often said max wattage will sound cool, but not equate to a fast 200m, flying lap or even standing start, and certainly not win your sprint. My max power is far less than most top sprinters, but I have added another ability to my tool chest, recovery. By riding more miles than most sprinters and doing more hill work, crits and endurance riding in general I will often turn my fastest 200 meter time during my last ride of a sprint tournament. Most sprinters tend to die out and not look forward to best 2 or 3 finals. I need a best 2 of 3 and will usually get better as the day gets longer.

    That said, a 2000 watt max 5 sec or even 1 second burst is going to be very useful if you have the rest of the package to support it. And I would agree that my sprint is there all year round too, what changes are the rest of the tools and my ability to recover and sprint again or sprint for longer than 5 seconds. When I came back to racing every year after my 2 to 6 month winter break, my top end is there on day one, my ability to get there and hold it however need to be trained through sprint work outs. So, IMO, the point of sprint workouts for some of us is to round out the rest of the package, not increase your max 1 or 5 second time. However there is training that will increase 1 and 5 second numbers for those of us under 2k watts, not sure if you are going to get much over that if you are already there, so you need to work on the rest.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    On a related note: I watched a masters guy (6'2", 220lbs, built like a linebacker) over the course of several years spend tens of thousands of dollars on the kind of bike gear that you see in magazines so that he could hang on for dear life on the back of CAT4 crits and get dropped on road races. He had several accomplished trackie friends say, "You should really try the track...seriously." For years, he resisted. Then one year he tried it and guess what? He rarely finished out of the top 3 of any race he contested. Even after the relatively moderate success, he still went back to road/crit riding for more back-of-the-pack suffering. I never understood that.
    I can very much relate to that. My body likely lends itself to being a pure sprinter and most of my results point towards that, but I have always wanted more. I have done more stage races than sprint tournaments, but I am often dead last, or bottom 5 at best in most stage races. However, there is something about that suffering and general idea of stage race that makes me want to do them. I also love the idea of hard races and part of me would feel much better winning a hard hilly and technical crit or road race than winning a track race, even though they do not suit me or my training style. I am not sure why, and lately I have tended towards track races as I have kids and the velodrome is close, but the allure of winning a road race or the GC of a stage race is still in my head while out on my training rides.

  7. #57
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantrackie View Post
    All valid points, just to clarify the tests were "6 sec max power" with the same protocols. They also had similar drop off on the curves.
    Just posted because I found it interesting how over time the number hadn't changed much, especially interesting to me because the lack of training
    BTW, your power is just sick, ridiculous and amazing. And you can buy a lot of speed for that amount of power. When I did standing start clinics with the Brits, they were all about focus and commitment to the start. Max power is very much mental as it is physical. You may have had an amazing day years back and or a not so hot mental day lately.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  8. #58
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantrackie View Post
    tests were "6 sec max power" with the same protocols.
    so 2100w for 6sec? assuming you are 200lbs that puts you off the charts

  9. #59
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    so 2100w for 6sec? assuming you are 200lbs that puts you off the charts
    We will have to call him Sir Cantrackie.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  10. #60
    Junior Member Cantrackie's Avatar
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    Quinn,
    it is a 6 sec peak power test, first 2 seconds are peak then drop off. Plain and simple max power.

    test
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    so 2100w for 6sec? assuming you are 200lbs that puts you off the charts

  11. #61
    Junior Member Cantrackie's Avatar
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    that's a lot better than what I'm usually called.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    We will have to call him Sir Cantrackie.

  12. #62
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Does anyone have a good guide and the spreadsheet for calibrating SRM Cranks?
    If you didn't get this, let me know. I built one out.

  13. #63
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    Does anyone have average cadence figures for endurance races? Would like to know what other people regularly output to see if this is something I need to particularly work on or not. Thanks in advance.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by flip.flop View Post
    Does anyone have average cadence figures for endurance races? Would like to know what other people regularly output to see if this is something I need to particularly work on or not. Thanks in advance.
    I target 105 with gear choice - give or take - but that is me and I do it so I can keep a cadence of closer to 90 for when the race slows down.. 88 for slower races and 94 for the fastest races. More important than average cadence in an endurance race is how jumpy is the race. in a lower category or a slow points race, it pays off to have a little gear, in a point a lap or typically even paced race it can pay off to have a bigger gear. If you want to get in a break and keep the pace up, go big, if you want to stay back and jump a lot go low.

    Edit: 88 to 94 is talking gear inches for the races.
    Last edited by jmikami; 04-06-14 at 01:43 PM.

  15. #65
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    If you didn't get this, let me know. I built one out.
    I found one. Thanks!

  16. #66
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flip.flop View Post
    Does anyone have average cadence figures for endurance races? Would like to know what other people regularly output to see if this is something I need to particularly work on or not. Thanks in advance.
    How tall is a tree?

    if I ride 105 RPM average it means I rode 105 RPM average. It doesn't mean that's my most effective cadence, or your most effective cadence. It might have been the race that dictated that number, or my choice of gearing for that particular day.

    The better question is "should I work on my maximum effective cadence?"

    And there is no "best" MEC, it varies individually.

    If you need to ride a small gear to handle the surges, and find yourself undergeared in the sprints, that answer is most likely "yes", though it may be that you need to work on lower RPM force generation as well.

  17. #67
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    Thanks both who answered.

    Racer ex, I see your point(s), and wasn't looking for a best anything, more like some data to compare to. When you say effective, I would understand you mean effective in a race - I was trying to understand what other people find effective to get a feel for where my data lies.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantrackie View Post
    All valid points, just to clarify the tests were "6 sec max power" with the same protocols. They also had similar drop off on the curves.
    Just posted because I found it interesting how over time the number hadn't changed much, especially interesting to me because the lack of training
    To bring in the wisdom of C&W songs - "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was".
    I have found training is more for repeated efforts and sustained work, the single shorter efforts can even be better with minimal training. So a single sprint, or short scratch race is ok, a points race will probably hurt.

  19. #69
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    How tall is a tree?
    Usually about 45-50.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  20. #70
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Maybe we should steer this thread back over to power analysis??

  21. #71
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Maybe we should steer this thread back over to power analysis??
    Good point.

    I've moved that conversation to the questions thread: Ask your small, random, track-related questions here Thread

  22. #72
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    I'll get us back on course-

    the Coggin Cycling Category by W/Kg is not a good metric for me- and despite having a respectable kilo- it puts me squarely in cat-5 for 1-min power...

    Is W/Kg totally useless for track?

    thinking about this because after losing 20lbs- I set a 5-sec W/kg PR at my first track session of the year.. Where I never switched out of warm-up gear (81").. (It was a beginner intro session I helped with)

  23. #73
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    I'll get us back on course-

    the Coggin Cycling Category by W/Kg is not a good metric for me- and despite having a respectable kilo- it puts me squarely in cat-5 for 1-min power...

    Is W/Kg totally useless for track?

    thinking about this because after losing 20lbs- I set a 5-sec W/kg PR at my first track session of the year.. Where I never switched out of warm-up gear (81").. (It was a beginner intro session I helped with)
    Yeah, that W/Kg chart can be misleading just like a squat standards chart: "If you weigh x a good squat will be y." There was one floating around that Rippetoe used then denounced.

    I think Coggan's W/Kg chart was a fun thing to do with all of the data that he had. But, it's not as useful as one might think. Just like BMI standards based on height vs weight. In short, it's bad statistics.

    So, any conclusions drawn from it are all houses built on sand.

    As you know, you can manipulate your max power by using lower-than-race gears. Also, spikes of power can skew the averages greatly.

    Instead of the "2,000W Club" being a thing, there should be "40mph/65kph Club" and "45mph/70kph Club"...that would be more telling.
    Last edited by carleton; 04-14-14 at 04:38 PM.

  24. #74
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I did the 500 meter, 4K team pursuit and 2K individual pursuit on Sunday at the LAVRA TT at Velo Sports Center in Carson, CA - 250 meter indoor wooden track 45 degrees of banking.

    Here is the power profile for the 2K. I included the L/R balance (Vector Power Meter) that appear as dots in the individual pursuit.



    Here is the 4k team pursuit.



    Great day of racing.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #75
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Nice Hermes!!
    Is that initial drop in power on the 2K your transition to seated/aero position?

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