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-   -   Track Racing by the Numbers (http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/939334-track-racing-numbers.html)

carleton 03-21-14 11:03 AM

Track Racing by the Numbers
 
Got question or answers about track training/racing data? Be it speed, cadence, power, heart rate, stopwatch splits...

carleton 03-21-14 11:04 AM

Does anyone have a good guide and the spreadsheet for calibrating SRM Cranks?

slindell 03-21-14 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carleton (Post 16598545)
Does anyone have a good guide and the spreadsheet for calibrating SRM Cranks?

Check the Wattage google group. There are the original instructions there + links to new fangled phone apps for doing all the calculations.

carleton 03-21-14 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slindell (Post 16598683)
Check the Wattage google group. There are the original instructions there + links to new fangled phone apps for doing all the calculations.

Thanks!

gtrob 03-22-14 06:00 PM

Does anyone have power data they could share on a 1000m run? Say around 1.10 indoor. I realize this is somewhat dependent on weight/cD Also what gearing is usually suggested?

JMR 03-23-14 11:32 PM

I can share some power data with you, but it's all training data as my powertap/Quarq is on training wheels/road bikes... When I race a full kilo it's on my disc.

What do you wanna know? :)

JMR

Baby Puke 03-23-14 11:49 PM

I've done that time on 94, 96, and 97. I know it's possible on much smaller, and I've seen it done on 88.

GhostSS 03-24-14 12:00 AM

Any apples to apples comparative data on male vs female track times and speeds? Female Kilo TT times or male 500m TT times, etc.

carleton 03-24-14 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostSS (Post 16605348)
Any apples to apples comparative data on male vs female track times and speeds? Female Kilo TT times or male 500m TT times, etc.

The 500M used to be an Elite men's event, but no more. Female Kilos are even more rare.

So, the best you can hope for now is taking a 500M split of a Kilo from a World Cup or World Championship event. But, You must assume that the men would be slightly faster than their 500M split being that they would set their specifically for it.

The only true apples to apples comparison would be the Flying 200M which both men and women do alike.

Tissot Timing - Results - CYCLING TRACK

I wish someone would explain to me why men and women compete at different distances. I never understood that.

Velocirapture 03-24-14 02:10 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I dont have kilo data for women, but this might cover a bit of what you are looking for, GhostSS. Some of the data are from longer-distance splits. Inbox me if you'd like more info on this

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=370675

Velocirapture 03-24-14 03:39 AM

Anyone notice that the starter of this thread is the same person who had "You can't kilo with a slide-rule" as a signature? :lol:

Quinn8it 03-24-14 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtrob (Post 16602056)
Does anyone have power data they could share on a 1000m run? Say around 1.10 indoor. I realize this is somewhat dependent on weight/cD Also what gearing is usually suggested?

Ive got power data on a 1:09.15 Kilo i rode last November…. id rather forget about that one :(…. but- what do you want to know?

as for gearing.. i forget what that effort was- i think 49X14/94"
I've done low 1:08 in a 92" and mid 1:07 in a 94"… 94" is about right for me..

carleton 03-24-14 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtrob (Post 16602056)
Does anyone have power data they could share on a 1000m run? Say around 1.10 indoor. I realize this is somewhat dependent on weight/cD Also what gearing is usually suggested?

Back in 2009 or so, The SRM software used to come with a sample file already installed. It was a kilo effort. I'll see if I can find it.

It was a World Cup level kilo (for 2009), so faster than 1:10. Maybe 1:03? Still interested?

carleton 03-24-14 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocirapture (Post 16605466)
Anyone notice that the starter of this thread is the same person who had "You can't kilo with a slide-rule" as a signature? :lol:

:D

Baby Puke wrote that years ago and I quoted him.

The post was addressing people (like me) who would postulate about what gear to run and what cadence and blah, blah, blah...to make the best kilo. Baby Puke's words were a spin on the old adage that, “One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions.” by Wernher von Braun

Hermes 03-24-14 12:03 PM

Here is a paper by the two Australians on track cycling. It is on the Hellyer Ridethetrack website along with other interesting training info. It discusses all the races including the kilo including a power profile and cadence information.

carleton 03-24-14 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermes (Post 16606721)
Here is a paper by the two Australians on track cycling. It is on the Hellyer Ridethetrack website along with other interesting training info. It discusses all the races including the kilo including a power profile and cadence information.

That's a great report.

My only objection is their assertion that the Flying 200M is an event that lasts only 10-11 seconds. A significant portion of the work put into the flying 200 happens before the 200M start line, long before the timed 10-11s that they mention. They even mention that the peak power during one 200M effort was 1,020W, but the graph shows that the rider was over 1200W during the windup. There is no way that woman could have ridden a 11.x flying 200M without hitting 1,200W during the windup.

So, basically, there are aerobic and anaerobic parts to this event. It is not as purely anaerobic as Man 1 of the Olympic Sprint. The flying 200M is an event where the last 10 - 11 seconds is recorded for time.

Quinn8it 03-24-14 02:18 PM

Totally agree with Carleton.
I gauge my flying 200m capacity/progress on 25sec power. At a Track like ADT, where the nature of the wind-up makes it more taxing- it's really longer..

Quick math between my kilo file and the one linked to above- looks like mine is basically in scale with that.. Ie: my time was 10% slower and numbers were 10% lower.. Ish!
so that's a good reference IMHO

carleton 03-24-14 02:30 PM

It's interesting to note the increased height of the pursuit specialists.

Without getting into the science of it all (because I don't understand it), studies have shown that riders with longer legs are predisposed to being better pursuiters. Something to do with levers, magnets, and aliens or something.

Anecdotally, I watched a tall lanky girl who was a general cyclist (commute by bike, weekend road rides, cat 5 crits, occasional track races) ride 2" off of the DLV 2K track record the first time she tried it...using drop bars.

She was slim and fit, but basically untrained.

I've always believed that success starts with recognizing where your body is predisposed. You can't coach genetics or talent into a person.

gtrob 03-26-14 07:06 PM

I would consider myself and another guy my height (6'4) to be the strongest pursuit riders at our track. If only I could find 2 more and we could take a run at 2015 pan am games in TP, since we (canada) don't even have a men's team AT ALL right now. Not sure exactly the reason, but TT guys are usually tall, looks at Fabian hes like 12 feet tall.


Regarding the kilo, I was curious on peak and average power, and what the drop looks like (ie what does lap 2 look like vs lap 4). From the sounds there isn't much pacing to it and its just all out.

What do you guys think of the accuracy of http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...Kilo_Page.html ? I plugged a few numbers in and it looks like a 1:10 can be done with an average power of 600w and a peak of around 1300. Peak power is interesting though as you obviously can't reach peak power until you get some RPM, so is it safe to assume you don't hit the same peak power in a kilo as you would in say a rolling sprint?

Another thing I noticed is if you play with the weight how little difference it makes, I thought on a standing start kilo it would be more. For example 10lbs less weight cut the same time as 5 watts. On a 600w effort 5w is nothing, but to drop 10lbs without effecting power is pretty tough for most people.

I really need to get a PM for the track, Ive had one for the road for a while and become dependent on the data I think!

carleton 03-26-14 08:30 PM

Everyone thought the Kilo was just all out...till Phinney did it.

This is from 2009 World Track Championships where Phinny took 2nd in the Kilo:

Distance - Time - Rank up to that point
Lap 1: 19.611"
125m - 12.227" - 26th
250m - 19.611" - 25th

Lap 2: 13.750"
375m - 26.547" - 23rd
500m - 33.361" - 22nd

Lap 3: 13.763"
625m - 40.179" - 17th
750m - 47.124" - 10th

Lap 4: 14.487"
875m - 54.272" - 8th
1000m - 1:01.611" - 2nd

Basically, he was relatively weak on the start but when others faded and wobbled home in the last lap, he was faster than everyone else. Phinney had the fastest 500-750 split and 750-1000 split.

Splits:
http://www.tissottiming.com/File/Dow...FFFFFFFFFFFF00
http://www.tissottiming.com/File/Dow...FFFFFFFFFFFF00

gtrob 03-26-14 09:03 PM

It would take a lot of practice to balance that effort and make sure you don't leave anything on the last lap. We really don't do kilo training/racing at my track outside of once-per-year provincial champ, which only 2 guys showed up for in the elites, but am going to try and train with a coach privately over the summer.

jmikami 03-27-14 12:02 AM

I find these numbers very interesting. I am planning to do a number of kilo training sessions at the track with my new power meter and one of the key things I am planning to test is how my times and RPE play out with sub 1000 watt starts vs all out. I am a firm believer that all out is just a safe and simple way to do a kilo that ensures you leave nothing on the track, but pacing is critical to a great kilo since we all know that none/few of us can hold our max power for 200 meters, much less a full kilo. I also think there is something to using your all your energy stores and that if you don't max out you don't get to use a key energy system as efficiently, but might get to leverage other systems more efficiently. Playing with numbers gives me something to do while I relax as well as figuring out what works best for my body type.

I look forward to seeing if anyone shares more data with varied techniques. Would be interesting to see if people are able to pace out a kilo to achieve time gains. Also it will be interesting to see if playing with the peak data affects power curves more than times. likely at the end of the day I will end up with the same time, but a different curve. Lucky for me I find one minute intervals a great way to train for points races so I don't mind filling a day with multiple efforts.

carleton 03-27-14 12:15 AM

To clarify, "max" power, means all that is available in your legs. "Pacing" refers to not giving all you got for a given period.

There are at least 2 ways to approach the kilo:
1) Max Power, meaning all you got throughout the entire event. Meaning if you have 1700W at the start you give 1700W, and if all you have is 500W a the mid-point, you press with all 500W. Keep pressing all you got till it's over.

2) Pace it, meaning start with a sub-max start and ride at some sub-max percentage till (let's say) 500M, then you give max power (all you got) and finish exhausted.


Both ways leave nothing on the table. Pursuiters are generally taught to empty their tanks at the end of their efforts. I'm not a pursuiter, maybe some can chime-in. But, being that Phinney is a world-class pursuiter on the track and road, maybe that was his approach. Or maybe his muscle fiber type just doesn't allow for an explosive start, but he's so fatigue resistant that he can give 100% a the beginning, middle, and end. And the end is where is made up all that ground. Big gear? Huge gear? Dude was in TWENTY SECOND PLACE half-way in and finished second.

carleton 03-27-14 12:22 AM

[video=youtube;zXHIgNj5DVw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHIgNj5DVw[/video]

JMR 03-27-14 01:00 AM

Wow... his dad (I assume), is a very animated talker!

JMR


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