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  1. #26
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I get more power in the final 25" of a road sprint than I do from a 200m on the track - sucks for me. If I understand you are the opposite, and are getting more power on the track. This is what I want to achieve. I just can't get that same 25 second power on the track.


    I race my final 500 meters on the road in one gear, it is just huge. Last race I shifted into my 11 at around 500-600 meters to go, so it is not the shifting, but more the massive gear difference. I understand the getting it up to speed part, it is more the why can't I produce the same power at 90 and 120 RPM. The 120 RPM has a better power multiplier, but as I crest 105/110 RPM my power dips instead of increases. I want to work on this.


    I was speaking of road studies - just figured since I have a rough track maybe it would be good to try it ... it didn't work IMO.
    As a coach, I really think it's unhealthy to think, "I can do ___ on the road. I should be able to do the same or better on the track."

    I think you should just ask, "How do I improve my tack sprint?" As a blank slate with no preconceptions.

    Regarding tire pressure: Remember that every 100M or so, you add extra G-forces to the tires. Your weight is multiplied by a factor of your speed. I've read that Derny Racers (who ride at crazy speeds for a long time) wear double chamois to deal with the forces creating saddle sores.

    There is an optimal pressure range for a given weight of a rider. Don't forget to factor in added weight made by the turns.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    11.0" flying 200m takes 11.0 W/Kg for 25 seconds
    I am well over that on the road, but still getting use to my stages on the track so no good numbers there. But w/kg don't matter for the track it is watts/aero, and mostly just watts. There is something about getting my fat ass up to speed, but I don't think w/kg has much of an impact on 200 meter times. But if we start talking numbers things might get derailed to who can do what and is that possible if you are not a pro.

    I would love to have your ability to translate raw power to the track however. How much of your track work do you do over 100 RPM? As I mentioned 99% of my training is less than 100RPM. Well at least below 110RPM as around 100 RPM is my sweet spot.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    As a coach, I really think it's unhealthy to think, "I can do ___ on the road. I should be able to do the same or better on the track."

    I think you should just ask, "How do I improve my tack sprint?" As a blank slate with no preconceptions.
    That is my goal question in a round about manner, but I disagree that you should ask it with no preconceptions. By throwing up examples of where I have noticed that I am good vs bad and trying to translate the differences between what I am doing and where I need to go. A compass has zero value if you only know where you are going, you need to have a starting point. I understand the thought however and a focus of winning on the road and losing on the track is not healthy.

  4. #29
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    As Craig Colduck said, road sprinting feels hard, but is still sub-maximal. Meaning that you aren't tapping 100% of the available energy.

    One of the keys to track sprinting is learning how to activate close to 100% of the muscle fibers...and stay upright on the bike. There is a psychological component to this as well as technique. This is more apparent on a standing start, but a flying 200M can be considered "a rolling standing start."

    What speeds can you touch from a standing start? Ideally, your f200m max speed will be slightly higher. It goes without saying that your f200m time is directly related to the max speed that you can attain on the track.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    jmikami - I've seen you sprint - you sprint like a roadie.

    Maybe if you sprinted like a trackie you'd get better results.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    As Craig Colduck said, road sprinting feels hard, but is still sub-maximal. Meaning that you aren't tapping 100% of the available energy.
    Maybe a pro road sprint after a 6 hour ride. But riding protected in a flat 60 to 90 minute flat circuit race is the perfect warmup for a maximal effort sprint. And if my road sprints are sub-maximal then why is my track sprint soo slow in comparison. This is the reverse of my issue and part of the reason my lack of track speed doesn't pass my smell test. I have more power on the road at the end of race than I have ever had in a 200 meter effort. Now a tight crit or a long or hilly road race will change that, but a flat short circuit race will allow for a maximal effort, IMO.

    That said my numerical analysis of my track work is limited. Most is by 200 meter times and comparison to peers and "feel" which is not scientific, but with 25 years of experience, I know enough to know something is up. I just got a stages power meter and once the weather stays over 75 for long enough I will be able to get out there and figure out the exact power differences between the efforts and learn more about the reasons or at least details behind my issue.

    For now, I just want to find a way to translate existing road speed at low RPM to track speed at high RPM. With the understanding that I have 25 years of off and on experience in both, and have likely raced each surface close to the same number of times.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    jmikami - I've seen you sprint - you sprint like a roadie.

    Maybe if you sprinted like a trackie you'd get better results.
    That is what I am trying to fix ... and before any of the other trackies can figure out how to stop me. I am hoping for a fun and eventful season with many stories of the ones that got away and the ones I stole from faster racers.

  8. #33
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Power is a red herring.

    Power numbers are best used in relative analysis. Road vs Road and Track vs Track for the same rider in same situations.
    Last edited by carleton; 05-08-14 at 01:42 PM.

  9. #34
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    That is what I am trying to fix ... and before any of the other trackies can figure out how to stop me. I am hoping for a fun and eventful season with many stories of the ones that got away and the ones I stole from faster racers.
    What's your crank length? Ever consider going to 165mm? I tried 172.5 for a bit a few years ago and it just never seemed right to me. I could never get my rpms up.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  10. #35
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    That is what I am trying to fix ... and before any of the other trackies can figure out how to stop me. I am hoping for a fun and eventful season with many stories of the ones that got away and the ones I stole from faster racers.
    Are you willing to adopt a new technique for sprinting?

    Are you willing to move (or in this case, not move) the bike like this?:


  11. #36
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    I ride a 170 for everything, all my bikes have 170 cranks and never change. I tried going 165 sprints, 170 enduro and 172.5 for TT; but I did not see anything different about any of it. Too much work for no gain, and just leaving it the same might actually be better.

    As for bike movement, I don't think it is my biggest issue. As for new techniques, I am game for anything that doesn't put me in a bad spot for this season. I am going to talk to a coach next week and I am trying to do as much self analysis as possible this week so that we have plenty to talk about.

    As for power being a red herring ... it can be. Hence my biggest issue is why I have success on the road more than the track, specifically as it relates to top end speed. And how to move the needle on the track to a better place given my existing attributes. I would like to make life hard for riders like Quinn.
    Last edited by jmikami; 05-08-14 at 02:03 PM.

  12. #37
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    Maybe a pro road sprint after a 6 hour ride. But riding protected in a flat 60 to 90 minute flat circuit race is the perfect warmup for a maximal effort sprint.
    No. It is not. Sorry.

    This is like saying jogging for 60 minutes is the perfect warmup for an attempt at a personal best squat.

    A muscle activating, but non-fatiguing warmup followed by a 15 minute rest is the perfect warmup for a maximal effort sprint.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Jmikami- I wasn't trying to whip out my big number- that's just a general guideline that is amusing because it's 11=11...
    Take it for what it's worth.. Basically nothing

    yes- I train at high cadence.. I race and train in what most people consider very small gears..

    The crits I've been doing are in an 88" single speed..
    Average cadence 90-95rpm for 40min.. 150rpm max..

  14. #39
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I've seen roadies come to the track and remark about how much rest trackies (especially sprinters) take.

    Road racing and track sprinting, albeit both done on bicycles, are VERY different activities.

    I really think you should not bring the preconceptions. You will simply have to spend time and energy unlearning...or you can be a blank slate and start leaning from scratch now.

    If you don't need 10 minutes to recover after an effort, then it was not a maximal effort. It was sub-max.

    If you do not rest 10 minutes after your last hard effort before doing the next (warmup and event efforts) the latter will not be a maximal effort. You can strain really hard, ant it will feel like you are giving 100%. You are...but it's 100% of muscles that are not 100% recovered. What if you gave 100% from muscles that were 100% recovered?
    Last edited by carleton; 05-08-14 at 02:28 PM.

  15. #40
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I really want to focus on this because I think this is key:

    riding protected in a flat 60 to 90 minute flat circuit race is the perfect warmup for a maximal effort sprint.
    This is "roadie thinking".

    jmikami,

    You are a strong guy. I think you can squat well over 300lbs.

    What if I said that I'd give you $100 for every rep you could properly squat 275lbs (as a nice round number)?

    How would you approach that task?

    Would you squat light weights (or just body weight) for 60-90 minutes right before squatting the 275lbs?

    Or would you do a short series of progressive warmup sets, rest for a few minutes, then do the 275lbs for the cash?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    If you don't need 10 minutes to recover after an effort, then it was not a maximal effort. It was sub-max.

    If you do not rest 10 minutes after your last hard effort before doing the next (warmup and event efforts) the latter will not be a maximal effort.
    I 100% agree with this. 5 minutes is not enough, 10 min is on the low side and 15 minutes is ideal. I just think that it is possible to rest in the middle of a flat road race, and if we disagree here that is fine. Granted I am still keeping my HR over 150 beats/min; and there are a couple of minor very sub-max jumps in the leadout, but that is how I have trained myself to rest so for me it gives me the best chance to reach top speed. I also very much understand the difference between roadies and trackies, I am more trackie than roadie by most accounts. But this is not the issue I was getting at, I am just concerned over my lack of top end speed on the track and trying to account for all the reasons that could cause this so that I can work on it.

    Although this might be getting at another issue I have been thinking about. I am more of a "diesel" engine and I need to be warm and often have better speed near the end of the day. It is very likely that I am just not at full warmup as soon as others and that my 200s, which are always first up for the day, need more prep or something different to get that max speed. I often just feel uncomfortable during a 200 meter effort and trying to pay too much attention to track position. During a road sprint I am thinking about one thing ... get to the line.

  17. #42
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Well Carleton..

    first id call Dolan and order one of those closeout DF3's...

    then id warmup like you said..

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I really want to focus on this because I think this is key:



    This is "roadie thinking".

    jmikami,

    You are a strong guy. I think you can squat well over 300lbs.

    What if I said that I'd give you $100 for every rep you could properly squat 275lbs (as a nice round number)?

    How would you approach that task?

    Would you squat light weights (or just body weight) for 60-90 minutes right before squatting the 275lbs?

    Or would you do a short series of progressive warmup sets, rest for a few minutes, then do the 275lbs for the cash?
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Well Carleton..

    first id call Dolan and order one of those closeout DF3's...

    then id warmup like you said..
    I am enduro roadie and can go all day I am buying us all DF3's with Carleton's money.

    It has been over 20 years since I have touched a weight, so I have no clue. I think weights to sprinting is about as far away as you can get however so not on point.

    Not only that, but if I am racing Quinn or the shark at nats this year it will be at Marymoor ... which I consider more of a crit course than a real track. So my road speed might not be useless that week. I need to contact Mansker and see if he can get me an 11 cog so I can forget this whole leg speed thing and just ride a sub 11 and say catch me if you can.

  19. #44
    Senior Member Impreza_aL's Avatar
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    i wanted to be a sprinter once then i realized how much they don't ride their bike
    fried chicken and waffles.

  20. #45
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
    i wanted to be a sprinter once then i realized how much they don't ride their bike
    You hear me whine all the time, is what you mean.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    first id call Dolan and order one of those closeout DF3's...
    Unless you are a very short person these don't exist anymore... At least not posted on their site.
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  22. #47
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
    Unless you are a very short person these don't exist anymore... At least not posted on their site.
    Yeh- I know.. i was watching them a month or two ago.. honestly i would of pulled the trigger but i couldn't get past the color.. hated the white..

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    Damn. Thought you may have known about an extra stash that wasn't listed on the site...
    http://climbinglama.blogspot.com.au

  24. #49
    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I 100% agree with this. 5 minutes is not enough, 10 min is on the low side and 15 minutes is ideal. I just think that it is possible to rest in the middle of a flat road race, and if we disagree here that is fine. Granted I am still keeping my HR over 150 beats/min; and there are a couple of minor very sub-max jumps in the leadout, but that is how I have trained myself to rest so for me it gives me the best chance to reach top speed.
    I'd like to propose that perhaps that is how you have trained yourself to race. You have probably lifted your lactate threshold nice and high, that allows you to keep high intensity for long, and still have enough in the tank for a few kicks. That is not rest, but small recoveries in the bunch, which probably feel like a 'rest' at the time. You are also using very different energy systems to what you would in a track sprint.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I also very much understand the difference between roadies and trackies, I am more trackie than roadie by most accounts. But this is not the issue I was getting at, I am just concerned over my lack of top end speed on the track and trying to account for all the reasons that could cause this so that I can work on it.
    One of the great things about putting a question to a group, is that the diversity of people brings a diversity of perspective. With all due respect, (and i certainly agree that there is benefit in using our existing experience and understanding when approaching a 'problem') there is also a lot of benefit in sometimes putting preconceptions to one side, and looking at things from a completely new and fresh perspective. Perhaps one of the answer that are 'not what you were getting at', is the one that will solve your dilemma of your top end speed?? You know your body well, and confidence in your sprint technique and rest technique and all that, are good, as they have worked for you. Maybe, though, they have also been only able to take you so far? its hard work starting again with a whole new approach at something, but give that you have been racing for years and train very hard, its possibly less likely to be a small tweak like legspeed, that will make a major difference. it very likely would still make a difference, but the incremental kind

    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    Although this might be getting at another issue I have been thinking about. I am more of a "diesel" engine and I need to be warm and often have better speed near the end of the day. It is very likely that I am just not at full warmup as soon as others and that my 200s, which are always first up for the day, need more prep or something different to get that max speed. I often just feel uncomfortable during a 200 meter effort and trying to pay too much attention to track position. During a road sprint I am thinking about one thing ... get to the line.
    Sounds like you may have isolated your own answer here, to me . what kind of warm up do you do?
    And on a different tack, have you played with bigger gears and a faster wind up?
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

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    Thanks for all the thoughts, I am pretty sure I am listening and not just trying to nay say the things I don't agree with or that I think don't relate. I do need to spend more time at the track doing high speed seated efforts into corner 3/4 and play with my warmup and rest more on the track. I just don't have enough track training time doing sprint days. I am certainly not a track sprinter when it comes to training, much more track enduro/crit rider when it comes to training with 95% of my training on the road even though all my A races are track and my races break out 50/50. I think will increase my tire pressure to 150/160 as well as play around with some gears during a track sprint day this month.

    I do find it odd that some people think road sprinters don't use the same exact energy systems and do maximal sprints just because they are doing it with 60+ minutes of constant movement and not sitting on their arse for 15 minutes before the effort. Maximal efforts use ATP and are maximal if the ATP system is rested, which at 200 watts for a rider who has a decent aerobic engine is rested, even with a small burn buildup during the leadout (which, IMO does not negate the maximal aspect). Being on a track bike has no say in which energy system you use, you sprint full out you are maximal, and I understand the difference between a submax prime/point sprint and a max final sprint - I do them both all the time. I would even say a good enduro has the ability to recover from a maximal sprint at a high enough pace to rejoin the group and keep going afterwards - I am working towards that goal, not there yet. The recovery will be slow and 15 minutes is not enough to recover your system at speed, but it will occur, and you can recover and go again.

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