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  1. #51
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I do find it odd that some people think road sprinters don't use the same exact energy systems and do maximal sprints just because they are doing it with 60+ minutes of constant movement and not sitting on their arse for 15 minutes before the effort. Maximal efforts use ATP and are maximal if the ATP system is rested, which at 200 watts for a rider who has a decent aerobic engine is rested, even with a small burn buildup during the leadout (which, IMO does not negate the maximal aspect). Being on a track bike has no say in which energy system you use, you sprint full out you are maximal, and I understand the difference between a submax prime/point sprint and a max final sprint - I do them both all the time. I would even say a good enduro has the ability to recover from a maximal sprint at a high enough pace to rejoin the group and keep going afterwards - I am working towards that goal, not there yet. The recovery will be slow and 15 minutes is not enough to recover your system at speed, but it will occur, and you can recover and go again.
    I am actually in nearly complete agreement with you on this.
    Sprinting on the Road is not as different as people are saying.

    this is the first year I've done much crit racing in a while and since it is essentially a fitness supplement to my track program i decided to build a bike that more closely resembled my track bike. so- Single Speed drive train, 165mm cranks, 36cm Track Bars.. for me- road drivetrains always felt inefficient, likely due to my inexperience with them- and inability to settle on my optimum gearing during the wind-up.. I think aligning my bikes has allowed me to get road numbers closer to track.. but that could just be a personal thing.

    that said- i do never see max power numbers in crits that i see in a track 200m- generally 20-25% lower.. i assume thats a factor of the jump occurring at higher speeds.. not sure.. also 25" power, which i believe is the determining metric for 200m, is lower as well.. my take is the shielded wind up, higher jumping speed leaves an effort that is mostly sustained speed maintenance.. I am also not seeing my highest maximal power in moto paced jump drills that i do on the track

    as for the ATP- the fact that it stays essentially fresh through sustained longer efforts is exactly why i do flying 100/200 efforts at the end of the day, after kilo efforts. in my experience its the lactic system that takes the hit during the course of training- that though could lead to decreased speed maintenance in road sprints..

  2. #52
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quinn8it, what did you do for a rear hub on your crit single speed? The idea of a single speed crit frame is intriguing.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  3. #53
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    image.jpg
    I used an old road frame with vertical dropouts-
    And chose to use a chain tensioner and a spaced out road hub. Cheap and easy, and it allows me to swap wheels with my road bike.
    This also avoids the issue all the guys have with track frames/wheels, which is that Freewheel cogs don't go smaller than 16t...

    I'm also able to use a big range of Ring/cog combos without having to worry about chain length..

  4. #54
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    What if I said that I'd give you $100 for every rep you could properly squat 275lbs (as a nice round number)?

    How would you approach that task?

    Would you squat light weights (or just body weight) for 60-90 minutes right before squatting the 275lbs?

    Or would you do a short series of progressive warmup sets, rest for a few minutes, then do the 275lbs for the cash?
    jmikami, you never answered those questions.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    jmikami, you never answered those questions.
    I thought i did with a joke, then a comment that I have not lifted in 20 years so no clue and finally that to me it was off point to compare lifting either a warmup or near max to riding at 150 HR and 200 watts before a sprint so there is no point. In addition I mentioned we can just agree to disagree that my road sprint is max or submax as I don't think that is my issue.

    However making your point just makes my situation all the more curious. Besides saying I shouldn't compare road to track, you are basically saying I should be faster on the track as that is maximal where the road is submax and therefor would be slower. I disagree with the comparison of road to track that you make in general, but I want to figure out why I can't be more like Quinn and be faster on the track than the road. To which I think most here have helped me narrow down some issues I mentioned above and the reason why it is likely not just cadence causing my issue, although I think that is a big part.

    I will be talking with a coach in the next week or so and pleading my case with him, in part using what I already knew and using what you all helped me deduce to figure out the best way to beat the sprinters ... or just leave them alone and focus on enduro this year. I am greedy and think I can do both, but I will let wiser heads sway me to ensure I come away with at least one good result instead of 6 or 7 mediocre results.

    I do enjoy the back and forth, so I am pretty sure I answered you.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Could be mostly a function of fast twitch recruitment.
    A 200m is basically a 25" hard effort with a maximal kick to get up to speed quickly and then speed maintenance.. The kick is well in excess of 50% more than the sustained power for the entire 25" effort.. In my experience..

  7. #57
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I thought i did with a joke, then a comment that I have not lifted in 20 years so no clue and finally that to me it was off point to compare lifting either a warmup or near max to riding at 150 HR and 200 watts before a sprint so there is no point. In addition I mentioned we can just agree to disagree that my road sprint is max or submax as I don't think that is my issue.

    However making your point just makes my situation all the more curious. Besides saying I shouldn't compare road to track, you are basically saying I should be faster on the track as that is maximal where the road is submax and therefor would be slower. I disagree with the comparison of road to track that you make in general, but I want to figure out why I can't be more like Quinn and be faster on the track than the road. To which I think most here have helped me narrow down some issues I mentioned above and the reason why it is likely not just cadence causing my issue, although I think that is a big part.

    I will be talking with a coach in the next week or so and pleading my case with him, in part using what I already knew and using what you all helped me deduce to figure out the best way to beat the sprinters ... or just leave them alone and focus on enduro this year. I am greedy and think I can do both, but I will let wiser heads sway me to ensure I come away with at least one good result instead of 6 or 7 mediocre results.

    I do enjoy the back and forth, so I am pretty sure I answered you.
    No, you didn't answer You wrote a lot about a lot. And you just did it again.

    Quinn answered.

    The windup to the flying 200M is where your speed is created. Those 10-15 powerful pedal stokes before the 200M line is where all of the magic happens. That is where you go from a so-so 30MPH to a blazing 40+ MPH. The following 200M is just holding on the speed that you've created. That's why your muscles should be 100% fully recharged.

    Yes, you can warmup for an hour or two beforehand. But you have to rest and recharge 100% before the windup and those 10-15 "Money" pedal strokes.

    In my humble opinion, you are comfortable being a road sprinter and you do well. You are sort of confused why you don't perform comparably well on the track even though you don't adjust your program.

    I've seen people take 0.5" off of their flying 200M between subsequent efforts based on advice.

    Get your phone and load the stopwatch app. Notice how very quickly 0.5" elapses. That should make it clear what's at stake. Any mistake, any deviation from optimal will cost you some time. Maybe swerving up over the red costs you 0.1". Maybe jumping too early or too late costs you 0.2". Standing too long may cost you 0.1". Choosing a different line may cost you 0.2". When you nail it...it's awesome.

    The flying 200M takes practice.
    Last edited by carleton; 05-09-14 at 01:28 PM.

  8. #58
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    I again completely agree with you that training is where I am missing it, and that I am going to make a plan to either work on it or ignore it. I also agree with your assessment that the little details can help, again a track specific issue. My issue is the simple drop in power I am seeing from road to track, and the fact that I have so much experience on the track, shouldn't I have already found those minor fixes. I haven't, so I need to suck it up and either work on it, or live with it.

    It is not the lack of program adjustment that confuses me, it is the raw drop in speed and power from road to track that confuses me. I don't see this as much with other riders who race both, most are more like Quinn and are faster on the track. Other roadies sure, I see it all the time, but I am not a roadie, and that is my puzzlement. My road power numbers for 20 to 25 secs are awesome as is my speed, when on form. My track power numbers so far pale, and my speed is off.

    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    But you have to rest and recharge 100% before the windup and those 10-15 "Money" pedal strokes.
    This is the only point we really disagree on I think and well it is what it is. To me the ATP system is pretty sturdy and is not affected by lesser efforts. Heck for me the additional efforts seem to improve my ATP system.

    Quinn, you mention your start kick is 50% more than your finish? This slightly different than mine. I have a 5 to 10 second top number that varies on the day in duration, followed by a slowly dropping number that ends at the line, but usually lasts for a total of right around 20 seconds if I time it right or a training session. I am pushing to get my ATP cycle to handle 25 seconds, but I am not there yet, 19-21 seconds is where I die today, 25 is my goal by nats. my top power in a 200m sprint effort is about 10-15% less than my peak wattage and then my second half of my sprint as I start to fade drops another 25% on average. That means my start sprint is 33% better than my finish depending on your denominator.

    When I go on the track, my numbers go all over the place and I just don't have enough data to figure it out yet, but it is much different and the speeds are less. I am looking forward to getting some data to help me figure out my issue beyond what I have heard here, as I do not think power numbers are a red herring.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Meant to say:
    my 1" power at the kick is 50% more than my 25" power for the entire effort...

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Meant to say:
    my 1" power at the kick is 50% more than my 25" power for the entire effort...
    Even with that I am not at 50%. I only hit 1" power numbers if I am going for a 5+ second sprint, even that is typically flat on my power meter with little to no spike and just a 5 second gently rounded curve. My 20-25 second efforts, aka road sprint/200m have a rounded 5 to 10 second peak with no real 1" peak, and the peak is at least 10-15% off my 5sec max, if not more like 20% off. then my next 10+ seconds are a downward line to how long did I go. But I always give up between 20 and 25 seconds on good efforts, and I always wonder if I should have tried to go one more second. I have plenty of efforts that don't make it to the 20 second mark as well if I am fatigued.

  11. #61
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    No Sprinter ever looked at his/her power meter and thought, "Hmmmm...I wonder if I should add more power or back-off the power?"

    All efforts are maximal. 100%.

    The vast majority of decisions are made based on Speed and Cadence vs Time.

    Some key indicators for Sprinters (for a given event or effort):
    - Max speed
    - Max Cadence
    - Instantaneous speed/cadence at key points.
    - Time
    - Split times
    - Average speed for a split
    - Average cadence for a split

    I bet if you and your coach analyzed your F100 and F200M files and noted the metrics listed above, they would shine more light on the issue than power will.

    Enduros and TT specialists will use power to be sure not to blow up prematurely.

    Just like sprinters don't use heart rate data (and enduros do) same applies here. Power and HR just explain what happened. No decisions are made because of power numbers that aren't better explained with speed or cadence vs time.

    Man, I'm a data nerd. I'm an IT guy that works with data for a living. I have speed, cadence, power files that go back to 2009. This is just my 2 cents
    Last edited by carleton; 05-09-14 at 02:27 PM.

  12. #62
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    That being said, power can be used as a secondary (or tertiary) indicator of strength or fitness. Just like numbers from the gym.

    Numbers are going up? That may be good.
    Numbers are going down? That may be bad.

    It's more of a status indicator than anything.

  13. #63
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    To be completely honest, the most useful part of having power data in a (speed, cadence, power) vs time chart is to indicate where the key markers are. Seriously.

    I look at the spikes and that tells me when and where I jumped during an effort or sprint and what speed and cadence I jumped from. I see the drop of power and know that was the finish line and I note my finishing speed and cadence. I look at where the power dropped off and I count back 12 seconds and I mark the speed and cadence where I started the final 200m.

    That is the extent to which I've used power for the most part.

    ...and to say that I clocked nearly 2,100W last week
    (2,100W plus $2 will buy me a cup of coffee)
    Last edited by carleton; 05-09-14 at 02:49 PM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    This is just my 2 cents
    When have you ever given just 2 cents

    I like power and I use power first, the rest second, works for me. Speed fails because of wind/surface/setup/road elevation etc, cadence fails because I suck there and am too lazy to fix it ... yet. Times fail, because I have no coach timing my sessions. Too many variables to accurately measure anything by with all that. Also I don't have enough track data to make any numbers there useful, so my power meter files from the road are all I have to analyze after the fact. And no I never look at my power meter during an effort and say too much, but I do look at my opponent and the distance needed to get to the line and have backed off the power many times to "pretend" to fail and get them in the wind earlier. I also use my HR to indicate how well I am handling my efforts and how my body responds to stimulus.

    I have come to the conclusion that my 2000 watt days will never return, although I will take my 30 second numbers to the bank any day. They just are not as sexy sounding as 2k, but I am a power guy and I should be able to solve my issues via power. I have ran into other coaches that don't use power, and they are really good and have athletes that beat me all the time, so I am sure both ways work.

    Maybe we disagree on more than one thing, but I think in general we both want to get to the line faster and are willing to work at it until we can.

  15. #65
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Yeh- I pretty much disagree with everything Carleton said up there...

    Stopwatch then Power...

  16. #66
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    I've got you all beat. I use the angle I make to the apron going around the corner as my performance indicator...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  17. #67
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    ...and to say that I clocked nearly 2,100W last week
    (2,100W plus $2 will buy me a cup of coffee)
    What did it buy you on the Clock?

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I've got you all beat. I use the angle I make to the apron going around the corner as my performance indicator...
    You are going to have to really fly at marymoor then. Angles are hard to come by on that track.

  19. #69
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I've got you all beat. I use the angle I make to the apron going around the corner as my performance indicator...
    Directly related to speed: Physics and the track banking | The Dick Lane Velodrome

    (As I know you know).

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    What did it buy you on the Clock?
    I did it on my cyclops trainer at home. I don't have a PM on my track bike anymore.

    BTW, I'm training for Track Nationals on the Moon where W/Kg don't matter. Just watts.

  20. #70
    Brown Bear, Sqrl Hunter Jaytron's Avatar
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    I don't think I'm anywhere near breaking 2kw.
    PedalRoom

    Hey I just met you,
    and this is crazy,
    but here's my Strava,
    follow me maybe.

  21. #71
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    Track Solarsystemics?
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  22. #72
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    I don't think I'm anywhere near breaking 2kw.
    Me either

  23. #73
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    I don't think I'm anywhere near breaking 2kw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    Me either
    And both of you can ride circles around me.

    That's my point about power being a red herring.

  24. #74
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    And both of you can ride circles around me.

    That's my point about power being a red herring.
    You only told us your 1" power.

    1" power is a tiny portion of the story, but still important.

    For Me- as a kilo rider, 65", 25", and 5" numbers are more valuable (in that order) but what happens as far as 1" power in a 25" flying 200m is a really good metric..

    By itself- 1" power is the equivalent of Thigh Circumference measurements... Impressive and sexy- but utterly meaningless..

  25. #75
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    You only told us your 1" power.

    1" power is a tiny portion of the story, but still important.

    For Me- as a kilo rider, 65", 25", and 5" numbers are more valuable (in that order) but what happens as far as 1" power in a 25" flying 200m is a really good metric..

    By itself- 1" power is the equivalent of Thigh Circumference measurements... Impressive and sexy- but utterly meaningless..
    This sounds to me that you are using power to measure your freshness, fitness, and strength.

    And as a Kilo rider, I'd imagine that cadence and speed data are even more valuable.

    For sprinting, power explains how you got what you got (freshness, fitness, and strength). Decisions are made based on speed and cadence data. For example, if your average cadence after you sit from your start is 10-20 RPM off your target, then you'd probably choose to gear down. If your cadences are too high, you might opt to gear up.

    For a flying 200M, your windup and jump-off points are set by speed and/or cadence. "Wind up to x-MPH or y-RPM then jump from there". No one says, "Press the pedals at 1500W to start your sprint."

    Common problems that are easily fixed are:
    - I was over-geared for my 200M/Sprint
    - I was under-geared. I spun out.
    - I jumped from too low of a speed. I should have come into it faster or used a smaller gear.
    - I came into it too fast and I had to sit too early. I should have used a bigger gear.

    No one says, "My power is too high. I need to change something."

    And if your power is too low, what do you change? Diet?
    Last edited by carleton; 05-09-14 at 06:13 PM.

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