carleton

I missed this.

So, please give me a problem scenario for a sprinter that can be solved by analyzing power that cannot be solved by analyzing speed and cadence data?

Quinn8it

Ill say it again…
Speed and Cadence basically don't factor for me at all…

honestly i use 2 gears for almost all of my real efforts.. so the whole idea of the constant search for the perfect gear is not my thing.. i can pick my gear based on my suspected time and be good..
yes- i have an idea of what cadences work best for me- mostly just from knowing what gears feel best at what track and what speeds my time translate to… but my conclusions are not new stuff.. pretty standard ranges.

The cadence range stuff (10-20rpm off target cadence) and your "common problems" all seem like very beginner issues- honestly anyone at the point of having a power meter on their track bike should be pretty much past making those types of mistakes.. and most of them could be easily diagnosed by eye- and maybe a stopwatch.

where Power comes into my training is this:
i want to be able to do a maximal effort- whether it be during a race or a training session and know my time and power data for that effort. Then i compare time based efforts against my best power for the duration- and push to make power go up in training. I can also look back at a 6-week block up until the week before i tapered for a big event and compare it to current 6-week block of training and get an idea of how my time might be on race day.. this is a good indicator for me- because my Max-Wattage numbers are always set on race day.. so a similar or better 6 week ramp up will usually yield a similar or better result on race day..

Brian Ratliff

Lack of track time. Power is a great thing if you do most of your training on the road.

Seriously though, standing starts. Speed and acceleration lag torque production, sometimes by a very large margin. And you can use a powermeter to analyze torque. In fact, any place where you are training hard accelerations, having torque data is useful for training those jumps. Speed is literally half the equation of what makes a bike move. The other half is torque, and that is what a powermeter measures.

My only knock against powermeters is they are expensive, and unless you are building a training program around that data (and the specific weaknesses that data uncovers), they are practically useless for sprinting. Track sprinters aren't usually in the business of modulating efforts, and performance improvements are directly measured using a clock.

carleton

Quinn8it

I know- it's crazy that I use my power meter to measure my power...

Baby Puke

I'm curious to see what jmikami's coach comes back with. I'd really like to improve my 200 times this year too and have also felt they are slow compared to what I can do in a standing lap, 500 or kilo.

jmikami

Sadly I will be talking with an enduro coach this year, so advice and my year is geared more towards that. I might chat up Abers a little bit later as well if it seems I can double up and do sprints as well, but I think the general idea is the same ones that have been mentioned here. I currently do all my training on hills at various distances while standing at 80-100 RPM. I am 100% confident that these efforts work well to give me more strength and improve my V02Max and sprinting, and I am 100% confident that I need to augment them with higher RPM work, which I have started doing, but not in conjunction with my intervals, only on my single speed rain bike on zone 2/3 days.

So my plan going into my coaching session is to propose a greater mix of RPM work under seated power and on the track once a week and eventually move all my work away from the hills as I get closer to nationals and increase my higher RPM seated interval work. Strength first, form second ... we shall see.

As far as using power vs speed and time, power is the only thing I can measure that doesn't change with all the other variables I must deal with. Power combined with HR and RPE also gives me the ability to track fatigue and identify when I need to back off vs when I need to double down. Power can do this by downloading to a computer and is just a few clicks away, no notes, stopwatch,velodrome or other devices/people needed. Power over weeks gives me an idea if I am hitting targets and moving forward or stalling out. Time/Cadence/Speed can't do this with the same ease or with the same level of detail and is subject to too many variables. I use to just train by RPE and races. For the last 2 years I have trained by spreadsheet, power and a plan ... but still fallback on races and RPE as needed. I am happy with my current plan which is likely the most important aspect of any plan.

jmikami

Carleton, I think you are missing the point of training with power, because I do look at my power and say I need to change something. While a roadie might use power to set a pace, and I do that on my mid range and long range interval work, that is not the primary point of my power data at any point. I am well beyond needing to look at my power meter or HR to tell what they say. I can pretty much ride my interval courses with a blindfold on and will know my power based on where I am and how I feel and my HR by how far into the interval I am. I glance at them to confirm RPE = screen, but it is just a glance. If RPE <> screen ... I consider shutting it down and waiting a day. Good or bad, I want the feel of my work to be correct.

The primary point of my power data is to download to track fatigue, improvement and compare training efforts to race efforts and see where my training is duplicated in races and where my race data is diverging. I am looking at profiles of efforts to see how I should warm up as well as which effort number has the best output and how much time I need between efforts to maximize output. I have found that by just telling myself it is my last interval of the day I can add 5 or 10% to the effort, it is just mental and something I can see on paper ... and it is hard to trick myself. Try figuring out if 8 minutes or 12 minutes is a better rest time by just looking at the stop watch, I can tell you it is much easier to do with the results of a power meter, HR and combined with RPE, time and speed over a set course. However the time/speed could have been a gust of wind or a more aero position, the power meter will not lie when the wind changes.

Dalai

Sorry if already discussed. Difference of displayed power explained by different powermeters used on the track and road?

carleton

Soooo....

jmikami

My track power meter is new and has insufficient data, I am basing this more on results, speed, RPE, races, etc over many years. As it will be different power meters on the road and track I will need to account for that, which might be difficult, but is possible.

Yes, I missed your comment about that earlier I guess. I use it for more post training and race analysis than looking at it while riding. While riding I am focusing on many other things, my bike computer is not a focus. I just don't get why you seem to push power back on your list of items to review and other things forward, but whatever works for you.

Velocirapture

Unfortunately it doesn't really work this way.
Yes, road and track riders use the same energy systems. 'Cos they are the only energy systems we have! But they use them very differently, and with very different effect.

All our energy systems use ATP. ATP is the only substance that is the final step in the cellular energy chain. I can virtually hear the gasps of disbelief at that - yes, we use sugars, and proteins etc etc, but those fuels break down and are turned into ATP.

Without going into a long biology lesson, you basically have 3 systems -10s explosive power, it uses no oxygen, and produces no lactic acid, but it does use creatine phospate, and the small amount of ATP sitting waiting in your cells.
the ~2min power system; also anearobic, but the sugars sitting inside your cells (in the form of glycogen), are metabolised into ATP, which then powers your muscle contractions. It also produces lactic acid, and although quickly available, its not very efficient sugar-use.
after that the aerobic energy system kicks in, and can keep going for ages, but is just not that quick at producing the ATP

It takes at least 5 minutes for cells that have exhausted their little store of standing ATP to fully replenish those stores. If your muscles are still working, they will constantly be producing ATP from sugars, aerobically, but there is no chance for a nice little stockpile to develop that gives you the big 'bang' of instant explosive energy. instead for that crit or road sprint, you switch to your anearobic lactic system, which gives you a big kick, but not as big a kick as your creatine phosphate system.

This doesn't answer your question, but can possibly give you a different perspective on your training.

jmikami

I think a few of us on the boards have a good understanding of the biology and I am sure you know more than you said. However a couple of key points that need to be mentioned, and I am sure my summary will have some holes as well but clears up a few things that are important.

1) The ATP-phosphate system is two things, first stored ATP, second phosphate that can replenish the ATP in "maximal sprint" mode. It is this phosphate (phosphagen system)that takes 5 minutes to replenish, not the ATP. Once the phosphate system is replenished you have the energy to use a maximal sprint again. However your muscles will not be recovered enough at this point even by sitting on your ass, so you maximal sprint will likely not be so maximal, but you will be using your sprint energy system again, just not as effectively.
2) You are 100% wrong in that the big bang ATP-phosphate system can't be restored while on the bike doing aerobic work. Doing lactate work makes it much much harder to restore, but doing aerobic work actually helps especially if you can keep your aerobic system untaxed in zone 2/3. I have power profiles that show race ending power numbers that in no way can be produced from anything but phosphate that have occurred after similar strikes earlier in the race for primes. Between the two spikes I was doing zone 3/4 work for 15 minutes. This is not a one time thing.
3) You can train all of 3 of these systems for change, and all 3 interact with each other and the interactions can be trained as well. The phosphate system can replenish for 20-25 continuous seconds, although muscular strength will start to go down during this time. Think about how guys like Michael Johnson can run a 200m at the same speed as a 100m ... all about training that phosphate system to reach out beyond the 5 to 10 seconds of the untrained person.

I personally have a number of power profiles from races that show my power at a very high level for between 20 and 25 seconds, and I am sure others have done that as well. This is nothing but a maximal speed effort, my lactate/glycolysis system can't touch the power numbers that my phosphate system does. I can repeat this process every 15 to 30 minutes while doing high level work, I can even through in a lactate/glycolysis effort which is double my aerobic system, but still not touching my phosphate system. Having taping into that too much will zap my muscular endurance and mean when I tap into my 4x power producing system I will not be as effective, but I will still be using that energy system.

Here is a good primer for those who want to read up. Understanding Energy Systems: ATP-PC, Glycolytic, and Oxidative, Oh My! | Breaking Muscle

For me it is simple. MY aerobic system can produce x power, my lactate system can produce 2x power and my phosphate system can do 4x power. How efficient those power stores are used depends on training and the current build up of "crap" and fatigue in my legs. don't confuse energy systems for training and fatigue.

jmikami

oh and all this does is prove my point that I am odd since I produce more power on the road or in training after a 1 or 2 hour ride that I do when "fresh" and doing my 200 meter time on the track. Hence the point of this whole thread. I am starting to think my bike fit and comfort on the bike along with our tight velodrome corners is maybe more than 50% of the issue as well as my standing cadence issues ... but I will learn more and share here as my case study of one continues.

Velocirapture

[QUOTE=jmikami;16746344
1) The ATP-phosphate system is two things, first stored ATP, second phosphate that can replenish the ATP in "maximal sprint" mode. It is this phosphate (phosphagen system)that takes 5 minutes to replenish, not the ATP. Once the phosphate system is replenished you have the energy to use a maximal sprint again. However your muscles will not be recovered enough at this point even by sitting on your ass, so you maximal sprint will likely not be so maximal, but you will be using your sprint energy system again, just not as effectively.
2) You are 100% wrong in that the big bang ATP-phosphate system can't be restored while on the bike doing aerobic work. Doing lactate work makes it much much harder to restore, but doing aerobic work actually helps especially if you can keep your aerobic system untaxed in zone 2/3. I have power profiles that show race ending power numbers that in no way can be produced from anything but phosphate that have occurred after similar strikes earlier in the race for primes. Between the two spikes I was doing zone 3/4 work for 15 minutes. This is not a one time thing.
3) You can train all of 3 of these systems for change, and all 3 interact with each other and the interactions can be trained as well. The phosphate system can replenish for 20-25 continuous seconds, although muscular strength will start to go down during this time. Think about how guys like Michael Johnson can run a 200m at the same speed as a 100m ... all about training that phosphate system to reach out beyond the 5 to 10 seconds of the untrained person.
[/QUOTE]

1) Incorrect.
2) Under the assumption of your initially proposed scenario, of a fast paced leadout train, with a few hard kicks before the big sprint, zone 2/3 is not relevant. yes, there will be more recovery of all systems at a lower pace. I'm sure you put out big power. You are assume that it is from your fully recharged ATP-PC system. It is not.
3) Agreed that these systems can be trained, this is why we train . Your '10s power' may last 12s, or 8s, but its not going to extend to 20s, even if you are jmikami

all that aside, the science behind energy systems doesn't solve your question. How about using your road bike on the track, to eliminate possible power-meter differneces?

gtrob

I think we have a few topics going on at once and in circles here. To your point, on fresh rested legs you really should be faster/higher power on the track and I agree. At the very least your peak power numbers should be very close (mine are better on the track!). As simple as I can think of it, you are just not working as hard on the track But seriously, I have a drop in power as I hit my first corner. As ive mentioned I ride an insanely tight track so its a massive amount of g-force scares me every time and I back off and actually pick speed back up on the other stretch. I still don't think you should compare TIMES on road vs track, but I don't see a flaw with comparing POWER, as long as you are taking into consideration the condition your legs are in.

I think if you really want to take the bike out of it, try and do a f200 simulation on the road. From a standstill, 1 gear, say 400m before a slight 2m downhill, windup, jump before the downhill (this is coming down the bank) and ride for 11s and see what it looks like.

jmikami

You graph is based on an untrained athlete Velocirapture. Just because someone made a pretty chart with the basics, doesn't mean that you can't train beyond that and those are the numbers. I can also tell you for a fact that the lactate system can be drawn out longer than a minute or two as well.

Please explain what is wrong with number 1 above? Nothing I said there is in debate in anything I have ever read. You have ATP, that ATP gets recharged by the Phosphate system for a period of time before switching to the lactate. The phosphate recharge of the ATP is what gives you a sprint beyond a few seconds, your lactate system is not being used much if any during this phosphate rerecharge. This really has nothing to do with ATP stores or ATP, expect that ATP is the final result, this has to do with how you create the ATP. Phosphate = huge and fast, lactate = complex and messy and either kinda fast or just a little fast depending on how you use it, then you fall onto aerobic and will not be going fast at all - but all create ATP used for any speed, it is just a matter of how fast the system can deliver ATP that determines the speed you can go out side of muscular endurance which is also a factor. Can we agree on this basic point of energy?

On point 2, a well trained athlete will barely touch their phosphate stores, even during a leadout. this is why you see some sprinters who can go from 300 and 400 meters out from the line after a leadout. No sprinter alive can survive a sprint without a fully charge phosphate system there is just no comparison between the lactate and phosphate system when it comes to power/speed. I, as well as other sprinters can maintain a speed near our aerobic max, then lean on our lactate system during the leadout, and then finally pull from our phosphate system during the final kick. Sure we might have used up 5% of the phosphate system during the leadout or holding wheels, but we are going to use the rest of that 95% during the final sprint.

You can not sprint against a sprinter on lactate alone, it is not possible against another sprinter type. My sprinting power numbers of which I have many do not change much between fully rested and 2 hours later with constant aerobic pacing, including leadouts. A really fast leadout or a crit is likely to tax my muscular endurance and my tap my phosphate more than 5%, and in that case yes I will be sprinting on fumes, aka fast glycolysis ... and I will not reach top power. But I can see that on a chart later as it is more than obvious.

On point 3, please explain why you think the phosphate system can't be trained to 25 seconds? I personally have done it, there is no way my lactate system is going to give me over 1,000 watts ... it is not that strong, I have seen power profiles of others that have done it. There is no way that the top 200m runner/sprinters in the world who have the same 100 and 200m speed have figured out how to make their lactate systems give them the same speed as their phosphate systems. I am not saying that I am only using phosphate for the 25 second of my sprint, and here is an opinion, I think what I and other long sprinters are doing is figuring out how to train our lactate systems to buffer our phosphate systems to extend it. All I know is that fresh or not I have the same 20 sec +/- second kick as I do when fatigued to a point. And I have done it 100s of times, not just a few. Only sprinting for 10 seconds does not improve my speed, it just shortens it as I have another 10 seconds of "sprint" left.

The issue with energy systems is they are very easy to identify, especially the phosphate system. Phosphate is such a huge kick over even the fast glycolysis (lactate) system that it is not even close. But like I said here is where I lose my science and have to go with gut to say I think I am leaning on my glycolysis to extend my phosphate, or maybe it is just my phosphate extended to 25 seconds, I don't know. Regardless, I an many others can "sprint" for between 10 and 25 seconds, I am not sure the exact extent of the cap on time and that is just training. There is a zero percent chance I am using my glycolysis system during a top level sprint at any point in any race, it will not work ... unless I am not sprinting and just going fast.

Understanding these systems in both training and racing is the difference between winning and losing. I have won many races by knowing that my competition can't match my sprint duration and have taken them long. This would not work if I took them long on lactate, they would pass me every time. I have also won many races knowing that my system was not well trained and ensuring the sprint started late with me near the lead not giving the long sprinters a chance to drain me.

I have done many many power and sprint tests, fresh and tired, even taken my road bike to the velodrome and tried sprinting when fresh ... it is the velodrome that does it to me. Well that and seated/higher RPM power. I need to work on this if I want to better transfer my road power to the track, and plan to.

I enjoy these side track discussions as much as the real talk as they help to reinforce topics. I am actually curious if you can punch holes in my logic so that I can refine and use it for better training in the future. But I have lots of data to back up my logic, so please dig away.

carleton

Dude, you came asking for help. People offered help. Then you proceeded to tell everyone that offered help that they are wrong.

What do you want us to tell you?

DanAVL

Granted, I'm a newb and while I have a basic operational understanding of the energy systems, I don't have any grasp of the sport specific argument here.

However, is it possible you're simply better at one because you do it more and any results(data or anecdotal) are simply a product of specific adaptation??

Seriously asking.

jmikami

I summarized the feedback a few pages ago and got some good back and forth and am ready to talk with a coach, and thanked that group for that. I race both equally, but train in a way that is not conducive to fast 200 meter times, will make a plan this month and let the group know how it goes.

As I just said, my issues were hashed out a few pages ago, I am thankful for that help. We are just now dealing a thread derail that you and a couple others created by spreading bad information about how the sprint system works. Road/Track/Running/Doesn't matter, the energy system used for sprinting comes from the replenishment of ATP via phosphate, period, this is science. My training to extend that beyond the 10 second refresh to the 20 second refresh ... aka a 200 meter runner who can run the same speed in the 100m and 200m dash is also not much of a myth or one off ... happens all the time. My ability to do this at the end of a 2 hour road ride is also full of other profiles and not just mine, not a myth.

I don't like bad information being spread out so if you have some science to debate my ideas about how energy and sprinting work, great, bring it on. I would love to evolve my training to a higher ground with new info, but bring some evidence or science with you and don't just say I am wrong. there is way to much evidence and books to support my thoughts, and I am waiting for someone to bring something to the table that disputes it.

jmikami

For those that care and missed my summary ... here it is. I appreciate the groups time and will report back with progress for those who care.

WTBATS

You guys are nuts talking about "road sprint" vs "track sprint" for this many pages.

jmikami - I don't know what you are trying to prove here. All these words you are typing are doing nothing to get you faster.

Just get out on the track, have fun, and sprint as fast as you can!

saba

Jimkami you and I are brothers for another mother. Sounds on the road and track we have a similar profile and concerns of how to translate road to track. I too feel my track stuff is less than my road stuff. I bet a big problem for both of us is we are very efficent AEROBIC folks but we lack on the ANEROBE system. I dunno know about you but since that is what I was given I train the hell out of it. Love your reference to 500 meter hill attacks. Use that one almost exclusively. However that is not maximal aka ANEROBIC work. Sorry it might feel like it but its not.
After reading through this thread I am going to reiterate what others especially Carelton have been constantly trying to tell you. In many ways to get faster on the track you have to unlearn or rather open your mind to track speed vs road speed. I get the sense your listening but not hearing what others have dropped on you in this thread.

Some things I learned this offseason:

For track:
Speed kills
Stopwatch is superior to power meter
Leg speed
mushing vs spinning
finding the line on the track
proper timed windup
max recovery time
repetition

I am going to leave you with 1 other anecdote. My coach over the winter took away my 11. "Merck won races in his 13 and so can you." I was given 1 shift drills out on the road 96 on the rollers. 1 shift means 15-14 or 14-13 to get it done at max speed. Ya wanna know what I found out? If I went below(panic move that I know you do too!) say from 13 to 12-11 I did not go FASTER but SLOWER!!! Notice I did not say more or less powerful I said faster/slower.

YMMV