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  1. #1
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Racers and Coaches: What would you want out of a track-specific iOS app?

    I may (may not) be working on an app for the iPhone and Apple Watch.

    What features, "wouldn't-it-be-cool-ifs", or wishlist items can you suggest for me? The more detail the better.

    What have you seen in other apps that you like?

  2. #2
    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    A few were mentioned in the other thread:

    - UCI countdown timer (especially if you were doing iPad, too-- you could put lights and a clock on it)
    - pursuit schedule calculator that lets you put in time, start differential, and track length

    plus some more:
    - 3 line stopwatch with "tape" (ideally it would have two side by side or up/down so you could time the opposing rider, too, with a single start and separate split/stop buttons)
    - gear calculator (there are a few good ones out there already though)
    - interval timer that lets you program an interval set (time in zone x, time in zone y,...time in zone whatever, and reps per set, then gives you beeps in different tones to tell you when to change)
    - list of tracks and their lengths, plus links to them (you'd probably want to pull this from a server regularly)
    - bike setup information (e.g. spindle to saddle top, seatpost to bars, etc. for those times I end up visiting a track and renting a bike)
    Track - the other off-road
    http://www.lavelodrome.org

  3. #3
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Thanks, man!

    I have the gear calculator built. It's sort of unique. I'll show it off soon.

    I'm definitely working on:
    - UCI Countdown timer and a stopwatch. That's a great idea to time the opposing rider!
    - Pursuit schedule calculator. I've made some progress so far and it also has some unique outputs.

    These are definitely in line with were I'd like to go with the app. More of a "Coach's Utility" than anything else. I need to learn how to go deep with the pursuit timing aspect. I've never been a pursuiter so I've never invested brain cells in that area

    I hadn't considered the track and bike setup reference info. That's a great idea, too. I've written down my bike specs on a million scraps of paper over the years! Maybe this will go into a companion reference app. Not sure.

    Keep the ideas coming.

    Also, if you see some similar apps with features you'd like for me to see, let me know.

    I hope to have this in the App store by the end of next month. I'm using Apple Swift, so you guys will have to upgrade to iOS 8 to use it.

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    Andy Coggan has some articles about the pursuit on his blog. Especially part 3 is about pacing (which is supposed not to be completely even). Your app could compare the actual split time with the planned split time and also indicate whether the rider has to go faster to reach a certain time. Ipad seems to be more useful for something like that. Jens got the pacing signaled on a tablet during the hour attempt.
    (Nevertheless I'm not going to buy an Apple ios toy)

  5. #5
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Thanks, Tman!

    I have a buddy who is a top-notch Android developer and also a trackie. Maybe I can get him on the case, too

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    Senior Member wens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Thanks, Tman!

    I have a buddy who is a top-notch Android developer and also a trackie. Maybe I can get him on the case, too
    I support this. I was trying and failing to come up with a non snarky way of saying the feature I would want is working on android.
    Do you think we're gonna make it? / I don't know unless we try \ you could sit here scared to move / or we could take them by surprise

  7. #7
    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I hadn't considered the track and bike setup reference info. That's a great idea, too. I've written down my bike specs on a million scraps of paper over the years! Maybe this will go into a companion reference app. Not sure.
    The "Mybikeinfo" app is where I got the idea for measurements. It's basically an app for cataloging your bikes down to the smallest detail.

    For the pursuit timer, if there's enough screen you might have it automatically round and display in large (or bold, or a different color) the number to call out. I.e. if someone is riding a 17.39 it would show "7.4" to keep you from calling out 7.3 by accident.

    If you want to be really super awesome, figure out how to take hardware inputs and set it up to take a tape-switch input...
    Track - the other off-road
    http://www.lavelodrome.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    If you want to be really super awesome, figure out how to take hardware inputs and set it up to take a tape-switch input...
    I was thinking about this as well. Set up hardware on the tape switch which transmits a ANT+ and/or bluetooth pulse when contacted. The phone app on the bike measures time between pulses.

  9. #9
    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gl98115 View Post
    I was thinking about this as well. Set up hardware on the tape switch which transmits a ANT+ and/or bluetooth pulse when contacted. The phone app on the bike measures time between pulses.
    I was thinking to leave the phone or ipad on the apron, but bluetooth is even better!

    Probably not too hard to do as an arduino project.
    Track - the other off-road
    http://www.lavelodrome.org

  10. #10
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Voice control so I can start and stop the clock without taking my hands from the bars. Alternately, a wireless thumb mounted button I can easily press in the middle of an effort. Somehow making something I can control while in full sprint that has better than the 1sec resolution given by Strava.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  11. #11
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    The "Mybikeinfo" app is where I got the idea for measurements. It's basically an app for cataloging your bikes down to the smallest detail.
    I'll look into it. I think that this will ultimately be a suite of apps by the time we are done.

    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    For the pursuit timer, if there's enough screen you might have it automatically round and display in large (or bold, or a different color) the number to call out. I.e. if someone is riding a 17.39 it would show "7.4" to keep you from calling out 7.3 by accident.
    Great idea. I'm on it. Thanks! I made great progress last night. I hope to have the 2-up timing done today

    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    If you want to be really super awesome, figure out how to take hardware inputs and set it up to take a tape-switch input...
    Quote Originally Posted by gl98115 View Post
    I was thinking about this as well. Set up hardware on the tape switch which transmits a ANT+ and/or bluetooth pulse when contacted. The phone app on the bike measures time between pulses.
    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    I was thinking to leave the phone or ipad on the apron, but bluetooth is even better!

    Probably not too hard to do as an arduino project.
    I've been working on that too as a research effort. I'm learning the Bluetooth framework. I can get raw Hex/Binary data from a speed/cadence sensor that I'm playing with, but I'm stuck on how to translate that into base 10. I'm getting unexpected errors in Swift (not sure if it's my fault or that the framework isn't fully baked...probably the former). The harder part will be setting up a tape switch, arduino, etc... But all of that is definitely on my radar.

    The Bluetooth LE range is less than 100M. I think the bugger will be BT connecting, disconnecting, or not connecting when it's in and out of range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Voice control so I can start and stop the clock without taking my hands from the bars.
    WOW. That thought has never occurred to me. I need to research this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Alternately, a wireless thumb mounted button I can easily press in the middle of an effort. Somehow making something I can control while in full sprint that has better than the 1sec resolution given by Strava.
    This is why I bought a BT speed/cadence sensor to work on making a BT thumb switch system. This will take a lot longer to make than some of the calculating, timing, logging features mentioned above.

  12. #12
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Thanks, bitingduck, for the split timer idea.

    I have a UI with two buttons that a observer will tap as each rider crosses the start/finish line.

    The back-end arrays have this data in them. I had it write out the Rider, Rider's Lap, Split time, Lap time, Lap Avg Speed, and Lap Avg Cadence. I have to flesh out the latter two values later this week. I'll need gear and track length as inputs, but that's not hard.

    Rider 2: Lap 1: Split: 24.8002330064774 | Lap: 24.8002330064774 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 1: Lap 1: Split: 25.5000630021095 | Lap: 25.5000610351562 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 2: Lap 2: Split: 40.7292090058327 | Lap: 15.9289730191231 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 1: Lap 2: Split: 41.4492390155792 | Lap: 15.9491750001907 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 1: Lap 3: Split: 49.3584740161896 | Lap: 7.90923100709915 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 2: Lap 3: Split: 50.1787070035934 | Lap: 9.44949597120285 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 1: Lap 4: Split: 57.8990510106087 | Lap: 8.54057198762894 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 2: Lap 4: Split: 58.7780510187149 | Lap: 8.59934103488922 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 1: Lap 5: Split: 66.0887719988823 | Lap: 8.18971699476242 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 2: Lap 5: Split: 68.9882999658585 | Lap: 10.2102480530739 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 1: Lap 6: Split: 75.0880590081215 | Lap: 8.99928295612335 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0
    Rider 2: Lap 6: Split: 78.8683729767799 | Lap: 9.88006800413132 | AVGSPD: 0.0 | AVGCAD: 0


    As you can see in this 6 lap race, Rider 2 went out hot but rider 1 caught him on lap 3 and continued on to win.

    I'll make a much more user friendly output. But, I'm happy to have the buttons logging as expected

  13. #13
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I used this video to do a quick test:



    The back-end arrays have this data in them. Here's the data I have:

    AUS Rider:
    Rider: AUS: Lap 01: Split: 20.685 | Lap: 20.685
    Rider: AUS: Lap 02: Split: 36.085 | Lap: 15.399
    Rider: AUS: Lap 03: Split: 51.525 | Lap: 15.440
    Rider: AUS: Lap 04: Split: 67.355 | Lap: 15.829
    Rider: AUS: Lap 05: Split: 82.985 | Lap: 15.629
    Rider: AUS: Lap 06: Split: 98.854 | Lap: 15.869
    Rider: AUS: Lap 07: Split: 114.705 | Lap: 15.850
    Rider: AUS: Lap 08: Split: 130.875 | Lap: 16.170
    Rider: AUS: Lap 09: Split: 146.805 | Lap: 15.929
    Rider: AUS: Lap 10: Split: 162.705 | Lap: 15.899
    Rider: AUS: Lap 11: Split: 178.918 | Lap: 16.213


    Swiss Rider:
    Rider: SWI: Lap 01: Split: 21.917 | Lap: 21.917
    Rider: SWI: Lap 02: Split: 37.816 | Lap: 15.899
    Rider: SWI: Lap 03: Split: 53.155 | Lap: 15.338
    Rider: SWI: Lap 04: Split: 68.730 | Lap: 15.580
    Rider: SWI: Lap 05: Split: 84.685 | Lap: 15.949
    Rider: SWI: Lap 06: Split: 100.500 | Lap: 15.899
    Rider: SWI: Lap 07: Split: 116.505 | Lap: 15.919
    Rider: SWI: Lap 08: Split: 132.635 | Lap: 16.130
    Rider: SWI: Lap 09: Split: 148.685 | Lap: 16.050
    Rider: SWI: Lap 10: Split: 164.935 | Lap: 16.249
    Rider: SWI: Lap 11: Split: 181.284 | Lap: 16.349


    Combined
    Rider: AUS: Lap 01: Split: 20.685 | Lap: 20.685
    Rider: SWI: Lap 01: Split: 21.917 | Lap: 21.917
    Rider: AUS: Lap 02: Split: 36.085 | Lap: 15.399
    Rider: SWI: Lap 02: Split: 37.816 | Lap: 15.899
    Rider: AUS: Lap 03: Split: 51.525 | Lap: 15.440
    Rider: SWI: Lap 03: Split: 53.155 | Lap: 15.338
    Rider: AUS: Lap 04: Split: 67.355 | Lap: 15.829
    Rider: SWI: Lap 04: Split: 68.730 | Lap: 15.580
    Rider: AUS: Lap 05: Split: 82.985 | Lap: 15.629
    Rider: SWI: Lap 05: Split: 84.685 | Lap: 15.949
    Rider: AUS: Lap 06: Split: 98.854 | Lap: 15.869
    Rider: SWI: Lap 06: Split: 100.500 | Lap: 15.899
    Rider: AUS: Lap 07: Split: 114.705 | Lap: 15.850
    Rider: SWI: Lap 07: Split: 116.505 | Lap: 15.919
    Rider: AUS: Lap 08: Split: 130.875 | Lap: 16.170
    Rider: SWI: Lap 08: Split: 132.635 | Lap: 16.130
    Rider: AUS: Lap 09: Split: 146.805 | Lap: 15.929
    Rider: SWI: Lap 09: Split: 148.685 | Lap: 16.050
    Rider: AUS: Lap 10: Split: 162.705 | Lap: 15.899
    Rider: SWI: Lap 10: Split: 164.935 | Lap: 16.249
    Rider: AUS: Lap 11: Split: 178.918 | Lap: 16.213
    Rider: SWI: Lap 11: Split: 181.284 | Lap: 16.349



    I stopped after 11 laps because my phone rang

    Now compare those numbers to the official analysis from Tissot Timing / UCI:



    http://www.tissottiming.com/File/Dow...FFFFFFFFFFFF03

    Last edited by carleton; 09-21-14 at 11:40 PM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Thanks, bitingduck, for the split timer idea.

    I have a UI with two buttons that a observer will tap as each rider crosses the start/finish line.

    The back-end arrays have this data in them. I had it write out the Rider, Rider's Lap, Split time, Lap time, Lap Avg Speed, and Lap Avg Cadence. I have to flesh out the latter two values later this week. I'll need gear and track length as inputs, but that's not hard.


    As you can see in this 6 lap race, Rider 2 went out hot but rider 1 caught him on lap 3 and continued on to win.

    I'll make a much more user friendly output. But, I'm happy to have the buttons logging as expected
    That was fast!!

    As far as bluetooth-- don't use BLE, it's useful for trackers like tile where you want the battery to last a year, but you don't need that. Crank up the power as much as you can! 100 m range will cover anything on a 250 m track. Doing 200 m times (e.g. with two tapes) in a 333 or larger could be tricky, but if regular bluetooth will cover a longer range you should be ok.
    Track - the other off-road
    http://www.lavelodrome.org

  15. #15
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    That was fast!!

    As far as bluetooth-- don't use BLE, it's useful for trackers like tile where you want the battery to last a year, but you don't need that. Crank up the power as much as you can! 100 m range will cover anything on a 250 m track. Doing 200 m times (e.g. with two tapes) in a 333 or larger could be tricky, but if regular bluetooth will cover a longer range you should be ok.
    Noted. Thanks!

    My buddy John Dowd at DLV created a pretty sophisticated electronic timing system for that track. We even ran cables underground and everything. It's steadily evolving. This may be our winter project.

    BTW, In this process I've figured out why there are so many Bluetooth LE combined speed/cadence sensors out there. Speed and Cadence are combined in the BT Services Spec. Clever, I guess...but that's why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I may (may not) be working on an app for the iPhone and Apple Watch.

    What features, "wouldn't-it-be-cool-ifs", or wishlist items can you suggest for me? The more detail the better.

    What have you seen in other apps that you like?
    To add a couple of years to the development time how about trying to do auto laps on the bike with the camera to detect when you cross the lines. Seems like pursuit (red cross track) would be simplest then get into the 200 and start finish. Combine with the start timer and you can get self timed reaction times and lap timings. I suspect it might need to be post processing of video images.
    Also the G-force meters in the phones should allow measuring side to side rocking, pedal smoothness and G-force in corners (just how strong do those wheels need to be?). Power vs. g-force gets effectiveness of power application and a higher granularity on speed (again to the start reaction).

  17. #17
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slindell View Post
    To add a couple of years to the development time how about trying to do auto laps on the bike with the camera to detect when you cross the lines. Seems like pursuit (red cross track) would be simplest then get into the 200 and start finish. Combine with the start timer and you can get self timed reaction times and lap timings. I suspect it might need to be post processing of video images.
    Also the G-force meters in the phones should allow measuring side to side rocking, pedal smoothness and G-force in corners (just how strong do those wheels need to be?). Power vs. g-force gets effectiveness of power application and a higher granularity on speed (again to the start reaction).
    "a couple of years" is about right

    But, keep the ideas coming. You never know, some may be easier to implement than imagined. I'm still learning all of the different frameworks and what they can (and cannot) do.

  18. #18
    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slindell View Post
    Seems like pursuit (red cross track) would be simplest then get into the 200 and start finish. Combine with the start timer and you can get self timed reaction times and lap timings. I suspect it might need to be post processing of video images.
    I'd think finish would be easiest, since it's white-black-white (high contrast) and there's only one of them. With pursuit you don't know which one you're at.
    Track - the other off-road
    http://www.lavelodrome.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
    I'd think finish would be easiest, since it's white-black-white (high contrast) and there's only one of them. With pursuit you don't know which one you're at.
    My thought was that detecting a color change might be easier than intensity outdoors and counting every other line should not be a problem. Looking a bit more it looks like the iPhone uses variable capture rates so timing gets more interesting and at lower frame rates it might start to miss bits so probably not worth pursuing.

  20. #20
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Update:

    Single Timer
    - The core code is done. Need to refactor it a bit in order to be consistent with the 2-Up timer that I subsequently created.
    - Will have:
    -- UCI Countdown timer
    -- Elapsed time
    -- Split times per lap
    -- Lap times per lap
    -- Avg speed per lap
    -- Avg cadence per lap (provided you enter chainring/cog info

    2-Up Timer:
    - I'm almost done with the first version of this, but I ran into a snag with generating the user-friendly output.
    - Will have:
    -- Elapsed time
    -- Split times per lap
    -- Lap times per lap
    -- Avg speed per lap
    -- Avg cadence per lap (provided you enter chainring/cog info
    -- Lap-by-lap comparison of rider A vs B

    UCI Countdown:
    - I've written the code using system sounds (small beeps and "tink" sounds). I have to make the proper tones using Garage band or something.


    Gear Calculator
    - Done.

    So, I think the first version of this will focus on the stuff above. I think I have have all of this done by Sunday and submitted to the app store.

    I'll need testers who have iOS 8 installed

  21. #21
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Any musically-inclined people watching this thread?

    If so, by chance can you tell me what notes are being used in the UCI Gate Timers?

    I don't even have a sound file to offer

  22. #22
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Any musically-inclined people watching this thread?

    If so, by chance can you tell me what notes are being used in the UCI Gate Timers?

    I don't even have a sound file to offer
    I think I figured it out (from memory). I think it's F# with the final "go" tone also F# but an octave higher.

  23. #23
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    it is definitely an octave

    or possibly two octaves higher

  24. #24
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
    it is definitely an octave

    or possibly two octaves higher
    Thanks.

    I'm going to push this weekend to have a 1.0 candidate ready by Sunday night.

  25. #25
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    Its something like "Beep, Beep, BEEEEEP".

    hope that helps.


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