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  1. #1
    Senior Member theblackbullet's Avatar
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    Thoughts on my fit?

    So I may or may not have crushed the front end on this bike. Seth Snyder is willing to rebuild the front triangle for me, and I can make some changes if I want to. I've been telling myself that I want a longer top tube, but I'm not honestly sure if I really do. I'm currently using a 110mm stem and still have the option of keeping original dimensions and running a 120-130mm stem to add length. I'm also running a pretty shallow bar to. I'll be going with a steeper headtube angle, but what do you guys think in regards to effective top tube length? Stay the same and try longer stems or stretch it out a little more?


  2. #2
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I think you need a TT that is 3-4 cm longer. What size is your TT now?

    Also, you should consider running shallow bars with a long stem OR deep reach bars with a normal stem. But don't rely on bars and stem to address a top tube problem. Currently, it looks like your hands are well behind the front axle. The purpose of the bar/stem combo is to put your hands in the right position with horizontal relation to the front axle and vertical relationship to the saddle (saddle-to-bar drop).

  3. #3
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    I'd like to see you more like this:




    When your arms go out forward more, your back will go down...even for all-around rider that you are.

  4. #4
    Senior Member theblackbullet's Avatar
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    Cool, thanks for the input Carleton. Current effective top tube length is 60cm.

  5. #5
    VeloSIRraptor
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    holy smokes are you ever cramped up in there - yikes.
    Get that thing longer, much longer. At least 3 cm? 4cm is probably fine, but certainly no less than 3.

    Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't been paying much attention on the board this year), but if memory serves, you are a 3, enduro-trending-to-sprinter stuff?
    What long-term goals do you have for this track racing stuff? Trying to get to some NTC races for sprints, trying to get a category upgrade, grow up to be like Carleton-the-big-flossa and set your track's record in the F200?
    Are you pretty flexy? Can you generate legit power in a tight position, what happens if you bring your position up a bit - do you get a magical +30w?... asking, as many people go to the end of their possible physical positions without checking to see where the |power vs aero =speed| tradeoff actually happens.

    The following advice is based on the assumption that you want your bike to work for both sprints and enduro stuff- and that you won't be doing races longer than 30' in your track position.
    As a personal annecdote, this matters as I can promise you that races of +35' will make any of us rethink our track positions in a BIG way... so, yeah- there's one of my take-aways from last season


    Getting more drop is tricky to figure from that photo as you are so cramped that you can't really go further down and generate any power (at least, it doesn't look like it to me). More drop may well be helpful, but this "perfect internet fitting from a single action photo" is really an art not a science.
    The photo angle doesn't help much, but are you sitting pretty far back on your saddle?

    I'd love to see some photos of what you look like rotated further forward on your sitzbonez- it'll lengthen your position (a positive) while getting you lower in front while opening your hip angle (double positives!!)... but theoretically changing your fit and then (re)building a custom bike around that position is a tricky proposition, no?

    Anyhow- with a bit more info, I'd love to throw yet more advice of dubious quality at you.
    ~Cheers
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  6. #6
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't been paying much attention on the board this year), but if memory serves, you are a 3, enduro-trending-to-sprinter stuff?
    What long-term goals do you have for this track racing stuff? Trying to get to some NTC races for sprints, trying to get a category upgrade, grow up to be like Carleton-the-big-flossa and set your track's record in the F200?...
    Hahaha, he's already surpassed what I can do on just about every level...I'm a one-trick pony.

    bullet, hopefully Seth has a fit-bike. You'll see that if you get on the fit-bike and simply extend the TT forward (and the bars don't even have to go down) it will change a lot. It will feel awkward at first, but you'll adjust quickly. So think "out" not necessarily "down".

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    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    You'll see that if you get on the fit-bike and simply extend the TT forward (and the bars don't even have to go down) it will change a lot. It will feel awkward at first, but you'll adjust quickly. So think "out" not necessarily "down".
    yup- this is the easiest/best change, certainly the place to start.
    again, this is quite dependent on what you want to do with your racing- If you want to do 80 lap scratch/points races, you can't get too extended or the arm/back muscular fatigue will catch up to you and it'll be lights-out.
    Handling can get fine-tuned quite a bit by lengthening the wheelbase/Front Center of your setup, I now have quite different opinions about wheelbase/stability then I did previously... so, there's that.

    Also, changing your handlebar can shift your position around by several CM... that's Massive, if you are thinking about changing handlebars, this is the time to do it and talk it over with your frame guy - makes no sense to change the bike without including the stem/handlebar in the calculation.

    Are you on a setback or straight seatpost?
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  8. #8
    VeloSIRraptor
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    I'm a one-trick pony.
    it's a darn nice trick though - I didn't/don't have anything in my arsenal that nearly as effective as your "one trick".
    Wanna trade?
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If it comes down to a field sprint, you probably won't win, so don't let it.

  9. #9
    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    It's hard to tell from a static picture, but it also seems like you could stand to have the saddle come up and forward, and help get your body into that longer reach by rotating forward and down from your arse/saddle.

    you can test by hopping on a fit cycle, replicating your dimensions, or just by putting a 130mm stem on there and fiddling around - to come to some ideas about what will feel good before your builder goes and builds you a new triangle.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
    It's hard to tell from a static picture, but it also seems like you could stand to have the saddle come up and forward, and help get your body into that longer reach by rotating forward and down from your arse/saddle.
    +1
    that hip angle looks crazy tight!!

  11. #11
    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    If Seth doesn't have a fit bike, maybe you guys can find a gym that uses Cycleops spin bikes (or something similar). Pay the daily fee and both of you do an impromptu fitting there. That would be MUCH cheaper than a $200-300 Retul or Specialized fit.



    That way you can adjust the resistance and see what differnt positions feel like when you are laying down torque or spinning. They come with 170mm cranks. Take your own pedals.

    You won't be able to measure TT length as you would a fit bike, but he'll be able to measure:

    - Pedal spindle to top of saddle
    - Tip of saddle to hand position
    - Hand position to pedal spindle

    These are 3 of the key measurements that Tiemeyer uses. That triangle is the key to it all.

    Last edited by carleton; 10-16-14 at 12:46 PM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member theblackbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    holy smokes are you ever cramped up in there - yikes.
    Get that thing longer, much longer. At least 3 cm? 4cm is probably fine, but certainly no less than 3.

    Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't been paying much attention on the board this year), but if memory serves, you are a 3, enduro-trending-to-sprinter stuff?
    What long-term goals do you have for this track racing stuff? Trying to get to some NTC races for sprints, trying to get a category upgrade, grow up to be like Carleton-the-big-flossa and set your track's record in the F200?
    Are you pretty flexy? Can you generate legit power in a tight position, what happens if you bring your position up a bit - do you get a magical +30w?... asking, as many people go to the end of their possible physical positions without checking to see where the |power vs aero =speed| tradeoff actually happens.

    The following advice is based on the assumption that you want your bike to work for both sprints and enduro stuff- and that you won't be doing races longer than 30' in your track position.
    As a personal annecdote, this matters as I can promise you that races of +35' will make any of us rethink our track positions in a BIG way... so, yeah- there's one of my take-aways from last season


    Getting more drop is tricky to figure from that photo as you are so cramped that you can't really go further down and generate any power (at least, it doesn't look like it to me). More drop may well be helpful, but this "perfect internet fitting from a single action photo" is really an art not a science.
    The photo angle doesn't help much, but are you sitting pretty far back on your saddle?

    I'd love to see some photos of what you look like rotated further forward on your sitzbonez- it'll lengthen your position (a positive) while getting you lower in front while opening your hip angle (double positives!!)... but theoretically changing your fit and then (re)building a custom bike around that position is a tricky proposition, no?

    Anyhow- with a bit more info, I'd love to throw yet more advice of dubious quality at you.
    ~Cheers
    cat 2 enduro trending towards sprints sound about right. not honestly sure lol My big goals for this upcoming year are focused around the 4k, scratch race, and 1k. I should surpass the current 4k local track record pretty easily next season, F200 not so much! I don't think more drop is feasible at this point. I have lost and will continue to lose a bit more weight to create some room though. Out further is where I want to be.

    I'd really love to play around with a powermeter one day, but I don't currently have access to one.

    I don't have many pictures with the hips rotated forward, but I do feel my aero bar position helps a bit with that.

  13. #13
    Senior Member theblackbullet's Avatar
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    currently has a straight seatpost with saddle clamped in the middle of the rails. I have discussed rotating the rear triangle forward to give it a steeper seat angle. Gonna run some calculations to see what kind of bb height difference we would get by changing that. I will look for a fit bike or play around with some stems on the road bike.

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