Race Tactics
#126
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#127
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I mean, VV was moved from just above the black all the way to the stayers line. If it had been one of the younger guys... Instant relegation. Imagine if someone were overlapped up track on VV? Massive yard sale.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 04-25-15 at 11:00 AM.
#128
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Remember that the Flying 200M is not just a fitness test. It is just as much technique as it is strength and power. For best results, practice it.
Dedicate an entire training day (or at least part of one) to flying 100s and 200s in full aero kit. If you don't have someone to time you, use Top Speed on your bike computer as a metric to track progress.
Dedicate an entire training day (or at least part of one) to flying 100s and 200s in full aero kit. If you don't have someone to time you, use Top Speed on your bike computer as a metric to track progress.
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#130
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In an elimination race would it a be a reasonable idea to attack with a few laps to go? Everytime I did so in training I got a shouting at.
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If it's your coach, it may be because he/she thinks that you don't have enough in you to stay off the front and place in the race.
If it's your opponents, they simply don't want the pace to pick up so early and be forced to chase which may screw up their sprint plans.
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As someone without much snap in my legs, the way I like to race the keirin is to try and get the first spot behind the durney. As the faster riders attempt to come over the top, I can try and hold them wide as long as I can. If they make it around me, I can usually catch their wheel and get pulled into an easy second.
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Who was doing the shouting? Your coach/teammates or your opponents?
If it's your coach, it may be because he/she thinks that you don't have enough in you to stay off the front and place in the race.
If it's your opponents, they simply don't want the pace to pick up so early and be forced to chase which may screw up their sprint plans.
If it's your coach, it may be because he/she thinks that you don't have enough in you to stay off the front and place in the race.
If it's your opponents, they simply don't want the pace to pick up so early and be forced to chase which may screw up their sprint plans.
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Going off the front and soloing for a win is very hard. The pack behind you has the benefit of a draft and they are spending 75% of the energy that you are spending to go the same speed.
#135
aka mattio
Anyway, here's how it works. The race is at the back. Nobody wants to be the first person to chase. Everybody hesitates. As soon as you have a gap, everybody else realizes that they're fighting for second - literally, right now - and they would have to sacrifice that greatly to give anybody else a chance at 1st.
Nobody wants to chase you down for the people getting a free ride, not with a sprint coming up.
Anyway. I think it's a good tactic. Ask your coach WHY they think it's a bad idea.
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The question is - when? If it's too early, it's just a pointless attack. It has to be late enough that nobody is going to chase. In cat 3 races I used to attack all the time when the race got down to 4 or 3 riders. This tactic never failed me as a 3. Never tried it in 1/2 races - even the eliminations I won had me sufficiently gassed that I didn't think I could launch an attack to win.
Anyway, here's how it works. The race is at the back. Nobody wants to be the first person to chase. Everybody hesitates. As soon as you have a gap, everybody else realizes that they're fighting for second - literally, right now - and they would have to sacrifice that greatly to give anybody else a chance at 1st.
Nobody wants to chase you down for the people getting a free ride, not with a sprint coming up.
Anyway. I think it's a good tactic. Ask your coach WHY they think it's a bad idea.
Anyway, here's how it works. The race is at the back. Nobody wants to be the first person to chase. Everybody hesitates. As soon as you have a gap, everybody else realizes that they're fighting for second - literally, right now - and they would have to sacrifice that greatly to give anybody else a chance at 1st.
Nobody wants to chase you down for the people getting a free ride, not with a sprint coming up.
Anyway. I think it's a good tactic. Ask your coach WHY they think it's a bad idea.
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If you don't gap them off far enough, they will simply just sit on your wheel and wait for you tire then come around you.
A teammate like me, who has no chance of placing in such an event, will kill myself to bridge the gap for my teammate(s) and tow them along then I'll either sit in or retire from the race.
EDIT:
It's sometimes expected of lower-ranking members of a team (even a track team) to do stuff like that. Especially if the Sr members have a road background.
Last edited by carleton; 05-11-15 at 04:01 PM.
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But....
If you don't gap them off far enough, they will simply just sit on your wheel and wait for you tire then come around you.
A teammate like me, who has no chance of placing in such an event, will kill myself to bridge the gap for my teammate(s) and tow them along then I'll either sit in or retire from the race.
If you don't gap them off far enough, they will simply just sit on your wheel and wait for you tire then come around you.
A teammate like me, who has no chance of placing in such an event, will kill myself to bridge the gap for my teammate(s) and tow them along then I'll either sit in or retire from the race.
#139
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But, like queerpunk says, ask your coach.
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If they are roadies, then they may try to do some crit tactics (i.e. lead-out trains and whatnot). Also, attacking like that may undermine what your teammates may have going on. But, if it's lower category local racing, it may not be a big deal at all.
But, like queerpunk says, ask your coach.
But, like queerpunk says, ask your coach.
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If it is a training race then perhaps the coach wanted the group to stay together so the training was about learning race skills rather than it just being about fitness.
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#143
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Not really, and certainly not the chief skill you should take away from practicing a miss and out. Should really be learning positioning there.
There's also not usually that much point in attacking a miss and out near the end, because if you're an absolutely useless sprinter you're probably already out, and the sprints at the end are won based on being less blown rather than being the best sprinter when you're fresh,so if you have the legs to attack, you probably also have the legs to win the sprint.
There's also not usually that much point in attacking a miss and out near the end, because if you're an absolutely useless sprinter you're probably already out, and the sprints at the end are won based on being less blown rather than being the best sprinter when you're fresh,so if you have the legs to attack, you probably also have the legs to win the sprint.
#144
aka mattio
there's also not usually that much point in attacking a miss and out near the end, because if you're an absolutely useless sprinter you're probably already out, and the sprints at the end are won based on being less blown rather than being the best sprinter when you're fresh,so if you have the legs to attack, you probably also have the legs to win the sprint.
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I did my first Keirin last night. It was a blast and I placed third. Couple of observations and questions:
Drafting I thought was super easy (I race criteriums a lot, so being tight to a wheel is normal for me), but I saw some riders in front of me who didn't seem comfortable and kept going up track. It looked more like they were uncomfortable than jockeying for position. When this happens, do I just slot into sprinters lane and not worry about the guys up track?
We got the bell, and I came around 2 guys (I was sitting 4th wheel when the derny puled off) going into turn 2. I was trying to mark the wheel of the guy who ended up winning. He did a slight wheel flick and pushed me up track. I lost some speed, but still got on top the gear enough to place 3rd. Afterwards, the winning rider told me he looked back and thought I was going to come over the top. So he decided to do a small flick to cause me to lose momentum. It didn't seem aggressive to me at the time; question here is whether this is common or not for Keirins?
Drafting I thought was super easy (I race criteriums a lot, so being tight to a wheel is normal for me), but I saw some riders in front of me who didn't seem comfortable and kept going up track. It looked more like they were uncomfortable than jockeying for position. When this happens, do I just slot into sprinters lane and not worry about the guys up track?
We got the bell, and I came around 2 guys (I was sitting 4th wheel when the derny puled off) going into turn 2. I was trying to mark the wheel of the guy who ended up winning. He did a slight wheel flick and pushed me up track. I lost some speed, but still got on top the gear enough to place 3rd. Afterwards, the winning rider told me he looked back and thought I was going to come over the top. So he decided to do a small flick to cause me to lose momentum. It didn't seem aggressive to me at the time; question here is whether this is common or not for Keirins?
#147
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I did my first Keirin last night. It was a blast and I placed third. Couple of observations and questions:
Drafting I thought was super easy (I race criteriums a lot, so being tight to a wheel is normal for me), but I saw some riders in front of me who didn't seem comfortable and kept going up track. It looked more like they were uncomfortable than jockeying for position. When this happens, do I just slot into sprinters lane and not worry about the guys up track?
We got the bell, and I came around 2 guys (I was sitting 4th wheel when the derny puled off) going into turn 2. I was trying to mark the wheel of the guy who ended up winning. He did a slight wheel flick and pushed me up track. I lost some speed, but still got on top the gear enough to place 3rd. Afterwards, the winning rider told me he looked back and thought I was going to come over the top. So he decided to do a small flick to cause me to lose momentum. It didn't seem aggressive to me at the time; question here is whether this is common or not for Keirins?
Drafting I thought was super easy (I race criteriums a lot, so being tight to a wheel is normal for me), but I saw some riders in front of me who didn't seem comfortable and kept going up track. It looked more like they were uncomfortable than jockeying for position. When this happens, do I just slot into sprinters lane and not worry about the guys up track?
We got the bell, and I came around 2 guys (I was sitting 4th wheel when the derny puled off) going into turn 2. I was trying to mark the wheel of the guy who ended up winning. He did a slight wheel flick and pushed me up track. I lost some speed, but still got on top the gear enough to place 3rd. Afterwards, the winning rider told me he looked back and thought I was going to come over the top. So he decided to do a small flick to cause me to lose momentum. It didn't seem aggressive to me at the time; question here is whether this is common or not for Keirins?
If the rider leaves the sprinters lane while flicking/sweeping, then it's illegal. That means that they intentionally obstructed your path.
#148
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We were not in sprinters lane when this happened. It is good know that is potentially illegal though.
#149
aka mattio
To your point about drafting - sometimes in keirins, people go uptrack a little bit to ensure that they have a good line forward. It's called "keeping your front wheel clean." Since I'm not much of a sprinter I rely on the opposite tactic - coming from behind and boxing in a rider behind whoever's in front of him.
Anyway, I'm not sure if the riders you saw were defending their positions and trying to keep their front wheels clean, but it's something to think about.
As for that flick - common tactic, and like carleton says, potentially illegal. Also, note that if you're in a position to do it, you're sprinting full gas and you are running out of steam and afraid that somebody else is gonna come around you. If you try and flick right to the red line, know that it's so, so, so easy to overshoot. Be careful. You don't want to flick yourself into somebody.
Anyway, I'm not sure if the riders you saw were defending their positions and trying to keep their front wheels clean, but it's something to think about.
As for that flick - common tactic, and like carleton says, potentially illegal. Also, note that if you're in a position to do it, you're sprinting full gas and you are running out of steam and afraid that somebody else is gonna come around you. If you try and flick right to the red line, know that it's so, so, so easy to overshoot. Be careful. You don't want to flick yourself into somebody.
#150
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Most racers do it as a posturing scare tactic. It works. One good way it works is running into turns 1 or 3, if the lead rider (coming towards the end of the straight) flicks up and comes back down before the turn but sends the rider on his hip to climb into the turn a bit, this forces the 2nd rider to scrub off a couple kph which may be enough to lose a race. This even works in match sprinting.
That being said, it's not worth it. Especially in a Keirin where you have 6 people barreling full-on. That flick could cascade into a mess.
All it takes if for the race director to relegate one or two for racers to get the picture and stop completely. Also, relegate even if it happens incidentally.