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Thread: Race Tactics

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Race Tactics

    Now that some of us are off for a few months, let's review some tape!

    If you have questions about a strategy that you've seen or want to discuss some video, please post.

    I'll start with this World Cup Women's Keirin final:

    Kristina Vogel (WC stripes, current world champion in Keirin) and Shuang Guo (all white kit, world cup leader for Keirin) were both contenders to win. I'd say that Vogel is actually favored to win.

    Watch Shuang Guo stay absolutely glued to Vogel's wheel till the very end. In Guo's mind, the races is between her and Vogel. The other riders are just filler.

    Notice how neither Vogel or Guo react to the Chinese woman's move. Notice how Vogel is only watching for Guo's move



    EXTRA CREDIT:
    Also notice how the Korean woman followed both of them into 3rd place Smart lady.

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    aka mattio queerpunk's Avatar
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    That's such a good keirin. It doesn't really heat up until 1.5 to go. It looks like Varnish and the two riders in red make the first move, but they're dummy moves. Vogel's is the first real one - Guo must have expected that.

    That is textbook patience and power by Guo. She was almost in a pickle in turn 3-4 with 1+ to go, since she was behind riders stacked up four across.

    And then Vogel kept her on her hip really well. If she had a hair less top end she'd have been hung out to dry, since Vogel beat her to the corner.

    But she took it. Pretty balleur.
    the hipster myth.

    i practice vagabondery.

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Yup!

    To the newbies:

    Understand that you can save a TREMENDOUS amount of energy by being in the draft. Conversely, if you are out in the wind (like Vogel was) it takes a lot of energy to go fast. At these speeds, Guo was spending about 75% of the energy that Vogel was at the same speeds. This is how Guo (equally matched to Vogel) was able to have some boost left to come around and win.

    Lee (the Korean woman) simply isn't fast enough to pass either one of them in a drag race. But, giving her 100%, she can hang on their wheels. To illustrate this I'll tell this story:

    At DLV there is a guy that's huge. He's maybe 200+ lbs of muscle. He can go 40+ mph. One night he was at the track doing flying 100s and stuff at over 40mph. There was a 12 or 13 year old girl out there that was fast for her age, but could barely get to maybe 30mph on her own. One person said to her, "Follow Jarick on his flying 100 and see if you can hold his wheel." To everyone's surprise, she did...at over 40mph. That illustrates the power of good drafting. If that were a race situation, she wouldn't have won...but she would have probably gotten 2nd

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    Senior Member Velocirapture's Avatar
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    What an awesome race. worth watching over a couple of times
    "All this talk of climbing is making me feel kinda queasy..." -- Baby Puke

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    I'll be following this thread. As a new trackie who is strong like bull but smart like tractor, I need all the help that I can get

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    Learn how to ride while looking backwards at your opponent (in sprints).

    We had our club champs sprints round on Friday night. I've done a couple of exercises in riding while looking backwards, both through my legs and over my shoulder. I can't ride too straight while doing it yet, but it allowed me to watch my first round opponent (5 of us in grade so semi - best of 1) pulling up in behind me and opening up the gap to get a run at me. So while he was still making room, I gassed it and won by less than a foot. He has more top end than I do and I knew only tactics would beat him, and so I got to race the final and have my rear end handed to me to get second.

    If you need to look forward to keep checking your line, then that is a perfect opportunity for the person behind to jump you.

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    cool! ill follow this with interest coming up to my first racing season

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    If you need to look forward to keep checking your line, then that is a perfect opportunity for the person behind to jump you.
    Yup!

    Even NJsane Phillip and Gregory Bauge have problems doing this.

    If I recall correctly, Shane Perkins caught Njsane Phillip looking forward and jumped him to win the Bronze in the London Olympics.


    https://www.facebook.com/video/video...51135806391578

    It's not that hard to learn.

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    I usually spend a few of my early warm-up laps practicing looking behind me.

    I love the move bobby lea made during the IO points race at LAGP, attacking right as kovalcik got on terms with the breakaway.

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    Senior Member zizou's Avatar
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    Was this the first big meet that the electric derny has been used? Looks a bit strange, particularly with the big shock at the rear.

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zizou View Post
    Was this the first big meet that the electric derny has been used? Looks a bit strange, particularly with the big shock at the rear.
    I think the biggest gripe is the fact that the riders can't hear it coming. But, when I'm a holder for Keirin, I'm always calling the position of the derny to my rider, "Entering 3...Exiting 4...get ready..."

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Uninformed Senior Member
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    I wondered last season with the few match sprints I did, is one position generally preferred to the other? Or does it come down to personal preference?

    Sometimes they just do a coinflip and whoever calls it picks starting position (casual training races).

    That was a very informative video, are there any others in that "series"? I can't seem to find any others on YouTube.

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    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared. View Post
    I wondered last season with the few match sprints I did, is one position generally preferred to the other? Or does it come down to personal preference?

    Sometimes they just do a coinflip and whoever calls it picks starting position (casual training races).

    That was a very informative video, are there any others in that "series"? I can't seem to find any others on YouTube.
    It'll depend somewhat on the track and the type of rider you are. If you are an explosive rider with a huge acceleration, you probably want to be behind. If you are a "top-end" guy who has less acceleration but can hold a very high top-end speed for a long time (maybe you're heavier but very strong), you might race from the front. If you are on a tight track where there is a high penalty distance-wise for riding above the sprinters lane, you might want to race from in front.

    Usually the start position is determined by a coin flip. If it's a best of three format, the first race will be determined by coin flip, the second race will have the opposite start position, and the third race, if it comes down to it, will be a coin flip.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Yup!

    Even NJsane Phillip and Gregory Bauge have problems doing this.

    If I recall correctly, Shane Perkins caught Njsane Phillip looking forward and jumped him to win the Bronze in the London Olympics.


    https://www.facebook.com/video/video...51135806391578

    It's not that hard to learn.
    Much better video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2IYiySN9So
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared. View Post
    I wondered last season with the few match sprints I did, is one position generally preferred to the other? Or does it come down to personal preference?

    Sometimes they just do a coinflip and whoever calls it picks starting position (casual training races).

    That was a very informative video, are there any others in that "series"? I can't seem to find any others on YouTube.
    +1 What Brian said.

    Also, a lot of these rules about tactics apply when the athletes are evenly matched. In national and international competition, in the later rounds it's less about ability and more about tactics being that they are generally evenly matched.

    At the local level, the strongest person can usually pedal themselves out of even the worst situation. So, don't be discouraged if you do everything right and still lose. And on the flip side, don't assume that if you are winning locally that you are doing it right

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Thanks! I looked for this but couldn't find it.

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    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    ...
    Thanks! I looked for this but couldn't find it.
    [video=youtube;F2IYiySN9So]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2IYiySN9So[/ video]
    It took a bit of searching to find it. BTW, if anyone want to get a feel for elite track sprinting from top to bottom, the entire London 2012 sprint tourney is on Youtube, from the qualification 200m TT, to the repechage rounds, to the finals. It's not well organized though, so you may have to search around a bit to find the less popular bits. It's around 2-3 hours of video all told and shows every ride of the tournament.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Further, the key to Flying 200s and Match Sprinting is practice. I see a lot of racers only doing Flying 200s during a sprint tournament as though it were simply some sort of fitness test. The flying 200 is a very technical event and should be practiced. I've seen riders take off 0.5 to a full second off of their times in the SAME DAY after receiving some guidance.

    Good match sprinting prowess comes with time. You have to be comfortable on your bike. You have to be comfortable at various speeds on the track. You don't necessarily need a partner to practice sprinting techniques. It helps to have a relatively empty track and just spend time getting to know its curves at various speeds. Do jump accelerations from various points on the track from various speeds.

    You can punk a stronger rider out by being comfortable on your bike and riding to close to them and pushing them into disadvantageous positions.

    Watch Theo Bos do several things the right way in this sprint, but Hoy was just too strong!

    Watch Bos catch Hoy looking away...but Hoy responds brilliantly with a textbook no-look dive to the sprinters lane (totally legal). Notice how Bos then hits the brakes! Why? Because it's illegal for him to advance his position while off the track! Then watch Bos counter and push Hoy back up track. Lots of things going on here. It's an amazing race.

    (PS: Don't try these advanced techniques until you AND your opponent are skilled enough to do them. You could freak them out and bad things could happen.)


  19. #19
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    All three of those races are superb tactics-wise. In the first, Bos totally catches Hoy looking the wrong way.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Here's how Bos won the first round. Hoy got caught going uptrack in the turns (a nono). There is no way to jump to catch anyone from that position. His bike was turned up and he was going like 2mph. Bos passed on the apron. I would have relegated him but the officials didn't.


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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    In this one, Hoy (a kilo master) goes long and pins Bos on the outside for a FULL 200M! If you do the math, Bos was actually faster for that last lap, but being that he was on the outside, he traveled significantly further and came up short at the end. This tactic is called "Pinning the opponent on your hip" and not letting him pass forcing him to travel further.


  22. #22
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Here's how Bos won the first round. Hoy got caught going uptrack in the turns (a nono). There is no way to jump to catch anyone from that position. His bike was turned up and he was going like 2mph. Bos passed on the apron. I would have relegated him but the officials didn't.

    [video=youtube;oI3qWekkYtI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI3qWekkYtI[/vi deo]
    About the apron thing... I think Bos was not relegated because he was in the middle of the corner and his dive took him off-track, then he got back onto the track surface as soon as he could. He didn't intentionally use the apron to come underneath someone in the sprinters lane. But it's a judgement call by the officials. Not to mention a decent display of bike handling...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  23. #23
    Senior Member Quinn8it's Avatar
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    The biggest mistake I see in beginner and masters match sprinting is guys trying to replicate tactics that they see Elites use, without actually knowing what they are trying to accomplish with them.
    If you are going to try to force an outcome, you had better know that it's the outcome that will give you the best shot, not just Agressive riding for the sake of doing it.

    I'm a Kilo Racer- if I qualify faster than you in the 200m, why would you ride me slow at the rail all the way into the last lap? Unless you just like seeing a fast standing 250m from behind!

    After losing- people will tell him what a great job of "controlling the race" he did..

    If you are a slower qualifier- you need to know what your strengths are, and hopefully your opponents weakness.. There is little a slower rider can do in a mis-matched round against a faster opponent..

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    About the apron thing... I think Bos was not relegated because he was in the middle of the corner and his dive took him off-track, then he got back onto the track surface as soon as he could. He didn't intentionally use the apron to come underneath someone in the sprinters lane. But it's a judgement call by the officials. Not to mention a decent display of bike handling...
    Yeah, I'd argue that he wasn't forced to the apron, he dove on to it. But, smarter folks than me let it slide

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
    The biggest mistake I see in beginner and masters match sprinting is guys trying to replicate tactics that they see Elites use, without actually knowing what they are trying to accomplish with them.
    If you are going to try to force an outcome, you had better know that it's the outcome that will give you the best shot, not just Agressive riding for the sake of doing it.

    I'm a Kilo Racer- if I qualify faster than you in the 200m, why would you ride me slow at the rail all the way into the last lap? Unless you just like seeing a fast standing 250m from behind!

    After losing- people will tell him what a great job of "controlling the race" he did..

    If you are a slower qualifier- you need to know what your strengths are, and hopefully your opponents weakness.. There is little a slower rider can do in a mis-matched round against a faster opponent..
    +1 Yup

    Rule #1 of match sprinting: Have a Plan

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    Quote Originally Posted by carleton View Post
    Watch Bos catch Hoy looking away...but Hoy responds brilliantly with a textbook no-look dive to the sprinters lane (totally legal). Notice how Bos then hits the brakes! Why? Because it's illegal for him to advance his position while off the track! Then watch Bos counter and push Hoy back up track. Lots of things going on here. It's an amazing race.
    This one is a little lost on me. Wouldn't Hoy have been the one relegated because he came down into a sprinter's lane that was already occupied by Bos (got there first)? Or because Hoy was ahead of Bos, would that have been considered "having a clear lead" or whatever the wording is. Some of this officiating can seem so subjective.

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