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  1. #1
    Senior Member steve-in-kville's Avatar
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    Paleo/caveman vs. Mediterranean diet

    First off, I was following a Paleo-type diet for 7 months last year. Lost 20 pounds. Thought it was the do all, end all of diets. Only thing is, I would often send myself into starvation mode as I could not consume enough calories. My commute on the bike would leave me crushed, heavy legs, stiffness, etc.

    I'm a big reader, especially about cultural dietary lifestyles. I recently tried a whole grain, no white sugar, no white oil way of eating and I feel much better, but I am not loosing weight. I actually gained a few pounds. I would suppose its as close to a Mediterranean diet as I could get.

    So without starting a flame war, what should I be doing? Revamp my Paleo way of eating or try something different? Or am I over thinking all this?? I welcome any comments or feedback.

    ETA: I do believe in the calories in/calories out scenario. Just sayin'.
    Last edited by steve-in-kville; 04-10-15 at 01:47 PM.
    Best regards - steve
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    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    I've been using the CICO diet for the past two months. I've lost a little over 8 kg in that time. So far it seems to work for me.


    You might consider joining the Calorie Tracking website of your choice ...
    Calorie Tracking Websites

  3. #3
    Senior Member Dunbar's Avatar
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    How many miles do you ride per week? You could always track your calories consumed eating paleo and supplement with healthy carbs to get enough calories so that you're not starving.

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    Senior Member Pistard's Avatar
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    Mediterranean + 1, also eat less , drink more water , and move more. simple in theory...

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    Senior Member GravelMN's Avatar
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    I have a problem with simple carbs, they really mess with my appetite and energy levels. In the past and again recently, I went low-carb (not no-carb but no grains, starchy vegetables, high GI fruits or added sweeteners) with lots of low GI vegetables and fruits (mainly berries). Works great for weight control but not so great for hard training or fast rides. I was just fine on 2-3 hour LSD rides but interval work bonked me. I've begun to embrace the right fuel for the job at hand methodology, adding in some grains and higher GI fruits the morning before hard rides or interval workouts and using more carbs (mainly granola bars or dried fruit) on the bike for rides longer than one hour. I under ate on my 4+ hour ride today in some gusty winds and came up short, but I'd only taken in about 200 kCal during the ride (at the half-way point) in the form of a granola bar that had nuts, oats and dried fruit with just a bit of peanut butter candy glaze on the bottom. If I would have been smart enough to down two more, one at the 1/4 and one at the 3/4 points, I'd have probably been OK as it was just the last 10 miles that sucked and I never completely bonked, just ran low on energy.

    So basically, I'm low carb with supplemental carbs when warranted by the activity planned for that day.

  6. #6
    A Roadie Forever 79pmooney's Avatar
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    My one liner for the night: I"m sure you have heard the adage "You are what you eat." So, would you rather be a paleo caveman or a Mediterranean? To my mind, those Mediterraneans have a lot more fun! (They also eat pretty well. Spain, Italy and Greece, three countries known for good food.)

    Ben

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    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    Count calories. It's really that simple. What makes it more complicated though is finding a way to eat less than you use while still not feeling hungry all the time. This is where all the different diets come in. Some people respond differently to different diets and it's really up to you to find the correct one. Keep in mind that you have plenty of time to experiment, for example a month at a time for one particular diet.

    I do an intermittent fasting with pretty basic healthy diet and for me it's working well. I had to eat 3500Kcal yesterday (2 hours of XC skiing really ramps up your energy expenditure) and I was absolutely stuffed. So much food... But the fasting thing has made my stomach smaller so I can eat less and still be full.

  8. #8
    RR3
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    Calories in and calories out.

    Just consume 5.2 grams of table sugar per Kg of body mass.

    It is killer.

    A "diet" should rebuild your metabolism.

    Certain types of food and some carbs will increase inflammation and are the match that lights the disease progression of type 2 diabetes, asthma, alzheimers, and other autoimmune diseases......just sayin. Endurance athletes are particularly susceptible to these illnesses especially those fond of Vitamin M.

    Maybe have a look at this book

    Grain Brain by David Perlmutter, MD


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    RR3
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    Steve.......hope to see at a PA 200Km....not sure with K-vill is but it might be close to Quakertown...anyways

    I lost 60+ pounds in a short period of time by mixing Paleo with bouts of Ketogenic diets. One key element that you might be missing is proper exercise duration and intensity. It is best to keep it aerobic on a weight loss program for those who are fat or where fat (me). I know this is not a popular view but for those who are really overweight, you have to be careful with the intensity during weight loss. You also have to be disciplined not to over do it. This is really hard in Pennsylvania where they put roads straight up 15% ridges. It is like every ride is an interval session. Stick to the river valleys on most rides would be my suggestion.

    Read up on polarized training.. It emphasizes relatively low intensity rides for 80% of the rides and only advocates high intensity for one ride out of 5. Most of the rides would be considered junk miles by Roadies BUT they are easy on your endocrine system and do not leave you wasted allowing quicker recovery. This low level burns mostly fat but of course it requires a time commitment....probably need to ride 5-6 days per week with one long ride....maybe 12 hours minimum total per week. If you only have say 5 hours, high intensity would be a better approach. Naturally, my suggestion does not apply to Roadies trying to trim that last 10 pounds and who have years of serious miles in their legs. If you have the time to ride Brevets, try riding them slow and not eating too much at controls. Eastern PA has a 200K every month and there are plenty of riders to go along with you.

    2014 Medicine & Science in Ultra-Endurance Sports Conference Report

  10. #10
    Senior Member steve-in-kville's Avatar
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    Thanks for the great replies and thanks for not flaming me. I'm just commuting right now on the bike plus some intense walks as I am gonna to a 5K walk/run in a few weeks with some folks from work. I believe if I up my game and do a longer fun ride on the weekends, I could do 75+ miles/week.
    Best regards - steve
    RUSA #10428

  11. #11
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    The Mediterranean diet is one of the few diets that has been proven to improve health and out-comes with legitimate, verifiable science... But two things that concern me about it:

    1) Nobody really knows what it is or why it is healthy. Is it because of the absence of processed foods? Or, maybe the predominance of whole grains and fruits & vege's? Or is it the olive oil? Or is it because it s a "Balanced Diet" that includes most all major food groups? And, how to do you mix and balance all those different pieces? There is no official answer to that question.
    2) It is not shown to be an effective weight loss diet -- partly because it is neither low-fat not low-calorie.

    But, anyway you look at it, most everybody would agree that it is far better in every regard than the Standard American Diet.
    --------------------------------------
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    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    The Mediterranean diet is one of the few diets that has been proven to improve health and out-comes with legitimate, verifiable science... But two things that concern me about it:

    1) Nobody really knows what it is or why it is healthy. Is it because of the absence of processed foods? Or, maybe the predominance of whole grains and fruits & vege's? Or is it the olive oil? Or is it because it s a "Balanced Diet" that includes most all major food groups? And, how to do you mix and balance all those different pieces? There is no official answer to that question.
    2) It is not shown to be an effective weight loss diet -- partly because it is neither low-fat not low-calorie.

    But, anyway you look at it, most everybody would agree that it is far better in every regard than the Standard American Diet.
    One thing might be the extensive use of olive oil. Here in Norther Europe studies have been done where people started using canola oil more and more frequently and health benefits similiar than those linked to the mediterranean diet were observed. Canola oil has almost identical fat profile with olive oil.

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    RR3
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    If we do know what the mediterranean diet is, how can it be scientifically validated/verified?

    The mediterranean diet has exercise in it..walking or riding a bike to the store...it also has a much healthier source of dietary fats (fish, nuts, eggs and olive oil) and carbs (vegetables) unlike americans who favor "evil" corn oil, evil corn syrup ("sugar" in soda and some so-called fruit juices), and grains. With the amount of fish and shellfish in mediterranean diets, they get a sufficient amount of iodine unlike most americans who are deficient in this critical dietary element.....this is another missing link to the validated studies.

    From my travels to those areas, the grains that I have seen are rice and polenta with limited amounts of wheat. IF a meal includes pasta, it is a small/tiny side portion. Vegetables are prominent as is wine and raw milk cheeses from goat and sheep. I am surprised when I read news or internet articles telling readers to eat whole grain breads like the Southern Europeans. I have not seen whole grain breads commonly there. Mostly white but not eated in great amounts.

    Another element that is missing from the discussion? Time. I have been stunned with the amount of time that Southerner Europeans will take for a business lunch. They relax and enjoy the companionship and food. Slowly. A company owner flew me and another person from Switzerland to Southern Italy on his private jet for a one day work assignment that should have required two days and thus, our work plates were full and never envisioned stopping for a 2 hour lunch with wine. He thought I was absolutely nuts suggesting a working type lunch. I have seen these relaxed meals often and I think that this vital aspect of their diet combined with exercise and not over-eating has been overlooked by "science" pushing grains back up the food pyramid. I do not know if time has changed their customs as it has been around 6-8 years since I did much travels.

    Since my first visits to those regions more than 30 years ago, diets on a collective basis may have changed with the prosperity. I wonder really what is a mediterranean diet anymore other than it is the diet of the poor who eat simple, unprocessed foods with lots of good fats shared amongst family and and friends while getting some reasonable exercise per day.

    Primary Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease with a Mediterranean Diet | David Perlmutter M.D.

  14. #14
    Senior Member steve-in-kville's Avatar
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    I appreciate all of the above comments! Please keep 'em coming.
    Best regards - steve
    RUSA #10428

  15. #15
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    Mediterranean diet= thousands of years old, and has sustained numerous great empires and civilizations all the way up to this day. Diet is balanced and includes a wide variety of foods. Has produced some of the healthiest and longest living people. Freedom to choose any food that you enjoy eating without feeling guilty about breaking some silly rules imposed by some diet guru.

    Modern paleo diet= about 10 years old. Total opposite of extreme veganism. Has a cult-like following. A fad diet which is based more on theories, assumptions and fallacies then anything else. Very restrictive and has way too many do's and dont's, too many rules about what is ok to eat and what is not ok to eat.
    Modern paleos fail to realize that our modern meat and fish which they buy at a grocery store is different from natural meat of long time ago...What happens if some modern paleo finds themselves in a situation where all that's available to eat is white rice, bread, potatoes and legumes ??..Are you going to refuse and starve yourself, just because some "paleo guru" said that those foods are a forbidden fruit and you're going to die if you touch them ??

    The old paleo diet= includes eating ANYTHING that will sustain life and that includes STARCHY ROOTS ,SEEDS AND GRAINS HIGH IN CARBS, not just meat and fat... Unsustainable in the long run with large populations of people. A lot of animals become extinct as a result of over hunting.
    Impossible to follow a traditional paleo unless you live off-grid and do your own hunting, fishing and food production.

  16. #16
    Senior Member steve-in-kville's Avatar
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    ^^^ well written, makes sense. I was sold on the Paleo concept about a year ago. The "guru" who sold me it wrote a book and did seminars, etc. Bought the book eventually. Come to find that the Paleo crowd was also the Crossfit crowd, which is a cult following, IMO. The past few months have left me second guessing, maybe that whole grains are not evil, rice is okay and high fat isn't the answer to all health issues. Hence the reason for my thread.

    To each there own, but I do appreciate your post!
    Best regards - steve
    RUSA #10428

  17. #17
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-in-kville View Post
    ^^^ well written, makes sense. I was sold on the Paleo concept about a year ago. The "guru" who sold me it wrote a book and did seminars, etc. Bought the book eventually. Come to find that the Paleo crowd was also the Crossfit crowd, which is a cult following, IMO. The past few months have left me second guessing, maybe that whole grains are not evil, rice is okay and high fat isn't the answer to all health issues. Hence the reason for my thread.

    To each there own, but I do appreciate your post!
    For me, it's more about balance ... I need protein, fat, and carbs plus a whole range of vitamins and minerals.

    The calorie tracking sites I mentioned, not only help you track your calories and make sure you're eating less than you're burning ... they also track nutrients, so you can see if you're a bit low in something.

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    RR3
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    Mediterranean diet= thousands of years old, and has sustained numerous great empires and civilizations all the way up to this day. Diet is balanced and includes a wide variety of foods. Has produced some of the healthiest and longest living people. Freedom to choose any food that you enjoy eating without feeling guilty about breaking some silly rules imposed by some diet guru.

    Modern paleo diet= about 10 years old. Total opposite of extreme veganism. Has a cult-like following. A fad diet which is based more on theories, assumptions and fallacies then anything else. Very restrictive and has way too many do's and dont's, too many rules about what is ok to eat and what is not ok to eat.
    Modern paleos fail to realize that our modern meat and fish which they buy at a grocery store is different from natural meat of long time ago...What happens if some modern paleo finds themselves in a situation where all that's available to eat is white rice, bread, potatoes and legumes ??..Are you going to refuse and starve yourself, just because some "paleo guru" said that those foods are a forbidden fruit and you're going to die if you touch them ??

    The old paleo diet= includes eating ANYTHING that will sustain life and that includes STARCHY ROOTS ,SEEDS AND GRAINS HIGH IN CARBS, not just meat and fat... Unsustainable in the long run with large populations of people. A lot of animals become extinct as a result of over hunting.
    Impossible to follow a traditional paleo unless you live off-grid and do your own hunting, fishing and food production.
    I dunno Wolf

    I kill my own meat.

  19. #19
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    Paleo shmaleo What's in a name?......nothing

    Millions of folks in affluent societies around the world, especially those who have difficulty managing their weight, have adapted to a low carb, high fat, moderate protein way of eating with great success.

    It's only a fad to people who have no interest in changing their own dietary beliefs.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Spld cyclist's Avatar
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    Lately I've read (from sources I think are credible) that what makes paleo diets help some people lose weight is not the fat, but the protein. Not for some magical metabolic reason, but just because protein is the most satiating macronutrient. Fat is less satiating than protein, and has more than twice the energy density than protein or carbs, so eating lots of fat may not be the best strategy. Carbs are the least satiating of the three, but if you feel like crap when you limit them then try to keep them in your diet.

    You might try leaning more toward the Mediterranean diet than paleo, and keeping a substantial amount of carbs in your diet, but replacing some of the carbs with extra protein. Still eat a moderate amount of fat, especially olive oil and omega-3. Maybe something like 40% carbs, 30% protein, and 30% fat.

    (As an aside, I just did a quick search for macronutrient ratios for Mediterranean diets, and they're all over the map. So what does it really mean? )
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  21. #21
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spld cyclist View Post
    Lately I've read (from sources I think are credible) that what makes paleo diets help some people lose weight is not the fat, but the protein. Not for some magical metabolic reason, but just because protein is the most satiating macronutrient. Fat is less satiating than protein, and has more than twice the energy density than protein or carbs, so eating lots of fat may not be the best strategy. Carbs are the least satiating of the three, but if you feel like crap when you limit them then try to keep them in your diet.

    You might try leaning more toward the Mediterranean diet than paleo, and keeping a substantial amount of carbs in your diet, but replacing some of the carbs with extra protein. Still eat a moderate amount of fat, especially olive oil and omega-3. Maybe something like 40% carbs, 30% protein, and 30% fat.

    (As an aside, I just did a quick search for macronutrient ratios for Mediterranean diets, and they're all over the map. So what does it really mean? )
    Yet, [most] advocates of the Mediterranean Diet do not advocate it in order to either "lose weight" nor to "feel better". They, and the evidence supporting it deal mostly with overall health and mostly cardiovascular health.

    The disparity is true of most lifestyle solutions: people want to know what is "BEST" without bothering to consider what 'best' is and, that 'best' is relative to what you want to accomplish...

    For example: Exercise will accomplish certain things that diet cannot -- and vice-versa. But yet people still debate which is "best". And, the same is true of different diets and nutrients: Is protein "better" than carbs? It's a stupid question. They do different things...

    But, that said, the fact remains that an apple is always better than an orange, and I will fight anybody to the death who disagrees!
    --------------------------------------
    bikes: 1992 Cannondale R500, 2012 Trek DS 8.5, 2008 LeMond Poprad

  22. #22
    Senior Member Spld cyclist's Avatar
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    "Best" also depends on each individual's physiology, tastes, and cultural setting. Personally, I like carbs and have zero problems with maintaining weight or health when eating plenty of them. Paleo has zero appeal to me. That doesn't mean I recommend that anyone else do the same as I do. Others may do better with more protein or fat. I don't think there is any truth in absolute statements that carbs, fats, grains, meat, etc. are evil and should be avoided at all costs (except for individuals that have a real intolerance to certain foods).
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  23. #23
    Senior Member steve-in-kville's Avatar
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    I am enjoying this thread. A lot of common sense coming from experienced riders. Keep the replies coming.
    Best regards - steve
    RUSA #10428

  24. #24
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spld cyclist View Post
    "Best" also depends on each individual's physiology, tastes, and cultural setting. Personally, I like carbs and have zero problems with maintaining weight or health when eating plenty of them. Paleo has zero appeal to me. That doesn't mean I recommend that anyone else do the same as I do. Others may do better with more protein or fat. I don't think there is any truth in absolute statements that carbs, fats, grains, meat, etc. are evil and should be avoided at all costs (except for individuals that have a real intolerance to certain foods).
    +1

    There are no "bad" foods ... often it is just a matter of too much of a good thing.

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    Body type plays probably plays a part in which way of eating you might choose

    I am not the 6' 150# ectomorph who can live on pie and never gain an ounce

    I'm the 5'10 188# endomorph who fights the least to stay at that weight...which is still 20, over by eating fatty foods

    So maybe

    ectos fuel best on carbs...mesos on protein...and endos on fats... and find their own balance

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