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Thread: Eat to Live

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    Senior Member jennings780's Avatar
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    Eat to Live

    Somehow we got on this topic on the Road Cycling board and thought a more extensive disussion might be appropriate on this board.

    Ever since high school I struggled with my weight. After I graduated from law school I was about 185lbs. Over the next 8 years I gained 3-5lbs a year until about 2.5 years ago I got weighed for new life insurance and I was 212lbs (I am a bit over 5'9"). I did exercise a few times a week and thought I at healthy (rarely ate red meat, at low fat foods, etc.). Somehow I came across the book "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrman M.D. who is an internal medicine specialist who does a lot of weight loss treatment. I read the book in one sitting - it is actually quite facinating. There is a lot of nutrional education in the book. Over the next six weeks I lost 22lbs. In the first six months I lost 45lbs (to 167lbs). For the past 2+ years I have stayed between 164 - 167lbs with literally no effort. What the book prescribes is not a diet, but a new way of life.

    Here's the premise of the book: eat foods that are nutrient rich, meaning that they have a high content of nutrients per calorie. High nutrient foods (pretty much in order): green leafy veggies, other veggies, fruits, beans, whole grains. You can eat these in unlimited quantities. I did not/do not "diet." I do eat unlimited quantities of food. It is fantastic. Of course, i don't eat meat anymore or any dairy or snack foods or processed foods. But I feel healthier than I did when I was 20 (I am 35) and went from not fitting into my 36" pants to having my 32" jeans hang off me. My cholesterol went from 210 to 126.

    My brother read Eat to Live and lost 65lbs in 5 months. My wife went from a size 12 to a size 6 in 4 months. Others that have read the book and actually eaten as Dr. Fuhrman suggests have lost similar amounts of weight. There are other long term health benefits other than weight loss that are fantastic as well (chance of many cancers, heart disease and type II diabetes are greatly reduced - my Dr. told me that if I eat as I do now for the rest of my life my chance of heart disease is about 1 in 1000 and my chance of diabetes is about zero).

    Anywho, for anyone who exercises, tries to watch what they eat but can't get to the weight they want I would suggest buying Dr. Fuhrman's book and trying it for six weeks and see what happens.

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    Focus on the future alison_in_oh's Avatar
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    Yay, sounds like a great success story. I really like Dr. Weil's Eating Well for Optimal Health, it doesn't focus on weight but rather on all-around health and healthful foods, as well as the whole wonderful process of eating. Mmm, food. He, too is all about nutritious, nutrient-dense foods and almost anything in moderation. He focuses on a modified Mediterranean diet as the ideal.

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    Senior Member jennings780's Avatar
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    I have read Dr. Weil's Eating for Optimal Health. I do like it a lot. Also very educational. Great book. If you liked Dr. Weil's book you would also really like Dr. Fuhrman's book.

    I also got the "Breathing" CDs by Dr. Weil. They are great. I practice his breathing techniques a few times a day and I have found them to be very useful in helping to control stress and anxiety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jennings780
    Somehow we got on this topic on the Road Cycling board and thought a more extensive disussion might be appropriate on this board.

    Ever since high school I struggled with my weight. After I graduated from law school I was about 185lbs. Over the next 8 years I gained 3-5lbs a year until about 2.5 years ago I got weighed for new life insurance and I was 212lbs (I am a bit over 5'9"). I did exercise a few times a week and thought I at healthy (rarely ate red meat, at low fat foods, etc.). Somehow I came across the book "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrman M.D. who is an internal medicine specialist who does a lot of weight loss treatment. I read the book in one sitting - it is actually quite facinating. There is a lot of nutrional education in the book. Over the next six weeks I lost 22lbs. In the first six months I lost 45lbs (to 167lbs). For the past 2+ years I have stayed between 164 - 167lbs with literally no effort. What the book prescribes is not a diet, but a new way of life.

    Here's the premise of the book: eat foods that are nutrient rich, meaning that they have a high content of nutrients per calorie. High nutrient foods (pretty much in order): green leafy veggies, other veggies, fruits, beans, whole grains. You can eat these in unlimited quantities. I did not/do not "diet." I do eat unlimited quantities of food. It is fantastic. Of course, i don't eat meat anymore or any dairy or snack foods or processed foods. But I feel healthier than I did when I was 20 (I am 35) and went from not fitting into my 36" pants to having my 32" jeans hang off me. My cholesterol went from 210 to 126.

    My brother read Eat to Live and lost 65lbs in 5 months. My wife went from a size 12 to a size 6 in 4 months. Others that have read the book and actually eaten as Dr. Fuhrman suggests have lost similar amounts of weight. There are other long term health benefits other than weight loss that are fantastic as well (chance of many cancers, heart disease and type II diabetes are greatly reduced - my Dr. told me that if I eat as I do now for the rest of my life my chance of heart disease is about 1 in 1000 and my chance of diabetes is about zero).

    Anywho, for anyone who exercises, tries to watch what they eat but can't get to the weight they want I would suggest buying Dr. Fuhrman's book and trying it for six weeks and see what happens.
    yes this is what we call a "vegan" DIET Not many people are up for this but I hope his book doesn't make it seem like eating meat or dairy is a bad thing.

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    Senior Member jennings780's Avatar
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    The book doesn't say that you have to give up meat or dairy. It suggests that you eat meat as a condiment rather than as a main course and try to limit your meat and dairy intake to 10% of your calories or less.

    I was a big meat eater. I decided to try to giving up meat and dairy and really liked how I felt after a few weeks. I don't think having meat now and then is a big deal. I do think that dairy is pretty unhealthy and that we are not really designed to digest dairy and that a lot of people I know who have given up dairy are surprised at how good they feel later.

    It is true that in cultures where few of the regular caloric intake comes from meat and dairy their incidence of disease is lower. I won't go into all the statistics on these sort of things at this point.

    Of course how you eat is your "diet" - was trying to make the point that its not a diet that you go on just to lose weight - its a lifestyle change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jennings780
    The book doesn't say that you have to give up meat or dairy. It suggests that you eat meat as a condiment rather than as a main course and try to limit your meat and dairy intake to 10% of your calories or less.

    I was a big meat eater. I decided to try to giving up meat and dairy and really liked how I felt after a few weeks. I don't think having meat now and then is a big deal. I do think that dairy is pretty unhealthy and that we are not really designed to digest dairy and that a lot of people I know who have given up dairy are surprised at how good they feel later.

    It is true that in cultures where few of the regular caloric intake comes from meat and dairy their incidence of disease is lower. I won't go into all the statistics on these sort of things at this point.

    Of course how you eat is your "diet" - was trying to make the point that its not a diet that you go on just to lose weight - its a lifestyle change.
    no no, I wasn't saying that what you eat is your diet. What you explained as your diet is known as a vegan diet. But it doesn't matter. When I started to try and lose weight my red meat intake way waaaaaay down. But I still ate and still eat to this day a lot of chicken and turkey. A lot of people say that meat is only good for iron but a lot of people don't know that both meat and dairy products have good amounts of protein. And when you're losing weight, more protein will help build all those muscles you've been working out.

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    wonderer, wanderer gonesh9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheebahmunkey
    yes this is what we call a "vegan" DIET Not many people are up for this but I hope his book doesn't make it seem like eating meat or dairy is a bad thing.
    It's very common for a doctor to suggest cutting out all meat and dairy or at least as much as possible when you have cholesterol/blood pressure problems, as well as weight issues. Of course you can eat meat/dairy and be healthy, but when there are health issues, they are almost always the first that you need to cut down on. I've never heard a doctor suggest cutting down on fruits, vegetables, and whole grains before, besides the atkins crew. That's because they are proven healthy foods.

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    RIP Shiznaz. DoshKel's Avatar
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    I'm confused. He says that you can eat those nutrient rich foods (beans, whole grains, fruit...etc) in unlimited quantities. Why does he say it like this? It is possible to gain weight on these foods if you eat a LOT of them...so why does he say it like this? These foods still have calories right? Does he elaborate that there is a stopping point to eating as much as you want of these foods? Sorry...that statement confused me a little.

    Cheers.

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    Senior Member jennings780's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoshKel
    I'm confused. He says that you can eat those nutrient rich foods (beans, whole grains, fruit...etc) in unlimited quantities. Why does he say it like this? It is possible to gain weight on these foods if you eat a LOT of them...so why does he say it like this? These foods still have calories right? Does he elaborate that there is a stopping point to eating as much as you want of these foods? Sorry...that statement confused me a little.
    I guess it is theoretically possible to eat fruits veggies beans and whole grains and gain weight. If you were to use oils, margarine and fatty dressings. If you prepare the foods naturally (or near naturally) it is really really hard not to lose weight even if you eat these foods in large quantities. These foods are high in fiber which take longer to digest and make you feel full longer. After a while your hunger isn't a sharp pain but instead is a dull, far away ache due to not having big blood sugar swings from eating.

    Anywho, these types of foods are so bulky and generally low in calories that its really hard not to lose weight (if you are overweight) eating them (and a variety) to your heart's desire. That's what the books says and it has worked for me and the five other people I have had read the book and eat that way.

    Its not the easiest way to eat. I buy most of my food at Wild Oats and Whole Foods. I go to a local produce stands on weekends and buy a ton of fruits and veggies. When I go out to eat my choices are very limited. I do enjoy eating as much now as I ever have but it took awhile to get used to and I have to plan ahead if I eat out.

    My general rule on food is that I eat fruits, veggies and beans plus any other food with at least 4 grams of fiber per serving (a serving being at least 100 calories and no more than 250 calories) and contains no animal products. Eat this way and you don't have to worry about portion control. Just eat.

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    The Question Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonesh9
    It's very common for a doctor to suggest cutting out all meat and dairy or at least as much as possible when you have cholesterol/blood pressure problems, as well as weight issues. Of course you can eat meat/dairy and be healthy, but when there are health issues, they are almost always the first that you need to cut down on. I've never heard a doctor suggest cutting down on fruits, vegetables, and whole grains before, besides the atkins crew. That's because they are proven healthy foods.
    cutting down on and cutting out are very different. And yes I've heard of doctors telling people to stop eating fruits and whole grains. Fruits becasue of diabetes (which has a strong association with obesity) and whole grains b/c of allergies.

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    wonderer, wanderer gonesh9's Avatar
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    O.k.

    But the truth is that meat and dairy are usually high on the list of foods to cut down on when you have cholesterol or blood pressure issues. To me this definitely says something about meat and dairy in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonesh9
    O.k.

    But the truth is that meat and dairy are usually high on the list of foods to cut down on when you have cholesterol or blood pressure issues. To me this definitely says something about meat and dairy in general.
    yeah it says like anything else we eat, don't abuse meat and dairy consumption. Cholesterol only clogs arteries with the help of saturated fat. For instance, shrimp is high in cholesterol but not high in saturated fat. This means that we don't have to worry about the cholesterol content in shrimp as much as we would in a red meat. Blood pressure abnormalities are caused by sodium levels aren't they? Anything with high levels of sodium can be said to give people blood pressure problems could it not (I'm really asking as I don't know too much about it).

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    semifreddo amartuerer 'nother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonesh9
    But the truth is that meat and dairy are usually high on the list of foods to cut down on when you have cholesterol or blood pressure issues. To me this definitely says something about meat and dairy in general.
    The slightly distorted truth, perhaps.

    First: cholesterol and blood pressure issues are not one and the same and in fact are quite different, so it's inappropriate to lump them together for purposes of discussing diet.

    Second: meat and dairy are not necessarily on "the list" . . . certain kinds, no doubt. I can't speak about cholesterol, but I can about high blood pressure, which I have and am being treated for. The only meats that are on my restricted list are processed meats, which are processed with added sodium (e.g. lunchmeats, smoked/dried/cured meats, etc.). Dairy-wise, it's some cheeses and buttermilk (again: added sodium).

    But it's not because these are some vague bogeyman foods with "something" wrong with them, it's because they tend to have a lot of sodium specifically, which has been linked to high blood pressure. But the problem is, a lot of non-dairy and non-meat products also have a lot of sodium, and they are also on "the list". To me, that says very little about meat and dairy in general.

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    Senior Member jennings780's Avatar
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    After reading quite a few books on nutrition and health I have become really angry at the American medical community and the USDA and the food manufacturers. Much of what we have been told about health and nutrition by our doctors, the government and from food product marketing is wrong or distorted.

    A few facts: (1) If you have heart problems and you switch to the diet suggested by the American Heart Association your heart problems will slow down but still progress. If you were to switch to a vegan diet your heart disease would likely stop and would probably reverse. This has been proven by Dr. Dean Ornish at UCLA and confirmed in numerous studies, including ones at the Cleveland Clinic and Mayo Clinic. I asked my doctor about this at my last checkup. He said that these studies were correct and that changing to a vegan, whole foods diet would stop and reverse heart disease in most cases. I asked him if he recommended that to his patients with heart disease and to those with a family history of heart disease. He said he usually does not because he can't get his patients to take their Lipitor everyday let alone eat a vegan diet.

    (2) If you have type II diabetes and eat as the American Diabetes Assoc recommends you will likely continue to have diabetes but you will get it under control. If you were to switch to a vegan whole foods diet your diabetes would likely be gone within six months. This conclusion has been confirmed by a study by the Physicians Committe for Responsible Medicine. My father in law, who has diabetes, called the nutrition and diet consultation hotline for the American Diabetes Assoc and asked them about this. They confirmed that if he switched to a vegan whole foods diet his diabetes would probably be cured within 6 months. They did recommend that he do this under Dr. supervision. He asked them why they didn't suggest such a diet instead of one that would not cure him - the response was that noone would do it.

    (3) The current recommendation by the National Cholesterol Education Program and the American Heart Association is that total Cholesteral be kept at 200 or less and 30% or less of calories from fat. Yet 35% of patients with heart disease have total cholesterol between 150 and 200 and in a leading study the average cholesterol level of heart attack patients was 209. Yet, the diets recommended by these organizations will not reduce cholesterol below 150. Why? Because they don't think anyone would follow the recommedations that meat, dairy, most processed food, etc. be cut from the American diet.

    I have a lot more facts and data I could share if anyone is interested. This is not crazy info that is being put forth by PETA people and animal lovers. Much of the data above comes from a paper published by the head of cardiology at the Cleveland Clinic. My personal doctor who is an assistant professor as Washington University Medical School (the #2 Med School in the U.S. according to US News & World Report) has confirmed all of the above.

    The conclusion? The so-called "healthy" diets proposed by the USDA, the American Heart Assoc, the American Cancer Assoc the American Diabetes Assoc are too moderate and moderation is killing us. And we are fat. Two of my friends told me last night (went to a concert) that I am too skinny. That is ridiculous. I am 5'10" 166lbs. My BMI is 24 which is high end of normal. It is our perception that is skewed. We are so used to fat and overweight people now that we think it is normal. As a culture we are so used to eating unhealthly that we think eating chicken and rice and low fat pretzels and drinking milk is healthy. We are being lied to because those with information think we are weak and cannot make our own choices.

    I am interested to see the revised USDA food pyramid being released today. All indications are that it will be an improvement and stress fruits and veggies and legumes more and that the role of meat, dairy and oils will be reduced. Also, the grains section will stress "whole grains." We'll see.

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    fredelicious mini-masher overthere's Avatar
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    Reading your post, I went to the site and read samples of his book, and I'm going to try it myself; I'm picking up the book tomorrow. Thanks for your detailed and informative posts! I'm not overweight, or have any particular health problems, but all those studies,well, it just makes sense to pay attention to it!

    Also, I see what's happening to friends and family around me. One sister on the low carb Atkins diet has just had her 3rd surgery for thyroid cancer. My other sister is overweight, and has vertigo and chest pains. My niece suffers from asthma, eczema and allergies. My brother has hives, insomnia, bad eating habits and gets winded walking in the neighborhood. Friends are overweight and are so unhappy about it and complaining about it. In fact, from being on this forum, I actually looked around at my collegues, and usually I don't think about their size, but was really shocked at how truly heavy so many were! And now, unfortunately (or not, I'm not sure) I'm noticing how large people are. I just grew used to it, and it didn't seem unusual or noticable before.

    Anyway, I'm on my second day of eating greens and no bread/pasta/dairy. Not easy, but I do feel 'cleaner' if that makes sense. Thank goodness I have lots of ripe tomatos, eggplants and peppers in my garden!

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    Senior Member AnthonyG's Avatar
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    Nutrient dense foods are healthy? --- Absolutely!


    Green vegetables and fruit are the highest nutrient foods? -- Now that part is just wishful thinking!

    Organic animal fats and organ meats are THE most nutrient dense foods out there.

    See http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/index.html

    It's very important to consume fat, extra virgin olive oil if you like with your vegetables in order to maximise their nutrient content. http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html lots of good articles here and see the one called Digestion and Absorption of Food.

    Buying organic produce is also very important. This doesn't get mentioned enough. Factory farmed vegetables just don't have enough nutrients in them any more.

    Here's a general article on vegetarianism, http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/2/vegetarian.htm

    Ahh and the other thing is that Vegans seem to jump on the cholesterol bandwagon because it suits there point of view but you haven't read ANY evidence that proves cholesterol is harmful. Find some for us if you like but let me give you a tip. It doesn't exist. See, http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndi...s_cholest.html

    Regards, Anthony
    Last edited by AnthonyG; 07-21-05 at 08:03 AM.

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    Thanks for the info jennings780. I had once heard about this book from someone else and was interested in getting it, but somehnow forgot about it. Thank you for remindind me....I picked it up yesterday and will start reading it ASAP.
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecake View Post
    - it's pretty well established that Hitler was an *******.

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    Senior Member Metieval's Avatar
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    I broke down and bought a used book off amazon tonight.

    I guess my main question would be I really don't need to lose many pounds. Will this book still be benificial?

    I am 32 an 5'9" @ 165 pounds. maybe a bit flabby, but I should be well toned in a couple months of riding. I would imagine I would stay around 160 lbs but it would be nice to go back to a 30-31" waist instead of this 32"

    ohh and to have extra energy to burn would be really great.

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    Senior Member juf2m's Avatar
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    I don't know.....this just seems like such a dreary diet to me. As if it weren't bad enough having to give up meat and dairy (and let's face it, 10% is basically giving it up), you are discouraged from using oils or dressings to jazz up the greens and beans?? I don't think I could survive giving up all the "fun" things...I'd get pretty sick of beans after awhile. What's the point of living a long healthy life if you're dying of boredom?

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you've found this diet...and no doubt it IS the healthiest way to eat, it just doesn't sound like anything I could stick to for longer than a week!

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    fredelicious mini-masher overthere's Avatar
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    Well, you kind of adjust to eating it, and it gets to be really yummy! I hardly EVER ate salads and greens, and now I look forward to it. Part of it is that I can eat as much as I want, and there are ways to dress it up. Add cubes of eggplant and mint, sauted Portabella mushroom, a dollup of hummus, and I'm collecting different vinagers and mustards. Also, I got ground almond butter (like peanut butter), mixed with a tasty vinager makes a great dressing, and a substantial one. Honestly, the aisles of sweets and packaged pastries and the like don't even seem like real food to me anymore, and I've only been doing this a couple of weeks. And I've lost weight! I kind hit a plateau of 120 pounds (I'm 5'1") and couldn't lose that last 5-10 pounds around my middle, and in just two weeks, I've lost 5-6 pounds! Awesome, it's been a long time since I saw 114#! The idea is that you eventually go down to your 'ideal weight' and maintain.

    I'm not super strict. I've had cheats in the last two weeks; a bite of chicken, rice, a bit of ice cream, heck, a whole lunch of Chinese food when I got together with my family yesterday! But overall, at home, I eat the Eat to Live guidelines, and I still lost and feel better. My goal isn't primarily weight loss, after all the above. I have hives that are kept in check with medication, and I'm hoping with a cleaner system, it'll resolve itself.

    Dr. Furhman says to give it just 6 weeks of your life to try it. Actually, not try it, but DO it, and see how it works for you. How you feel, if you want to continue or not. In the long scope of your life, what's 6 weeks? :-)

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    On my TARDIScycle! KingTermite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metieval
    I guess my main question would be I really don't need to lose many pounds. Will this book still be benificial?
    From what little I've read so far (mainly just introduction to explain the concept), he says its a good way to eat for everybody.....it's not a book about weight loss. It's not a "diet" to help you lose weight. It's just about the good and healthy way to eat and if you are overweight that, in and of itself, promotes the weight loss. If you are not overweight, it's still very helpful as its a healthy way to eat.
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecake View Post
    - it's pretty well established that Hitler was an *******.

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    Senior Member jennings780's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juf2m
    I don't know.....this just seems like such a dreary diet to me. As if it weren't bad enough having to give up meat and dairy (and let's face it, 10% is basically giving it up), you are discouraged from using oils or dressings to jazz up the greens and beans?? I don't think I could survive giving up all the "fun" things...I'd get pretty sick of beans after awhile. What's the point of living a long healthy life if you're dying of boredom?

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you've found this diet...and no doubt it IS the healthiest way to eat, it just doesn't sound like anything I could stick to for longer than a week!
    Over time you will find that your tastes will change.
    I look forward to eating as much now as I ever have. What you think is good tasting food will change.
    Case in point: I was at a pretty nice Italian restaurant in NYC this past week. I ordered a vegetarian pasta dish (whole wheat penne, baby spinach and tomatoes). The waitress said "we have received complaints that this dish is not very flavorful, you may want to order something else." I went ahead and ordered it. I found it to be fantastic and very flavorful. I now am used to the taste of veggies and other foods without a lot of sauces or condiments. I love the taste of fruits and veggies in their unaltered forms. Another example: on the same trip I ordered a salad with dressing on the side, but they brought it tossed with dressing (balsamic vinagarette). We were in a hurry so I ate it anyway. It wasn't swimming in dressing - it was just a normal amount of dressing for most people. I hated it. Way too much dressing. The dressing totally overwhelmed the salad. I use almost no dressing now.

    If you try the eat to live way to eat you will change what you view as good food.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by juf2m
    I don't know.....this just seems like such a dreary diet to me. As if it weren't bad enough having to give up meat and dairy (and let's face it, 10% is basically giving it up), you are discouraged from using oils or dressings to jazz up the greens and beans?? I don't think I could survive giving up all the "fun" things...I'd get pretty sick of beans after awhile. What's the point of living a long healthy life if you're dying of boredom?

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you've found this diet...and no doubt it IS the healthiest way to eat, it just doesn't sound like anything I could stick to for longer than a week!
    I find this thread fascinating and very informative. Thanks for that. I think I have something to contribute:
    For one, I am forced to eat mostly in restaurants, and not always the best ones.
    For two, I am exercising very intensely for two hours/day and four to six hours on weekends. I am training for a big bike trip.
    I follow this diet except adding fish and chicken and wine.
    The vegetables have some seasoning which makes them tasty. Specifically I like "Outback" salmon with double vegetable and salad. Cut out the bread, cheese and cutons put in a bottle of best red wine. (I do not work at Outback!)
    Lately I have added pasta to my diet because I lost too much weight!!! I went from size 40 waist to below 34.
    My wife eats same diet but cannot loose. The difference is the intensity of exercise.
    By the way, we have lots of energy. (Age 63)
    I guess that I think the exercise is as important as the diet???

  24. #24
    Senior Member juf2m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by will dehne
    I guess that I think the exercise is as important as the diet???
    It certainly is half of the equation....I lost almost 10lbs this summer and I have been eating like a fiend because of houseguests (I have to take them to all these great restaurants, out for ice cream, etc.). The only way I lost any weight was due to the cycling, I am convinced.


    I absolutely ADORE fruit and veggies, so eating more of them is not really an issue for me, it's just the exclusivity of it. Whenever I go on a long bike ride, there is nothing I crave more than a steak. I only usually have red meat once a week, but it is a huge treat for me, I'm not sure if I could give it up for some post ride beans with a little eggplant and vinegar! LOL! I also love red wine too...and ice cream. I don't really care about any other types of junk food, but those three things would be REALLY hard to give up. I may just check the book anyway though.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by juf2m
    It certainly is half of the equation....I lost almost 10lbs this summer and I have been eating like a fiend because of houseguests (I have to take them to all these great restaurants, out for ice cream, etc.). The only way I lost any weight was due to the cycling, I am convinced.
    [B][U]


    Yes, and we are trying to spread the word. Perhaps we do some good?

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