DaveLeeNC

I have decided to set myself a goal of riding a solo, out/back or loop (i.e., no net wind or elevation assists) 50 miler at 20 mph before I get too old to do it (might already be there - hit age 66 soon). It will be here in the Sandhills of NC on rolling hills - no big climbs but nothing really flat either. 2000-2500 feet of climbing (per MapMyRide) over 50 miles would be a good guess (with the elevation being between 250' and 600' the whole ride).

The story

1) Former runner and/or couch potato, but did a couple hours per week on a spinner bike from late 2012 to mid 2014. FWIW, have dropped 60 pounds since that start.

2) Only been riding about a year (plus 2 years in the 1990's)

3) Going to do this on my existing late 90's EL-OS steel frame Bianchi with 2014 Chorus groupset, Bontrager (clincher) RXL wheels, and probably Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CXIII tires that are on the way

4) Recently my 'best ride' was a 40 miler (with somewhat slower tires) at 19.4 mph, so it isn't like I am a long way from this (I think). This was a no stops ride. And, bizarrely enough, it was hot and I drank almost no water (I get lazy about that even though I am a heavy sweater), and had only a piece of cheese for breakfast (I am also an Atkins guy) - late morning ride. I don't think it mattered. The effort was hard but not quite 100%.

5) FWIW, I am 5' 9.5" tall and currently weigh 153 pounds (my 32 inch waist pants are on the loose side right now)

From a training perspective (Garmin Vector Power pedals, BTW)

1) This year I averaged 5-6 hours per week through April 1 (most of that on the spinner biker) where a personal issue forced me off the bike for 2 weeks. Since then my average has been around 10 hours per week (95% on a real bike). Average speed varies a good bit as I often am combining 'local trips' with my training rides so things get messed up with small town traffic considerations (sometimes - it depends) and occasional stops for whatever. But 175 to 200 miles per week is close. My Garmin 800 is set to Autopause at 0 mph.

2) Until a few weeks ago my training was mostly just 'ride however hard I felt like riding'. If I was tired I rode easy (or took the occasional day off). If I felt good I went hard. My typical NP averages averages across a week lately are around 210-215W (average power obviously lower, but I don't track that-but it is buried in my Garmin 800 and/or Golden Cheetah/WKO files). My best estimate of my ftp is 236W.

3) Since mid June I have been throwing in some shorter/harder work 2-3 times/week (depending on circumstances and how I feel).Today would be typical. I did a set of 6 x 4 min intervals at 265 to 280 W with 90 seconds rest between intervals. There are lots of 'short rollers' around here so I charged a number of them hard (after the intervals). This ride for me this was a harder than normal workout given that the total time was only 95 minutes (not many traffic or other stops today). But I'm hardly wiped out.

4) If I am short somewhere it is long rides. My longest ride since late last year has been 55 miles and that one was odd as I rode 10 miles to the start of a 35 mile group ride (and 10 miles back-15 minute break before the start of the Group Ride). But 50-60 miles is not a stretch for me right now.

So if I wanted to take a shot at a 50 miler in say 6 weeks (roughly) assuming 10'ish hours per week training plus only one long ride per week, where is the training leverage at this point. 20 minute ftp rides maybe?

Thanks.

dave

kini62

Rent a Tri-bike, get an aero helmet and you instantly get the 1 or so MPH you need with no further training. Why suffer through it on an old road bike?

DaveLeeNC

Nothing wrong with doing that. But it just isn't my goal.

dave

Drew Eckhardt 

Turn off the autopause so you get accurate normalized power and training stress numbers for rides.

Approximate your FTP as 95% of an all-out 20 minute effort, or CP60 using long and short efforts to exhaustion via Golden Cheetah (free, runs on Windows/Mac/Linux). Use that to ensure your hard efforts are past FTP, long threshold rides below, easy days/weeks slow enough to allow recovery and super-adaptation, and 50 mile effort is paced off your estimated critical power curve. Retest starting every 3-4 week macro-cycle.

7-10 minute intervals once a week seem to be the hot ticket for raising VO2max, FTP, and longer hard efforts. I was riding 4x10 starting at 110% of FTP with 5 minutes RBI.

4x8 as hard as possible with 2 minutes rest is the best Seiler has come up with in his studies, noting that 7-10 minutes is the sweet spot.

Below your aerobic threshold apart from that and perhaps one other hard day (the polarized protocol calls for 20% of sessions above FTP, and 80% below your aerobic threshold around the high end of Friel's zone 2; although one of Seiler's tests was two hard sessions a week) - more isn't better. With one rest week out of three so super-compensation can occur, you fit two macro-cycles into your six weeks, and are fresh for your effort.

In addition to my one interval day I like a weekly 1-1.5 hour effort aiming for 95% of FTP; that seems to make fast longer rides faster or at least feel better.

Get an aero jersey; that will do about as much for you as carbon wheels. I spent $55 for my previous year Louis Garneau custom program Mondo jersey size sample which is awesome. I found Castelli's Aero 4.0 to fit like a balloon and the Hincapie Velocity Speed to have a few wrinkles in the shoulders.

An aero road helmet like the Bontrager Ballista is a good idea too.

CP180 and CP120 approximations versus FTP are 65-75% and 76-83% respectively. Some athletes do better; you might be able to push 85-90%.

I'm curious how different training impacts that.

Above FTP but long enough to stress your lactate clearance works better.

DaveLeeNC

Drew, thanks for taking the time to type this. Very much appreciated.

FWIW, my best guess ftp is based on average power over a maximal 20 minutes (OK - last one calculated to 238W). Interestingly, my CP150 (not exactly a standard measure) is 89% of my ftp. That is the longest ride logged recently with no stops that was a strong effort. But it was not a maximal effort. Maybe I am just a long and slow kinda' guy :-)

dave

DaveLeeNC

Just a quick comment about handling power (specifically normalized power and TSS numbers) in rides with a few long breaks (or maybe lots of shorter ones). If you do the calculations you'll see that keeping your power meter running (recording time and zero power) while you are in the grocery store or whatever, will actually raise your TSS score over what it would be if your clock/power meter is just turned off during that time.

That happens because your TSS goes up linearly with the 'dead time' while your NP (and therefore IF) go down by the fourth power. The net is that your TSS score goes up if you insert a bunch of dead time "and count it". So I leave it out (assuming that I am actually not moving) as it at least tells me the how hard I was pedaling (NP) when I was pedaling. That aspect of TSS always seemed screwy to me. Kind of like a long rest makes "your workout harder".

dave

bikebreak

Dave, sounds like you have good keto adaption.
Last year I was doing fairly low carb and around 18mph out and back rides (with hills). This year I started eating more carbs, but not a lot, and using clif shot gels on the bike, and now getting around 19.5 average speeds. I can do 40 miles at 20mph.
I admit I'm not sure it's the diet or going to a longer lower stem, and moving my seat forward a bit, more of a time trial position.

Anyway, if you have good fat burning abilities already, maybe try pushing hard the first half on stored fat/glycogen and then add some carbs to the engine for the second half.

I will second the rec for an aero helmet, I have a Garneau Course and it looks like a regular helment but is definitely faster.
Also second Drew's rec of Louis Garneau jerseys, IMO they fit skinny guys better than castelli.

MZilliox

good luck with it, Great goal to set!
just worked myself into a 42miler with average over 20mph, now looking to extend that to 60 miles. ride hills and push your pace. mix sprints into your riding. I can't train, too boring and im not serious enough in cycling, but i can mimic training while having fun like an 8 yr old. of course if "do this activity on this day and do this activity on that day" is something that sounds fun, do it, otherwise ride like an 8 year old, sprint to the next sign, don't change gears up the hill, play stupid games with yourself. thats how my old injured ass gets it done.

Carbonfiberboy 

Ah, an Atkins guy. Simple, then. You can't ride fast without carbs:
The Importance of Carbohydrates and Glycogen for Athletes | TrainingPeaks
SSE #106 Carbohydrate Supplementation During Exercise: Does It Help? How Much is Too Much?
Carbohydrate Consumption During Exercise ? Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

So here's what you do:
Buy a tub of Hammer Nutrition Sustained Energy and a pint of Strawberry Hammer Gel. The night before your ride, have pasta for dinner but don't stuff yourself. Before you go to bed, mix up ~350 calories of SE and ~50 of HG in about a pint of plain water. That's your pre-ride meal. In a 24 oz. water bottle, mix up ~500 calories of SE and ~100 calories of HG. Refrigerate the pre-ride, the food bottle, and another 24 oz. bottle of plain water.

~3 hours before your ride, have the pre-ride drink, then nothing until the ride start. Do not eat any fat between getting up and your ride start! When you start riding, drink a little food every 15 minutes, probably 2 swallows. Every 30 minutes, drink water after the food. You'll want to finish the food and water bottles by the ride end. The reason you have 2 bottles is that in case your digestive tract balks at the CHO, you can add more water, drink less food.

Caution: Being excessively keto-adapted damages your carbohydrate adaptation. TANSTAAFL. To get the full effect of proper race nutrition like this, you may need to work on it for at least a week, maybe two.

RR3

I have not foound that to be the case.

I do agree that lack of glycogen will impair the ability to work at threshold but I have not found that my body will fail to absorb, convert or utilize CHO. There will be studies coming out showing keto adapted endurance athletes who oxidize fat at 2g/min!! What does that work out to 1080 calories per hour.

DaveLeeNC

FWIW, I did the ride today. It was a PERFECT day for such an undertaking. Despite not leaving until around 10:00 a.m. temps never got much above 80, humidity was low (by east coast standards), wind was close to non-existent, and I literally drank no water during the ride. FWIW didn't eat anything either. And (to cut to the chase) I averaged 21.4 mph over 50.3 miles! I was quite pleased (and surprised).

In the context of this ride and a training perspective, I didn't do a whole bunch different than what I had been doing. But I added some 4 to 10 minute interval work. Plus I did a good bit of work that is kind of "tuned to riding in this area" which is short rise after short rise (20 to 120 seconds) where I would go out and basically "try to pop over the top of every rise I encounter" pretty hard.

Regarding equipment I decided to just "do it with what I now own". So it was my late 90's EL/OS steel Bianchi (with 2014 Chorus upgrade). Bontrager Race X-Lite wheels (definitely NOT aero wheels). Vittoria Evo Corsa CXIII clincher tires with latex tubes. I did not use aero bars but did some moderate work on my aero position. No TT helmet but I did wear a Giro Air Attack helmet (kind of a roadie aero helmet). No skinsuit but I wore the tightest fitting shorts/jersey that I own. I did wear cycling half gloves although it was cool enough that going gloveless would have worked. I did not bother to tape up anything for better aero performance.

From a course perspective I really cherry picked this one. I stayed on (other than maybe 3-4 miles) roads with very good to 'as good as it gets' asphalt surfaces with no 'serious climbs' to deal with. In order to achieve this and also avoid having to deal with stoplights (there were no stops in this ride) I think that I ended up doing like 6 U-turns in the 'middle of the road'. And in the spirit of full disclosure this route (per my Garmin) had 1447 feet of climbing and 1506 feet of descents. So it was a tad downhill. Wind was just not much of a factor.

At the end I was ready to end the effort but not totally spent. And I had like 11 miles to ride to get back home. My best estimate of my ftp is 254 watts and this effort measured (dual pedal Garmin Vector) 236 watts average and 245 watts (normalized power). So riding at an absolute maximum effort would have netted me something, but not a whole lot (IMHO).

I was not expecting to face this question. But I hit age 66 in November so I don't have a bunch of improvement left. I am historically a runner (or nothing - about 40% of my last 30 years have been in good condition). I did some moderate indoor cycling simply for fitness between 2012 and 2014, and rode my first mile on a real bike just 15 months ago (last rides had been in the 1990's). So the question is "is a 5 hour century possible for me" (on a carefully selected course)?

I have only ridden one century which was last fall (solo thing on similar roads as this ride, but not quite so cherry picked). I averaged around 18.5 mph through 85 miles, encountered some minor cramping and slowed a bit. Then at mile 96 both legs literally locked up and I abandoned the ride at that point. Like I said I did NOT expect this to be a serious question. But maybe it is and maybe now is the time to refocus my training a bit and try to do this.

I would be very interested in comments here.

Thanks.

dave

ps. Interesting observation. I never got out of the 'big ring' (50/34 on the front and 11/27 on the rear). And while my typical diet is very much Atkins like, the 2 days before this ride added a good bit of carbs to the equation.

gregf83 

Congrats on the ride. I hope I'm riding as well at 66!

If you did 50 miles at 21.4 and it was an out and back I think 100 @ 20 is well within reach and I'd almost say easy. You could ride the 100 at 15-20% less power which would be around 200W.

I don't know if you drink coffee but some carbs and coffee would likely up your performance a little.

DaveLeeNC

Greg, I edited my post to reflect the fact that I added a good bit of carbs to my diet the couple days prior to this ride.

Thanks for the comments.

dave

gregf83 

I mainly meant during the ride. Particularly if you're going to double the distance I think some carbs would help. I've done 100 miles without any carbs but I wasn't trying to make any particular time.

caloso

how long ago did you test? It's recommended to test once a month.

DaveLeeNC

My last test was about 6 weeks ago. My (not very well established) habits here are every couple of months (maybe).

dave