chaadster

Beating a dead horse? I think you've more missed the boat than anything! The OP already playfully noted she considers her Strava rankings to mean she's " not awful." So don't worry; she does not have a loser attitude, but rather like most people, derives healthful and helpful motivation by monitoring her effort within a wider context, which by the way, is reflected in the thread's title and indicated in the OP as its raison d'etre.

LoriRose

Yes, or something like it. Reactive hypoglycemia. My blood sugar will rise then drop quickly after eating, and will also drop quickly after too much physical activity. A few years ago it was to the point where I would have to nap after a shower because it was too physically demanding...I would get light-headed, shaky, confused, have slurred speech and would be so hungry it felt like I hadn't eaten in days - just from a friggin shower. DR said no more sugar, simple carbs, etc., and I had to eat small about every 2 hrs with lots of fat and protein to keep myself feeling full. A year and a half of a VERY strict diet (couldn't eat most fruits or sweet veggies, no wheat, potatoes, rice, no sugar in any form, no fruit juice) and then several years of slowly allowing myself bites of simple carbs here n there and whatever it was that was broken has now mostly been fixed but I still have to be careful. Relying on simple carbs to get me through a ride could potentially put me back to where I was before. I wouldn't touch a sports drink or gel with a 10 foot pole. This girl needs fat and protein with her sugar!

LoriRose

Thank you for articulating that. I hesitated to respond because I didn't quite know how to word it but you nailed it!

Drew Eckhardt 

Yes. One day out of 5-6 is probably ideal. Two won't hurt if you're fit enough. You won't be fresh enough for more so you won't actually ride hard and will be worse off than if you did not try.

The naive approach of "just riding hard" doesn't work - at best you end up tired and merely not slow because you end up riding hard enough to stress your body, too hard to improve your aerobic system, but not hard enough to improve your anaerobic performance. I tried that when I didn't know better although I'd been riding road bikes for decades.

There's actually a paper showing that triathletes training time between the two extremes correlated with a slower bike leg, while more time below their aerobic threshold made it faster.

No problem speaking. 5-6 out of 10 unless you need a rest day and would rather do it on the bike at a walking effort. Easy is relative.

My 4-hour endurance pace is a little over 17 MPH (27km/h) average in "flat" terrain. Out of shape I couldn't do 15 MPH (24km/h) for one hour.

RR3's aerobic threshold is over 20 MPH (32km/h) and he's trying for 22 MPH (35 km/hour) for 24 hours straight.

You increase that pace by training below your aerobic threshold.

I broke my collarbone cornering at 21 MPH (34 km/h) on a flat and easy endurance ride which otherwise wouldn't have been dull.

One per Week. Harder than you think you can ride. Have a snack so you're not starving 1-2 hours before that so don't loose your lunch.

LoriRose

Alright then. I will reserve it for the end of my long flat rides where I have several uninterrupted kms where I can really push hard. Thank you again. Very helpful.

chaadster

While I think that what Drew is describing is pedantic and excessively complex because he's contextualizing it as a formalized training plan, the meat of what he's saying-- if I read him right-- is that making the same level effort each ride, expecting to build up to 10/10ths is not as effective as periodically working at 10/10ths, giving your body recovery time, and building off that.

Where I differ from Drew is that I don't pretend to know what's ideal, either for you specifically or in general. Big salary coaches, sports scientists, and entire training teams are paid to figure that stuff out, so I leave that to them. What I do know is that there is more than one way to achieve results.

What I take away from the various training plans and philosophies is that time has to be allocated to both max efforts and to recovery. What happens in between will depend on the athlete, their goals, and training time. As cyclists, though, we do need to develop stamina as well, and that only really comes with doing longer rides, so that needs to be part of the mix, too.

I also agree with Drew that those max efforts should be done while you're fresh, so you can give your best effort as well. You don't want to throw the hardest part of a training workout at the end, because you won't be able to work as hard and squander an opportunity to build fitness. If when riding (i.e. not training to a plan) you find yourself in a closing ride sprint or big push up the last climb, it will be that you've a solid base of fitness that lets you acheive best results, not that you've practiced exhausting yourself at the end of long rides.

Lastly, depending on your goals and interest, you may find doing workouts on a stationary or trainer to be highly effective and appealing, particularly for max efforts, and particularly if you use power to measure and evaluate those efforts. A power meter may seem like an expensive step, but one really makes effective training easy to accomplish, particularly when available training time is little.

I, for example, only manage to ride about 4 times a week during the summer, totaling about 7hrs, and maintain three rides a week year-round at 3hrs total. It's not much on average, but it's enough to develop and maintain fitness and power thanks to the highly focused time working to power on a stationary. My Strava rankings also tell me I'm not awful, and VeloViewer puts me above the 90th percentile based on my Strava placings, so while I'm not the fastest, I can haul my aging, 220lb mass around pretty good!

So yeah, take some time to put in all-out efforts, even short ones, and additional time for easy rides, and you'll start seeing improvements. Mix in some "sweet spot" training and endurance rides, and you'll really gain fitness in just a few weeks.

Carbonfiberboy 

I, like many endurance athletes, also have reactive hypoglycemia, though I never let it get as bad as yours. I went to my doctor and got a glucose tolerance test. I changed my off-bke diet; that was maybe 25 years ago.

However on the bike it doesn't work like you think it does. The problems are sort of the opposite due to your (and my) extraordinary ability to process simple carbs quickly. I have experienced hypoglycemia on the bike, but only during very long rides in the 200k+ range. I develop visual problems, not comfortable! That's due to a lack of carbs. When I increase my consumption, it goes away. Anyway, here a some links for you to look at:
https://www.runhilaryrun.ca/Images/At...poglycemia.pdf

Hypoglycemia and endurance exercise: dietary considerations. - PubMed - NCBI

Pre-exercise carbohydrate and fat ingestion: Effects on metabolism and performance (PDF Download Available)

Carbohydrate feeding during exercise in general:
A Step Towards Personalized Sports Nutrition: Carbohydrate Intake During Exercise

LoriRose

I too did the GTT, but the 2hr, and I did not experience any severe symptoms and my blood sugar levels were normal. The DR. who gave me my results was very dismissive and told me I was fine. The more appropriate test for RH is the 4-6hr test which measures your blood sugar over a longer period of time at regular intervals and is more concerned with rates of change in levels of BS rather than actual levels. Funny how in my case and in the case of the first article you linked to the controlled tests failed to replicate RH. As the article states though, it is "highly individual."

I am not convinced.

From the first article...

"However, scientific studies and anecdotal evidence *suggest* the following recommendations will assist in keeping blood sugar levels more constant ... Once exercise has been initiated for at least 20min, and during prolonged training and racing situations (1hr+ ), the consumption of sports-drinks will drastically reduce the likelihood of hypoglycemia by maintaining blood glucose concentrations."

This is not properly supported and also it does not explicitly say that sports drinks, i.e., sugar, will reduce the likelihood of reactive hypoglycemia, but only hypoglycemia. The references for this article are also dated and if RH is poorly understood today I doubt it was clearly understood 15 years ago.

From the second article ....

"The roles of pre-exercise supplements and carbohydrate feedings during exercise in this context are less clear."

and...

"Because of rapid gastric emptying characteristic of reactive hypoglycemia, it would appear that pre-exercise supplementationmay be of particular value to the hypoglycemic exerciser. Further, recent studies (Bergstrom & Hultman, 1967; Coyle et al., 1983; Foster et al., 1986; Leatt & Jacobs, 1986; Horton, 1988) indicate that carbohydrate solutions taken during exercise are effective in maintaining serum glucose levels and improving endurance performance. Careful monitoring of nutritional factors would appear to be critical in creating a suitable dietary environment for the hypoglycemic endurance exerciser."

Yes eating before exercising is good for the hypoglycemic exerciser. But the second statement merely supports carb loading for endurance performance and not specifically for an athlete with RH. The final statement cautions against such a jump in logic (IMO). I also think one needs to distinguish between RH and incidents of low blood sugar amongst "normal" athletes.

I've not yet read through the final article, but I will.

I first noticed my symptoms when I began power-walking. I started to bring along pieces of chocolate to get me through my walks. At first I wouldn't need to eat a piece until about after an hour, but slowly I needed to eat a piece earlier and earlier. When I couldn't get through 10 minutes of power walking without getting symptoms and needing a piece of chocolate every additional 10 min I thought okay, I need to stop. Something is very wrong here. Also, while at work (as a server) the same pattern was developing. I was unable to stop and eat at work so it was a can of coke that got me through my shift. It was my co-workers who told me that I needed to see a DR. after I would get so dizzy and confused that I would walk into walls. So my theory is that I did it to myself by consuming sugar to ward off hunger and mental and physical fatigue. I essentially created a sugar dependency and broke my system. Yes, this is anecdotal and anecdotal evidence doesn't carry very much scientific weight. However, if anyone wants to try and convince me that carb loading is the answer for getting through physical activities, well it just won't happen. I think it is bad advice - for me. I've been down that road and it wasn't pretty.

I do very much appreciate your feedback, suggestions and links though. I have learned a thing or two reviewing those articles. I welcome your comments.

Carbonfiberboy 

My GTT showed what some might call my sugar intolerance very clearly. They sent in a diabetic nurse to advise me. Her advice: "Put a log on the fire. Carbs are like tinder, you go through them too quickly. Eat cheese."
<snip>
This is exactly how I also got into it - eating snacks at work, which was somewhat physical. This was back in the day when eating <10% fat was all the rage, so I was carb snacking. It's still a problem for me somewhat, though now if I eat too much of the wrong thing, I can simply wait for the drop to pass and then I'm alright. I've learned not to try to eat my way out of the drop. Fat burning will take over and bring it back up now if I just wait.

Suggestion: My type 1 diabetic friends told me that one's blood sugar is most stable in the morning before one has eaten. Thus it's a good practice to go for a 1-2 hour pre-breakfast ride, fasted. If that's not possible, then do it any other time when it's been a few hours since you've eaten. This improves one's ability to move fat from adipose tissue to the muscles, and makes it easier to deal with times when one's blood sugar will start to drop. I do this fairly often, eating nothing before the ride. I'll sometimes get a transient hypoglycemia after a while, but that passes. After 2 hours, I can feel my power start to drop. That's not hypoglycemia the way we normally experience it in our non-riding life. It's the muscles crying for fuel. I always take a bottle of sports drink with me on any ride, just in case, and at ~2 hours I'll need to start taking a few swallows or give up any idea of performance riding. Some people can go for longer, but it's not necessary IME. Whenever I ride, I wear a heart rate monitor. I've been doing that for almost 20 years, so I have a good feel for the data. During a ride, if my heart rate starts to drop at a hard effort level, that's a sure sign I need to eat carbs. I won't feel hypoglycemic.

On any serious ride, it's impossible not to eat carbs. I know a lot of riders and there isn't anyone among them who doesn't eat carbs on a long ride. On a recent bike tour, we had a committed low carb Paleo rider who was eating sandwiches big time by the 3rd day. We also had a vegan who was eating liver and ribs.

My wife and I just rode RAMROD yesterday on our tandem - 150 miles and 8800' of climbing. I drank 1500 calories composed of 85% maltodextrin (GI >100) and 15% whey protein, plus a big sandwich and a couple cookies. My wife drank 1440 calories of Ensure, which has a similar chemistry to my drink, plus the sandwich and cookies. Strava estimates that we burned ~6150 calories for ~2300 calorie deficit. Seems about right. Two hours before the ride, we each drank ~400 calories of my malto/protein mix, no other food. Neither of us experienced any hypoglycemia even though I'm susceptible to it. The weird liquid food is because it's very difficult for us to digest anything else when climbing hard in the heat.

I believe that our problems, caused by eating carbs frequently while working or in your case, power walking, fall into a different category than eating carbs while riding or running hard. In these latter cases, energy use is scouring out the sugar from our blood faster than we can replace it no matter how much sugar we ate. This "scouring out" limits insulin release because our blood sugar stays relatively low. Thus the "reactive" component never happens. The body fills that gap with glycogen and fat. So the whole time you're riding hard, you're already getting energy from sugar: glycogen. It's pouring glucose into your system as your exercise level requires it to do. No difference between that and eating it, except that eating it spares glycogen for later use. It's the rate of glucose use by the muscles that eliminates RH during exercise.

There's a very good question: Why doesn't glycogen release during hard exercise keep the muscles fueled and eliminate any need to eat carbs before that ~2000 calories of stored glycogen are gone? I don't know the answer to that.

Drew Eckhardt 

Most of that is in your muscles - about 400 grams and 1600 Calories. Half a normal person's muscle mass is in their upper body, so only 800 Calories of that is accessible to your legs.

Some of cyclist's leg muscles get sore when we walk or run moderate distances, suggesting those muscle fibers and their stored glycogen don't get used riding.

These numbers are also averages. Training increases glycogen storage capacity. Diet also affects it

Effect of exercise-diet manipulation on muscle glycogen and its subsequent utilization during performance.

The liver adds another 100g/400 Calories and blood 25g/100 for maybe 1300 you can actually use.

sprince

You can subtract more of that because the heart, lungs and other vital organs get first priority on production from the liver.

Carbonfiberboy 

I notice a weird thing once in a while when riding somewhat unrecovered and on low calories: My legs are working OK at moderate intensity, but my head isn't good. I think that's because of depleted liver glycogen while leg glycogen is OK. Legs work, brain doesn't.

LoriRose

Exactly. Fat & protein. Good thing I love cheese! My meals typically consist of meat and vegetables (and dairy). I do eat white bread and pasta but I try not too overdo it or eat them too often. I recently discovered farro which is a very tasty whole grain. Before a longer ride I’ll have a bowl of oatmeal with raisins. Works well for me.

I also figured out that I can wait it out and it’ll pass, though I’m not sure that would have worked for me when I was at my worst. Like I said, I am mostly ok now. I only ever really get symptoms now if I wait too long to eat and am doing too much physical activity. A long busy night at work is usually the culprit. I have only had symptoms on the bike once when I stupidly decided to climb a challenging hill in 40 degree weather. I got off the bike, drank some water, rested for 30 min and continued on when I was feeling better.


This seems a little frightening to me! Maybe I should give it try though and see how I hold up. My fear is that messing with my diet might screw me up again. Since taking up riding again I realize I do need to eat more carbs during my long rides and this makes me nervous. I do not want to recreate the cycle that (I believe) caused my RH in the first place. I mostly stay away from any processed sugar and eat whole foods, but on my rides I’ll eat a muffin or “healthy” cookie

Eeek! Isn’t that full of sugar?

Very interesting though I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this as I don’t really understand the process to begin with. Assuming you are right, however, I will still opt for healthier sources of carbs (like honey, dried fruits and whole grains) over processed sugar and whole foods over processed foods in general. It is my belief that processed sugar is bad for you no matter how you dice it and is what compromised my system in the first place. Carb loading during a long ride doesn’t necessarily have to be accomplished by consuming just sugar, no? One can just as easily eat complex carbs with maybe some fat and protein and achieve the same effect?

LoriRose

This happens to me. Brain fog but my body feels fine, though I haven't been able to figure out the trigger or conditions that lead to it.

Carbonfiberboy 

Many people do better with complex carbs. It's individual, and depends on if your particular stomach and intestine will move the particular carbs that you are eating into the bloodstream without issues.

<snip>

Try it. I don't think you need to be afraid of anything that doesn't involve eating sugars.

Yup. But results rule, not theory.

Yes. But honey is the same thing as HFCS, exactly. It's just bee vomit. The bees' chemical factories are just as good as ours, but there's no difference between honey and a Big Gulp except the cost. And see my first reply in this msg. It's all about what works for your digestion.

Carbonfiberboy 

I think it's low liver glycogen. Not eating enough carbs recently, and/or not replacing the carbs your liver used during the night. Your brain is a huge carb consumer. When you sleep, it's still working and gets its carbs from liver glycogen. The next day during the time before you ride, this glycogen needs to be replaced or you get the brain fog. When I have a big ride, I'll wake up 3 hours before the ride, eat a bunch of carbs (300-400 cal.) and go back to sleep. This is the reason. It's not about muscle glycogen, which won't change while you sleep.

LoriRose

Yes, and I think for people with RH complex carbs would be the smarter, healthier choice. The difference for me between honey and a big gulp is that I don't consume huge amounts of honey alone. I use it in small amounts as a sweetener in combination with fats, complex carbs and proteins. People who consume big gulps generally do so either alone or in combination with some other unhealthy processed food full of sugar and/or unhealthy fat that they bought at the corner store. They may be almost identical in their make-up, but HFCS is typically processed from GMO corn whereas (raw organic) honey is a natural whole food. That has to count for something. Maybe not - particularly for someone with sugar issues - but as I said I do not consume it alone. THIS has been the key to my recovery from RH - not consuming large amounts of simple carbs, only small amounts with other real food. Don't get me wrong. I am far from a health food fanatic or self-righteous bandwagon organic consumer. I eat bad food all the time. Just not of the refined sugar type.

LoriRose

***update***

For the last few weeks I've been lucky and was able to commute 5/5 days pretty much every week. So 50km/week. I took a recovery week (to attend a 3 day music festival and engage in lots of binge drinking -oops), and then started my long rides over at about 40km as the previous 50km ride didn't feel so great. AND I bought a trainer! Oh, AND I quit vaping (I transitioned from cigarettes to ecigs - with nicotine- about 20 months ago) a week ago. So my week now includes 50km of easy commuting, a long ride increased by approx 10% per week, 3 days of a morning session on the trainer (started at 20 min each and will increase gradually to an hour), and then if I have time and weather permits a 15km mountain ride working on my climbing and any other spontaneous shorter rides when I feel for it. So about 120 - 130km/week plus time on the trainer.

I also discovered via another thread here on BF some very crucial info about the particularities of the strength and flexibility of my body that lead me to adjust my bike lending to a much more comfortable fit for endurance rides. Thank god. (My entire right side is ridiculously tight).

So, I'm just wondering about recovery weeks. I know the traditional recommendation is every 4th week, but is there any harm in opting for every 5th if I'm not feeling fatigue? Or am I not riding enough, i.e., should I be fatigued?

It was never my intention to "train" but I think I'm already in too deep (read addicted) to not follow through and monitor and plan my progress.

Also, Carbonfiberboy, I have been doing my morning sessions fasted to test your suggestions. So far, at just 20-25min I've not had any serious symptoms - just a little shaking as I wrap up. I will keep on to see if I can push through like you said. I don't mind trying this out in the comfort and safety of my own home on the trainer.

chasm54

Sorry, missed this thread before. I hope you won't mind if I jump in at this late stage.

Specifically, recovery weeks. This is all about intensity. When I am touring I can ride six days a week, fifty or sixty miles a day, for eight weeks at a time. Probably more, maybe indefinitely, but eight weeks is my longest tour so far. Fatigue rarely becomes an issue except following a big climbing day, and is sorted out by taking an easy day or a day off, because when touring almost all the rest of my riding is in z1 and z2, and I can recover adequately overnight.

But when I was training for racing I absolutely needed to take the easy recovery weeks, whether I felt I needed them or not. In fact, I needed to take one every third week, not every fourth, because being in my late fifties I couldn't handle the 3:1 cycle. I discovered this the hard way, by trying to get fit quick after injury using Carmichael's time-crunched training program. It worked, after a fashion, but as well as making me faster it burned me out. After a couple of months of it I found I couldn't train properly for several weeks, because the accumulated fatigue was preventing me from hitting the numbers, completing my usual intervals etc. I stopped getting fitter, and just got exhausted instead. I'd strongly advise against that, it gets into your head and in the end you actively dislike the thought of getting on the bike.

So I'd err on the side of caution. If your regular weeks contain a significant amount of intensity - intervals, or a couple of hard days in the hills, or whatever - then I would definitely recommend that you make every fourth week an easier week. It will keep you fresh, and you will actually progress faster, over a much longer period, than if you try to maintain the intensity week-in, week-out. And it's supposed to be fun, right? Overreaching, followed by overtraining, is not fun, it's depressing.

LoriRose

***Progress Report!!!***

I worked myself up to 82Km, and it killed me. I made a few mistakes for my last ride and am now considering backing off completely though my goal was to complete 100km before winter arrives. My previous ride of 75km wasn't too bad. I was suffering near then end but nothing like yesterday. I was all good up until about 60km and then the sun went down and my front light was not adequate enough to light the way so I was straining to see. Then the low blood sugar set in and it was cool and there was an unforgiving strong headwind. I couldn't feel my feet, I was exhausted and couldn't think straight - all I wanted to do was pull over and take a nap. It was a little bit scary. I was starting to hallucinate. I had to get off and walk for about 20 minutes.

I would really like to continue on and do a metric century before winter arrives but I absolutely do not want a repeat of yesterday. I think I need to rest and have a real meal half-way through rather than relying on carb snacks, and also not get caught riding in the dark.

On a lighter note, the first 2/3 of the ride was great. I was thoroughly enjoying the ride and the sunset over the water was stunning.

Thoughts?

Garfield Cat

Lori, go on a long ride with a group. That will take your mind off of just yourself. The added perspective will help. Other thing is the cold weather is way different than summer riding.

Carbonfiberboy 

With this mileage and effort level I don't think recovery weeks should be necessary. No, I don't think you should feel fatigued. Have you been doing recovery weeks since this post? Did you ever feel fatigued, i.e. have trouble sleeping, hate the idea of getting on the bike?

Shaking after only 20-25 minutes on the trainer is definitely out of spec for any rider. Something's funny with your energy systems. Do you feel hungry? You're burning out all your blood sugar and the systems that should be using adipose tissue to replace it don't seem to be working. I recommend a scattershot of supplements, see if any of it makes a difference:

These will help mitochondrial function, i.e. the ability to convert fat into energy.
Twinlab B12 Micro Dots 500mg, sublingual 1/day
MRM CoQ10 100mg, 2X/day

Many North Americans have clinically low blood levels of Vitamin D due to indoor lifestyle and the constantly covering up and putting on sunblock. If you haven't had a recent blood test showing normal levels, try:
NOW Vitamin D-3, 2000 IU, start 3X/day taper to 1/day

I give the brands because I've found those reliable and good value.
Try that for a month. You've riding long enough that if there's a difference, you'd notice it and it wouldn't be just from training.

Carbonfiberboy 

This ride shouldn't have been a problem but it was. As you say, low blood sugar. Only two possible causes for that: you're not recruiting your bodyfat for energy, discussed in post 47, and/or not eating anything like enough or sufficiently regularly. Also it's possible that if you're not eating enough carbohydrates in your regular day-to-day diet, you're not replenishing your glycogen, especially liver glycogen as I've discussed earlier. This latter however can be ameliorated simply by eating.

It works best for most riders, early in their training, to replace lost sugars by eating. The fat burning is a slow adaptation that takes time. It'll happen even if you eat because it's impossible or at least very very difficult to eat enough to ride without burning fat.

A full meal in the middle of a ride is the worst way to eat and the most likely to cause a blood sugar event. The stories of cyclists who ate a big meal and 200' later were either barfing or sitting in a ditch are legion.

Try this: buy a 6-pack of Ensure. Chocolate works well for most folks. Put two bottles in one of your water bottles and fill the rest with plain water. Put plain water in the other. 15' after you start riding, take a swallow from the Ensure bottle. Continue to do that every 15', by the clock. If there's any left over after the ride, drink it down immediately after the ride. Bring along a cut bagel with cream cheese. After the ride, eat 1/2 the bagel every half hour or until you sit down to a meal.

I'm recommending this particularly because I know the dosage from my wife's work on it.

LoriRose

I eat plenty, including plenty of carbs. I'm not really trying to burn fat - I have some, but I am far from overweight.

I eat about 60grams of carbs about every hour as I ride, but it didn't seem like enough. I was hungry and wanting a meal. I haven't had any problems with eating then riding as of yet. Luckily, digestion problems have never really been a problem for me.

Something tells me it was the combination of cold and hungry that did me in.

Carbonfiberboy 

It's curious. 60g/hour should do it. Many of us can ride a double century on that. What are you eating and how much, how frequently? How many hours were you riding - elapsed time? Chris Carmichael of CTS coaching advises about 30g/hour for a century ride, for instance.

Every endurance athlete wants to burn fat - not that we're fat, just as a long-term fuel source. Even the skinniest of us has enough fat to ride at least 3 TdF stages. Fat you burn is calories you don't have to eat on the bike. There's a limit to how many calories we can digest on the bike, hence the desire for fat burning. Similarly there's a limit to how many calories of fat we can burn an hour, and there's a limit on how many calories of carbs we can burn an hour. Combine those and we can put out more power over the course of a long ride than we can on only one fuel source.

Theoretically the cold can sap energy because we have to use some to stay warm. However my experience is that even in the cold the cyclist's problem is how to get rid of heat. If you experience cold, you're not dressed warmly enough.

The dark however is a major sapper of mental energy. I find it very hard to ride strong after dark. For one thing, it's dangerous to go fast!