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Old 04-30-05, 06:25 AM   #1
Labarum
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Nutritional Heresy of the very truth?

This should raise a few comments.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/athletic_diet.html
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Old 04-30-05, 08:22 AM   #2
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I can't believe the wack-job insanity that is out there on the internet.

If this atkins stuff is so effective for athletes (cyclists), then the atkins evangelists should set out to demonstrate it: Form a "low-carb" pro cycling team, get sponsored by Oscar Meyer or Jimmy Dean, and lets see what happens.
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Old 04-30-05, 08:36 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
This should raise a few comments.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/athletic_diet.html
That article is so poorly written it makes my head hurt, and they haven't the teeniest tiniest foggiest clue about carbo-loading aka supercompensation.

Check out the table in this article about glycogen stores with various nutritional approaches.
http://trinewbies.com/Article.asp?ArticleID=54
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Old 04-30-05, 09:17 AM   #4
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And these references, then?

http://atkins-uk.com/Archive/2002/6/17-496610.html

http://atkins-uk.com/Archive/2002/1/11-488629.html

The second of these simply quotes an independent academic study which suggests low to moderate energy expenditure of energy can be maintained without carb loading, but "the oxidative contribution of fat for exercise metabolism and in exercise performance have not been systematically studied during moderate- to high-intensity exercise in humans."

I don't know what the truth is - I have reliable friends on low carb forums telling me there is no problem sticking with an Atkins diet; and I have a passionate rebutal of that view by some on this forum.

Last edited by Labarum; 04-30-05 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 04-30-05, 10:20 AM   #5
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Labarum, the problem with all this who to believe is that the two sides are both very passionate about their view. Both can quote studies till hell freezes over.
Unless you have a race schedule to follow, the best thing to do if your curious about a low carb "WOE" (way of eating) is to actually try it for a short time.
I've been eating a low carb diet for almost 2 years now, and I have no trouble sticking to it. I'm eating beef sausages and eggs for breakfast right now, and they're real nummy :-)
Now a big problem I see in this forum is that many (all?) the people against low carb tend to think it means no carb. That isn't the case. For example, yesterday I had a green salad with my chicken for lunch, mid afternoon quiche had chives, mushrooms and broccoli, and dinner was roast chicken thighs, a huge mound of steamed broccoli and about 1/2 cup of wild rice. For dessert, a banana and whipped cream. Not real tough to stick to this diet.
Now, performance wise, I'm 41 yrs old, in the best shape of my life, able to lift more weights and run farther and faster than 20 years ago, and since recently getting in road cycling, I can ride for hours with no trouble. Now, for these extended journeys, or shorter hammerfests, I found a couple of things.
If I'm in ketosis (the process of using fats for energy), I have no trouble and can go all day. If I'm not in ketosis (because of a slip in eating/over carbing), my performance is fine, but at the end of my ride I can smell ammonia in my sweat. This indicates I was also scavenging proteins for energy, which with my weight lifting routine, is bad for me. In this case, I'll take a bottle of diluted gatorade or other sugar drink with me, and that consumed during the ride prevents the nitrogen (protein) burning.

Now a typical day for me is get up at 6am, run 5k,(stopping in the middle for some HIIT hill intervals 2x/week), eating no carb breakfast, commuting about a 30minute ride to work on my MTB bike, working all day with a lunch as described as above, commuting home 30 min, switch to my road bike at home and do whatever the day's training is ( either short intense or a long tempo ride), come home, have a dinner as above, play basketball with the kids outside, then 4 nights a week I spend an hour in the gym with weights. I get home, have a protein/dextrose shake, take the dog for a walk as a wind down for the day, and then get my 6.5 hours of sleep.

This has been typical of my days for at least 18 months, minus the recent addition of the road bike. So, while the bread eaters think I'm nuts, ( I used to be a bread eater that thought this stuff was nuts), this particular WOE works for me, my doctor is happy with my blood work, my family likes me better since I have more energy, thus am happier than before, my friends and co-workers have adopted similar lifestyles after seeing what I've accomplished, ( I was 5'9", 260 pounds, smoked a pack a day and couldn't walk 2 flights of stairs 2 years ago) and overall my life has never been better.

I don't have any studies to quote, I don't have a degree from medical school, heck I have nothing but myself as an example of what this type of thing can do for me, and yes, it could work for you if you gave it a chance.
Which comes back to the beginning,,,,instead of believing either side, give it a shot, if it works, awesome! If you're not 100% satisfied with the results, have a potato sandwich on rye and rethink your choice.
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Old 04-30-05, 10:27 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by H23
Form a "low-carb" pro cycling team, get sponsored by Oscar Meyer or Jimmy Dean, and lets see what happens.
You're kidding right? Don't these companies make hot dogs and processed meat-like meals in a bag? Don't eat that crap man, it'll kill ya!!
Now, if the Beef Farmers of America were to sponsor a team, I might sign up! Steak good, hot dog bad. Live by this rule, you'll be healthier!!
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Old 04-30-05, 11:26 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
The second of these simply quotes an independent academic study which suggests low to moderate energy expenditure of energy can be maintained without carb loading, but "the oxidative contribution of fat for exercise metabolism and in exercise performance have not been systematically studied during moderate- to high-intensity exercise in humans."
No, it *reproduces* an *abstract* of a study published in a journal whose impact factor I don't know.

And it says explicitly that carbo loading is a good way to improve performance: "Moreover, preliminary studies suggest that mean cycling 20 km time-trial performance following prolonged submaximal exercise is enhanced by 80 s after dietary fat adaptation and 3 days of carbohydrate loading."

Problem is, carbo loading (glycogen depletion through days of low carbo diet followed by high carbo and consequent supercompensation and optimal glycogen storage) went out in the seventies because it's horribly stressful to an athlete's body. You can hardly train while you're in a depletion phase convincing your body you're starving to death and then all of a sudden you turn all your metabolic mechanisms upside-down? People sometimes use carbo loading these days for single events, like if you wanted to run ONE Ironman in your life you might do such a procedure just prior to the event, but for an ongoing diet to support continual training and regular competition, sports nutritionists are generally telling us what our common sense is telling us: whole-grain carbo sources are nutrient rich and provide fuel for endurance exercise; veggies are essential in copious amounts; lean protein sources, especially fish and legumes, are superb; vegetable fats and essential fats are important but saturated animal fat is associated with increased health risk and carries the composite of all the contaminants that have been in that food chain until the critter died.

badhabit, I read New Diet Revolution and I know many people who are in Maintenance finding that this is a good way for them to keep their weight down. However, Dr. Atkins himself says that staying in Induction for years is just fine. Add that to the hoards of people doing "low carb" on a whim by choosing "low carb" snacks and lots of animal products, and is it any wonder that the whole shebang has a bad rep? Though I am aware that it is possible to make reasonable dietary choices and stay within the Atkins philosophy, in my personal view it seems very clear for myriad reasons that animal products should be limited in a healthful diet, which means I can't consider a high-fat high-protein diet to be healthful. I wish you a long and happy life, and kudos on kicking the smoking habit, but "steak good hot dog bad" will never be a central premise for my dietary choices!
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Old 04-30-05, 11:36 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by alison_in_oh
but "steak good hot dog bad" will never be a central premise for my dietary choices!
I understand your oint completely, and yes, eating low carb has to be done properly. Eating junk food with an occasional "low carb" snack is not what this is about.
And the steak vs. hot dog thing means that "IF" you choose to eat more meat and less carbs, don't pick Oscar Myers as a supplier of your meat source!
This is an individual thing that people need to try on their own if they feel it may help with weight loss goals over the long term. If you try it, good luck, if carbs are your food of choice, I'm happy for you too! Now I'm going for a ride!!
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Old 05-01-05, 03:27 PM   #9
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Any time I read or hear "before I show you any evidence here's a story about how it worked for John Doe" I just automatically think of some evangelist trying to tell me why radioactive carbon dating is wrong. The only reason someone would go into testimonial type arguments is that they don't have any real substance or data to back up their claims.
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Old 05-01-05, 03:46 PM   #10
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Atkins is an overpriced alternative for people who either can't make themselves just eat a little bit of everything or are too lazy to go and eat a little bit of everything. Atkins cuts carbs. People that sit around doing nothing don't need as many carbs. All atkins does is ensure that lazy people get the amount of carbs they really need since they're just sitting around doing nothing.

Its an overpriced substitute for a self imposed dietary structure for people who are too lazy to eat a bit of everything and exercise. JUST LIKE ALL FAD DIETS ARE.


*ahem* sorry to all members of the board who are on the atkins diet.
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Old 05-01-05, 04:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by PenguinDeD
Atkins is an overpriced alternative
I'm not overly familiar with the Atkins diet, but I'm pretty sure it's free like all the other low carb diets. ALthough I admit it costs me more for steak than it does for bread.....
Whether the steak is actually over priced, I'm not sure....
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Old 05-01-05, 04:40 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by badhabit
I'm not overly familiar with the Atkins diet, but I'm pretty sure it's free like all the other low carb diets. ALthough I admit it costs me more for steak than it does for bread.....
Whether the steak is actually over priced, I'm not sure....
What I mean is the atkins brand itself and all the nutritional guideline pamphlets that one is told to buy to go along with it.
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Old 05-01-05, 04:47 PM   #13
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Well, if you need to buy stuff, that ain't right. I get everything I need at my grocery store, and my monthly food bill is the same as it ever was. But really, if somebody buys a pamphlet, and it motivates them to lose a bunch of weight, that can't be all bad.
Pretty much if it works for someone, great. If you don't need it, great. I needed it, and now I feel great. So lots of great stuff happening for everyone, just in different ways. Which is great...right?
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Old 05-01-05, 06:16 PM   #14
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I agree! Didn't mean to offend you if you're truly motivated by it that's fantastic. I've just experienced my mom and my girlfriend's mom trying every new fad diet under the sun. My girlfriend's mom is still over 300lbs, and my mom's still at her weight. I'm sure my experiences with them has influenced my viewpoint on the subject.

My point was I believe that as long as one is eating a bit of everything and one is exercising, then one will be healthy.
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Old 05-01-05, 11:00 PM   #15
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Hey, no offence taken. For lots of people, this is something that would never be necessary and your plan of clean eating and excercise is a good plan. But some people have insulin resistance issues, and eating carbs triggers eating more carbs which triggers,...well, you get the picture.
Unlike a fad diet, this isn't somethng you do to lose weight and then return to the way you ate to get heavy in the first place. This is a lifestyle change that gets people away from the heavy carbs (bread, potatoes,white rice, etc) and gets them eating better sources of carbs.
And once you've trained your body so that you control it, not it controlling you, the occasional snack of pizza or a some other old time favorite won't upset your metabolism.
I recall my buddy first explaining that he was on this Atkins diet, (which I had never heard of), and I had to explain to him how he needed his head examined.
But from what I know of atkins, you only go extremely low carb for a few weeks, then slowly intorduce good carbs back into your diet.
I'm sure you'd be surprised if you saw my food intake for a week. It's probably not a lot different from your's, assuming you eat clean. I can eat rice and pasta, and as long as I don't gorge on it, I can keep my metabolism in ketosis and use fat for energy.

And like I said in another post, if I'm going out for a hard group ride, I'll gulp some gatorade (carb juice!) during my ride for any extra fuel I may need.

The problem with the whole low carb thing is that it goes against everything we've ever been tought about nutrition. And because of that, it will meet strong resistance, especially in endurance sport circles. But for some it works, for others it's a fad, still others think it is completely insane and anyone that does it will die a horrible death!

For me it did what I wanted it to, for others they stopped it and gained the weight back, others can just ride more and eat anything they want and lose weight. But if you think you might benifit from this type of eating, check some of the online boards and really find out what it's all about.
Anyway, I don't want to sell thsi stuff to people that don't want it, so choose what's right for you, and be happy.
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Old 05-01-05, 11:15 PM   #16
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Hey, this guy knows what he is talking about.

Quote:
I like to think that I am an athlete. I have eleven International Gold Medals and four World Records for archery.
I mean when we did archery in HS gym class, I could barely walk home from school I was so spent. I mean, just standing there and pulling the bowstring really gets your heart rate going. Not like those lazy cyclists who just pedal around all day!

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Old 05-01-05, 11:41 PM   #17
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Greetings, Badhabit.

Some sense at last.

For me, like you, for the first time in years I felt steady and in control, having reduced the carbs to a minimum, and brought the insulin rollercoaster to a halt. I do believe I was heading for type 2 diabetes.
For the likes of us the good general advice about balanced diet and excerise fails, and the professionals in particular should have the sense to see that.

This comparison of Atkins with South Beach on this independent board has some interesting observations on insulin sensitivity.

http://www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.c...ic.php?t=30088

How long have you been on Atkins? How much have you lost and in what time? How many carbs are you now consuming? You seem to increase before and during a long ride. These are the issues I am trying to get advice on, and I would welcome any tips you could give me.

Maybe they should be in private messages, but there would be some merit in staying public.

The folk on www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.com were absolutely marvelous with me. I learned such a lot. Do you post there? In what name?

There is so much misinformation about low carb because it tramples over orthodoxy. For the others:

Dr Atkins did not say calories don't count: he said "Don't count calories", and even that has to be qualified "In the beginning, don't count calories."

As you approach target you certainly must count both. I counted both from the start using www.fitday.com

And Dr Atkins was also very clear about the need to excercise - it is not optional.

But I digress. I will just enjoy the country lanes, try to improve my fitness and endurance, and not get fussed about the orthodox telling me to get some carbs down my neck.

And if you can offer me any more advice, Badhabit, I would be grateful.
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Old 05-02-05, 12:29 AM   #18
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Labarum, the plan I was first intorduced to is called " The Carbohydrate Addicts Diet", so I'm not overly familiar with the Atkins regime. Essentially with my WOE, I have 2 carb free meals per day, a carb free or low carb snack, and then for dinner I have a balanced meal of pretty much anything I want, as long as I eat it within an hour. This includes dessert of my choice.
I also use Fitday to track my food, and I average about 1900-2100 calories per day. I'm 5'9" on a tall day, and weighed in around 260 when I started. I'm now about 192, which I've been at for almost 6 months now. It took me almost a year to get there, but I couldn't excercise much in the beginning. Before cycling, I ran 4 or 5 mornings a week, heavy weights in the gym 4 days per week, and rode my mtb bike to work. I take the kids swimming one or two days per week, and that takes some work, I tell ya!

Recently I bought a road bike (and loving it) and found a few things on energy, for me anyway. If I'm in ketosis and go on a long ride, I can ride all day. However, if I'm not in ketosis on a day I decide to do a couple of hours riding, I find I burn nitrogen in addition to fat, which I can tell by the smell of ammonia in my sweat. Since I've worked hard to put on a fair bit of muscle over the last year, I'm not keen on losing it as an energy source. Since I can tell when I'm not in ketosis, if I mix 350 ml of gatorade with that much water and drink it during the ride, no ammonia smell. And since I'm not actively trying to lose much weight anymore, I'm just out of ketosis most of the time these days, and having the sugar water gives me a boost for long endurance rides.
Now, if you're in ketosis, you should have no trouble riding a long time using fat as energy. Just remember, a good recovery drink when you're done is important. I use low carb protein shake with a heaping teaspoon of dextrose to help transport the protein into the muscle and restore a bit of muscle glycogen.
Overall, this WOE has been great for me, and provides me with tons of energy. My co-workers are all getting groggy around 2 in the afternoon from their bread lunches, and I'm bouncing off the walls!

In total I run about 25k per week, ride about 100k, lift weights 4 days per week, hike or mtb bike on the week-ends with the family, go swimming, and walk the dog 7 days per week. I have no shortage of fuel for doing all the things I want to do, and I don't have that bogged down feeling I used to have when I was heavy and full of carbs!

Any questions, feel free to ask. I know this isn't a popualr topic here, but by the number of views, there does seem to be some interest in the subject, so let's keep it inthe public forum until the lynch mob is in sight
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Old 05-02-05, 01:25 AM   #19
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I think the whole idea of whether you can ride without carbs gets confused by the issue of intensity. If you go on 50% of max HR you can go all day since your in fat burning mode, but go 80% for any continued length of time and yopu will need sugar feeding, and will propably run into problems if your not starting with filled deposits. So when we talk carbs and cycling we need to mention intensity in the same breath.
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Old 05-02-05, 08:03 AM   #20
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nbf, absolutely. Right now I can go out with the shop ride and ride aggressively for about 1.5 hours, which is the length of the ride we do. I keep up to everyone else within my range of experience (the guys that have been riding for years are much stronger). Unfortunately I have no before/after comparison, but I know it's my lungs restricting me, not my legs.
I'm also not saying that world class pros could do this and perform the way they do (maybe they could, don't think they ever tried), but for the rider that is riding for fitness and to lose some weight, it is a viable option.
People that are racing bikes probably aren't real over-weight to begin with, and the whole premise of low carb eating is to lose weight (and keep it off). The racer guys that keep trying to defend carbs don't need to worry about whether low carb is good or bad, because obviously they don't need to eat that way! :-)
Now, the chunky people that do need to eat that way, might find this the path to getting into good enough condition to start racing.
Again, this is just one of many choices people can make in their lives, some will be for it, others against it and some won't care either way.
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Old 05-02-05, 08:38 AM   #21
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Hi Badhabit

At 260lb and 5ft 9in you were a porker! Congratulations on your loss.

I was 260 but 6ft3in. I have been stuck at 208 since before Christmas eating 1800 - 200cals per day. So come the spring I resloved to get on my bike.

Lets see what the riding deficit achieves!
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