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Training to "Address Your Weakness(es)"

Old 01-12-16, 08:52 AM
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Training to "Address Your Weakness(es)"

I was looking at my data in the context of Table 4.1 of the Allen/Coggan Training with a Power Meter book. Here is a link https://tinyurl.com/h8d5mnd . Basically it takes your best power/kg output of 5sec, 1min, 5min, and 1hr (ftp by definition). And it then 'rates that result' in ranges defined as Cat I, Cat II...,CatV, and untrained.

Over most of 2015 I have been doing a good bit of riding that is mostly unstructured, but kind of informally structured with an awareness of "what might be missing at the moment". I don't race but I will occasionally set myself a personal goal and work toward that. Training time has been mostly in the 9-12 hours per week range.

I do occasionally do a formal ftp test (which I need to repeat and don't want to ), but based on this and all the history I have from all my data (been using Garmin Vector pedals since early this year), I have a decent handle on how I fit into Table 4.1.

I see what is to me an odd looking result. Let me preface this by saying that I have always been a good endurance performer (mostly a runner) and definitely on the slow side as a runner/sprinter. AND I am 66 years old and been back on my bike since the summer of 2014. But my results for 60 and 5 minutes efforts put me in the Cat III range. My results for 1 minute and for 5 seconds put me at the bottom of untrained!

Maybe this is a combination of age, natural lack of ability (for speed), and the fact that I certainly don't 'train like a sprinter' (although the poor results for 1 min surprised me).

I was wondering if there are others with a similar shape 'to their profile'.

Thanks.

dave
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Old 02-10-16, 12:26 PM
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Is it that odd? I thought in the book they categorise that profile as being that of a steady state rider, climber etc or words to that effect? on page 337.
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Old 02-10-16, 01:07 PM
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I missed this when first posted. I agree that it's not that odd. The top end responds quickest to training, in my experience, so I'd bet that a few weeks of sprint intervals, on top of your already good aerobic fitness and ftp, would see your 5 sec and 1 min performance climbing the table.
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Old 02-10-16, 02:49 PM
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Thanks for the comments. I was simply surprised to find myself in reasonably good shape yet in the category of "untrained" in the context of sprinting.

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Old 02-10-16, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
Thanks for the comments. I was simply surprised to find myself in reasonably good shape yet in the category of "untrained" in the context of sprinting.

dave
I think the aerobic and anaerobic pathways develop separately to some extent. There have been lots of times when I've been in great shape endurance-wise, but couldn't sprint out of sight on a dark night.
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Old 02-10-16, 03:49 PM
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Do you want to be a better sprinter? And if so, what are you doing to train that?
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Old 02-10-16, 04:53 PM
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I would prefer to not be a sprinter that 'measures' as untrained. OTOH, I don't race or even do group rides often. So a good case could be made
that this 'problem' is simply in my head.

Based on what I have found in doing research, typing about it on the internet is unlikely to change things :-)

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Old 02-10-16, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
But my results for 60 and 5 minutes efforts put me in the Cat III range. My results for 1 minute and for 5 seconds put me at the bottom of untrained!
It's not unusual. Have you done any dedicated max efforts at the shorter durations? It's hard to reach your max for these shorter durations without a deliberate attempt. For example, my max 5 second power for the last six months of just riding around is about half what I saw when I was doing sprints.
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Old 02-10-16, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
I would prefer to not be a sprinter that 'measures' as untrained. OTOH, I don't race or even do group rides often. So a good case could be made
that this 'problem' is simply in my head.

Based on what I have found in doing research, typing about it on the internet is unlikely to change things :-)

dave
Oh, were that it were so!

Serious answer: to improve your power at shorter intervals, you have to train it. The good news is that it doesn't have to be complicated. It could be as simple as picking a landmark like a tree or traffic sign and then sprinting for it. The bad news is that you really have to hit it HARD. And then repeat it.
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Old 02-10-16, 06:57 PM
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FWIW, I have done some maximum efforts (kind of aimed at 5 sec max power). However, my sense of things is that if you do these often you get 'better' at putting out your true max power, even if that # hasn't really changed. As I said/implied, it isn't something that I work on and that certainly is a factor here. OTOH I do regularly do intervals of varying lengths in the 100% to 200% of ftp range, which I would think would have some level of max power training effect. Or maybe not.

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Old 02-11-16, 03:59 AM
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There's an old expression that goes something like 'sprinters are born not made'. While you can improve your short term power with training if you happen to have picked parents that gave you a low % of fast twitch muscle fibres nothing can turn you into a sprinter. Also, I think everyone's short term power is more acutely affected by increasing years unfortunately.
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Old 02-11-16, 07:37 AM
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I agree with everyone here that seeing differences in max power output at very short time intervals vs longer time intervals is utterly normal. What you're missing is a sprint.

Some people are born with a sprint and they'd have it on the power profile right from the very beginning without even trying. There's a big genetic component.

Everybody (genetically a sprinter or not) can specifically work to develop their power over these short 5 sec and 1 min time periods, some people will be able to develop it more fully. But if you're working on your sprinting ability, that's going to take away from your ability to train up your power at longer time periods (like 20 min and 60 min). Some of that is just pure practicality but mostly what I'm saying is that the sprint workouts are intense. For older people, you might need more rest going in and also post-workout, compared to a 25 year old doing the same workout.

So my biggest question would be: Why work on your sprint?

Its important if you're doing mass start races. It's important on the track. It's useful if you're trying to hang with a lively group ride.

But if you're riding solo and doing endurance events or road time trials, no sprint is necessary. If you could get one at no training cost, sure, it would be nice to have it all. But to train to have one when you don't need it, and when that training will cut into your ability to train other aspects of your power profile, that is a mistake IMO.

Bottom line: train for what you are doing and don't worry about alleged "weaknesses" that don't impact what you're doing.

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Old 04-07-16, 10:12 PM
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V02 max peaks in your late 20s and slowly declines thereafter.

Endurance can go up forever.

You can train about 15% of your v02 max.
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Old 04-08-16, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Corbah
V02 max peaks in your late 20s and slowly declines thereafter.

Endurance can go up forever.

You can train about 15% of your v02 max.
Given how your body metabolizes stuff during maximal (and therefore very short) exercizing, is VO2 max important WRT sub one minute maximum power output?

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Old 04-08-16, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
Given how your body metabolizes stuff during maximal (and therefore very short) exercizing, is VO2 max important WRT sub one minute maximum power output?

dave
What is wrt?
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Old 04-08-16, 09:56 AM
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I've always been a good sprinter. I think a lot of it is technique. To get good at it if one isn't at all good might take a coach or another rider teaching to get the idea, then just sprinting for the fun of it from time to time. I really like hill sprints as I think they are good for leg strength and climbing power.

When preparing for my summer big rides, I make my way through the usual workout progression from base through the various intervals, gradually going to shorter intervals, speed work etc. About 6 weeks before an A event, I'd do hill sprints once a week, 6 X 45 seconds full gas standing X 5 minute recovery between. I think that's helpful for any sort of endurance ride. At 70 I can't hold that 45" anymore, but I could at 65 so I think that anaerobic endurance must drop off with age.
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Old 04-08-16, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Corbah
What is wrt?
with respect to
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Old 04-08-16, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
Given how your body metabolizes stuff during maximal (and therefore very short) exercizing, is VO2 max important WRT sub one minute maximum power output?

dave
I think it is. You're not going to be in a race and riding 15 miles per hour and then get on a 1 minute max. I mean, maybe some rare occasions but I wouldn't be training for those. You're going to be riding tempo or threshold for 5-10-15 minutes and THEN have to do a one minute max effort and that's when you're v02 work is going to come in handy.
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Old 04-08-16, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Corbah
I think it is. You're not going to be in a race and riding 15 miles per hour and then get on a 1 minute max. I mean, maybe some rare occasions but I wouldn't be training for those. You're going to be riding tempo or threshold for 5-10-15 minutes and THEN have to do a one minute max effort and that's when you're v02 work is going to come in handy.
But in the context of this thread, that is EXACTLY what is being discussed. When you look at 'Critical Power' at some time period (say 30 seconds) you measure your output under 'best case' conditions (as opposed to race conditions when you might be asked to put out your best for 30 seconds).

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Old 04-08-16, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC
But in the context of this thread, that is EXACTLY what is being discussed. When you look at 'Critical Power' at some time period (say 30 seconds) you measure your output under 'best case' conditions (as opposed to race conditions when you might be asked to put out your best for 30 seconds).

dave
Fair enough. Then for that sort of effort, you're probably better off sacrificing your v02 for freshness. My best 30 second power ever was right after the off season. But in an ideal world, you'll want to have the best possible v02 and be fresh. By how much does that change your output? That's a question for a scientific study.
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