When your legs don't want to recover?
06-22-16, 12:13 AM
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Perhaps that was the wrong term to use to describe it. More accurately, that lactic acid buildup burn at the top of a hard climb....if I go hard once (say a single 2-minute interval) on a given ride, my legs feel just like that while sitting on the couch or lying in bed hours or even a day or two later.
06-22-16, 10:30 AM
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Sought some race training advice here in another thread that has since run its course, and through that training regimen I've encountered significant troubles with recovery that have so far wrecked my season.
Although my mileage total for the year is at an all-time high (I was able to start earlier in the year) my mileage per week/month is right on-par with seasons past. But, on the advice of those on this forum, I began with heavy Z2 training and strict polarization, and so my power output per mile is drastically lower than any previous year. But the issue is that my legs and body have taken to becoming and staying sore from ANY ride of any output, and remaining there no matter my hydration, my eating, or rest time.
As an example, If I ride 30-40 miles at a Z2 (HR) pace, I'll be sore for days. If I do just one 3 minute interval (I've had to abandon every interval session this year after just 1-2 reps because my legs were already obliterated) it introduces throbbing pain in the legs that takes about two weeks to reside. I've only been in 2-3 hard group rides all year, and so my truly hard efforts have been limited, but that doesn't really explain why even a recovery ride (with HR in the 95-110 range) will leave me sore and lethargic for days. Now, admittedly, I don't take many days off, but any kind of hard effort is followed by legitimate, slow recovery days, so I'm by no means out punishing myself day after day.
I stay plenty hydrated, and eat more than enough. I follow every ride with a couple glasses of chocolate milk and immediately go for protein, carbs, or both, and always get a meal in within the hour. Interestingly, though, and a change from anything I've experienced before, is that any soreness I feel when I get off the bike is multiplied five-fold in the 2-3 hours after the ride...can feel just a little soreness/fatigue when I finish the ride and be in pain later. My legs and body just stay lethargic, sore, and weak all the time, every day.
The only thing I haven't done is take an extended rest period off the bike, but given how much pain is inflicted from even the easiest of rides, I just don't see it being beneficial...that I'll take a break, freshen up, and be wrecked again after the first ride anyway. I've taken 2-3 consecutive days off a couple of times and not recovered or freshened up at all.
Any thoughts, comments, suggestions to get past this?
Although my mileage total for the year is at an all-time high (I was able to start earlier in the year) my mileage per week/month is right on-par with seasons past. But, on the advice of those on this forum, I began with heavy Z2 training and strict polarization, and so my power output per mile is drastically lower than any previous year. But the issue is that my legs and body have taken to becoming and staying sore from ANY ride of any output, and remaining there no matter my hydration, my eating, or rest time.
As an example, If I ride 30-40 miles at a Z2 (HR) pace, I'll be sore for days. If I do just one 3 minute interval (I've had to abandon every interval session this year after just 1-2 reps because my legs were already obliterated) it introduces throbbing pain in the legs that takes about two weeks to reside. I've only been in 2-3 hard group rides all year, and so my truly hard efforts have been limited, but that doesn't really explain why even a recovery ride (with HR in the 95-110 range) will leave me sore and lethargic for days. Now, admittedly, I don't take many days off, but any kind of hard effort is followed by legitimate, slow recovery days, so I'm by no means out punishing myself day after day.
I stay plenty hydrated, and eat more than enough. I follow every ride with a couple glasses of chocolate milk and immediately go for protein, carbs, or both, and always get a meal in within the hour. Interestingly, though, and a change from anything I've experienced before, is that any soreness I feel when I get off the bike is multiplied five-fold in the 2-3 hours after the ride...can feel just a little soreness/fatigue when I finish the ride and be in pain later. My legs and body just stay lethargic, sore, and weak all the time, every day.
The only thing I haven't done is take an extended rest period off the bike, but given how much pain is inflicted from even the easiest of rides, I just don't see it being beneficial...that I'll take a break, freshen up, and be wrecked again after the first ride anyway. I've taken 2-3 consecutive days off a couple of times and not recovered or freshened up at all.
Any thoughts, comments, suggestions to get past this?
06-24-16, 06:26 AM
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Dude it's very simple. The only thing that takes the lactic acid out of your muscles is Vitamin C! Thats what is causing you this soreness. I've been doing this for over 20yrs. Been racing for 25. The first 5 yrs I was in constant pain from lactic acid. Tried everything under the sun, to not drinking milk, everything.. The trick is, as soon as you get off the bike take a 1000mg of vitamin C. I also have been drinking a recovery drink, Ultragen. Which has enabled me to train hard for multiple days in succession. Trust me. Plus, whats it gonna hurt? Vitamin C is water soluble and your body will pisss out what you don't need.
06-24-16, 07:32 AM
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Dude it's very simple. The only thing that takes the lactic acid out of your muscles is Vitamin C! Thats what is causing you this soreness. I've been doing this for over 20yrs. Been racing for 25. The first 5 yrs I was in constant pain from lactic acid. Tried everything under the sun, to not drinking milk, everything.. The trick is, as soon as you get off the bike take a 1000mg of vitamin C. I also have been drinking a recovery drink, Ultragen. Which has enabled me to train hard for multiple days in succession. Trust me. Plus, whats it gonna hurt? Vitamin C is water soluble and your body will pisss out what you don't need.
06-24-16, 09:28 AM
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Try it, it's Vitamin C, not crack.
06-24-16, 09:55 AM
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06-24-16, 10:41 AM
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Dude it's very simple. The only thing that takes the lactic acid out of your muscles is Vitamin C! Thats what is causing you this soreness. I've been doing this for over 20yrs. Been racing for 25. The first 5 yrs I was in constant pain from lactic acid. Tried everything under the sun, to not drinking milk, everything.. The trick is, as soon as you get off the bike take a 1000mg of vitamin C. I also have been drinking a recovery drink, Ultragen. Which has enabled me to train hard for multiple days in succession. Trust me. Plus, whats it gonna hurt? Vitamin C is water soluble and your body will pisss out what you don't need.
Vitamin C supplementation decreases training efficiency because it prevents some cellular adaptations to exercise.
Machka posted about this maybe a couple years ago. I used to take 1g after exercise. I cut that out. My performance improved.
There's a lot of Vitamin C BS out there on the web. I remember when I first started researching climate change, googling "climate change" gave 100 denier websites for every scientific one. When trying to decide who's on the right side of an issue, I always follow the money.
The Ultragen does do something positive. It's just an ordinary 3:1 carb/protein drink which does use whey protein isolate instead of the cheaper plain whey protein. I don't think the cost/benefit thing is there, though. It costs $1 per oz., which is robbery.
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06-24-16, 07:31 PM
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In addition to that Vitamin C, can cause gastrointestinal issues.
It also plays a role in increasing iron absorption. While that's a good thing for some people, like those who tend to be anaemic, it is not such a good thing in people who tend to have higher iron levels in their blood.
It also plays a role in increasing iron absorption. While that's a good thing for some people, like those who tend to be anaemic, it is not such a good thing in people who tend to have higher iron levels in their blood.
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06-24-16, 07:47 PM
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06-27-16, 03:33 PM
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My 2 cents here. I experienced almost exactly the same thing. Use of WKO4 revealed a fairly high training load for much too long. Took a week off and was right as rain. Plan to incorporate rest weeks every 4th week from now on and monitor training stress.
06-27-16, 09:17 PM
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What kind of %change in resting HR is typically considered go and no-go on training?
I took three days off last week (about the time I started this thread), and on the fourth day, my resting HR was 41. Did a moderately tough (Z3/4) group ride that day and felt stronger and fresher than I have in quite some time. Next day, resting HR was 47, legs were a little sore, but toughed out a 3x10 interval session. Took the following day off, then did a 65-mile ride, 90% of which was at Z1/2 (HR of 95-120). Resting HR was still 46-47. Next day, same resting HR, but went out to ride and HR wouldn't climb at all, ie overtrained.
I took three days off last week (about the time I started this thread), and on the fourth day, my resting HR was 41. Did a moderately tough (Z3/4) group ride that day and felt stronger and fresher than I have in quite some time. Next day, resting HR was 47, legs were a little sore, but toughed out a 3x10 interval session. Took the following day off, then did a 65-mile ride, 90% of which was at Z1/2 (HR of 95-120). Resting HR was still 46-47. Next day, same resting HR, but went out to ride and HR wouldn't climb at all, ie overtrained.
06-28-16, 02:30 AM
#38
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What kind of %change in resting HR is typically considered go and no-go on training?
I took three days off last week (about the time I started this thread), and on the fourth day, my resting HR was 41. Did a moderately tough (Z3/4) group ride that day and felt stronger and fresher than I have in quite some time. Next day, resting HR was 47, legs were a little sore, but toughed out a 3x10 interval session. Took the following day off, then did a 65-mile ride, 90% of which was at Z1/2 (HR of 95-120). Resting HR was still 46-47. Next day, same resting HR, but went out to ride and HR wouldn't climb at all, ie overtrained.
I took three days off last week (about the time I started this thread), and on the fourth day, my resting HR was 41. Did a moderately tough (Z3/4) group ride that day and felt stronger and fresher than I have in quite some time. Next day, resting HR was 47, legs were a little sore, but toughed out a 3x10 interval session. Took the following day off, then did a 65-mile ride, 90% of which was at Z1/2 (HR of 95-120). Resting HR was still 46-47. Next day, same resting HR, but went out to ride and HR wouldn't climb at all, ie overtrained.
There is as much discipline in resting while training, as there is in the training itself. I would take the cue from linsdog and give yourself a full week's rest, then come back gradually rather than jumping in with 65-milers.
06-28-16, 04:30 AM
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06-28-16, 10:37 PM
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And herewith we have the evidence that you don't seem to understand the need for rest and muscle recuperation. While you seem to have a good level of aerobic fitness with such a low heartrate, you aren't giving your muscles enough time to recover, and importantly, build strength.
There is as much discipline in resting while training, as there is in the training itself. I would take the cue from linsdog and give yourself a full week's rest, then come back gradually rather than jumping in with 65-milers.
There is as much discipline in resting while training, as there is in the training itself. I would take the cue from linsdog and give yourself a full week's rest, then come back gradually rather than jumping in with 65-milers.
06-29-16, 06:10 AM
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Right now, I am thinking the people who responded have simply wasted their time.
06-29-16, 11:27 AM
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Dude it's very simple. The only thing that takes the lactic acid out of your muscles is Vitamin C! Thats what is causing you this soreness. I've been doing this for over 20yrs. Been racing for 25. The first 5 yrs I was in constant pain from lactic acid. Tried everything under the sun, to not drinking milk, everything.. The trick is, as soon as you get off the bike take a 1000mg of vitamin C. I also have been drinking a recovery drink, Ultragen. Which has enabled me to train hard for multiple days in succession. Trust me. Plus, whats it gonna hurt? Vitamin C is water soluble and your body will pisss out what you don't need.
--
It has been generally accepted that increasing the concentrations of antioxidants within a muscle cell should provide greater protection against oxidative stress and should reduce fatigue.[3,4] However, Gomez-Cabrera and assistants [2] concluded in their study that administration of vitamin C significantly (P = 0.014) impaired endurance capacity probably because it prevents some cellular adaptations to exercise. They said: “We were surprised to see that vitamin C prevents these beneficial effects of training.” Reactive oxygen species formed in exercise activate mitochondrial biogenesis and the expression of antioxidant enzymes in skeletal muscle but vitamin C administration prevents the activation
06-29-16, 12:23 PM
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What kind of %change in resting HR is typically considered go and no-go on training?
I took three days off last week (about the time I started this thread), and on the fourth day, my resting HR was 41. Did a moderately tough (Z3/4) group ride that day and felt stronger and fresher than I have in quite some time. Next day, resting HR was 47, legs were a little sore, but toughed out a 3x10 interval session. Took the following day off, then did a 65-mile ride, 90% of which was at Z1/2 (HR of 95-120). Resting HR was still 46-47. Next day, same resting HR, but went out to ride and HR wouldn't climb at all, ie overtrained.
I took three days off last week (about the time I started this thread), and on the fourth day, my resting HR was 41. Did a moderately tough (Z3/4) group ride that day and felt stronger and fresher than I have in quite some time. Next day, resting HR was 47, legs were a little sore, but toughed out a 3x10 interval session. Took the following day off, then did a 65-mile ride, 90% of which was at Z1/2 (HR of 95-120). Resting HR was still 46-47. Next day, same resting HR, but went out to ride and HR wouldn't climb at all, ie overtrained.
The other option would be to buy a power meter to go off it for training instead of HR. You may find that even if you HR isn't climbing, you are hitting your goal power numbers and are in fact not overtrained but where you want to be. Although that wouldn't explain that leg soreness you are talking about, unless it's bike fit related.
06-29-16, 07:27 PM
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The volume you are talking about doesn't sound like you should be overtrained unless you are new to riding. I'm 33 and avg 14 hours a week with no days off (I supplement very easy rides for being completely off the bike) and don't experience the things you describe. If you've checked diet then I'd go see a doctor as others have suggested.
06-30-16, 10:14 AM
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The other option would be to buy a power meter to go off it for training instead of HR. You may find that even if you HR isn't climbing, you are hitting your goal power numbers and are in fact not overtrained but where you want to be. Although that wouldn't explain that leg soreness you are talking about, unless it's bike fit related.
Yes, the soreness doesn't make sense. Can't imagine what kind of stress would be required to be that sore after just riding your bike. Lethargy, low power output, loss of appetite, high resting heart rate are signs of over training, regardless of the training type. Intense soreness is a transient condition that would normally resolve itself one way or another.
As far as overtraining, I've never had a loss of appetite, and my resting HR is always between 41-48, whether rested or not. The main thing I seem to notice is muscle soreness, lethargy on the bike, and my mind will be kind of hazy, lacking focus and concentration at work.
06-30-16, 10:22 AM
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As far as overtraining, I've never had a loss of appetite, and my resting HR is always between 41-48, whether rested or not. The main thing I seem to notice is muscle soreness, lethargy on the bike, and my mind will be kind of hazy, lacking focus and concentration at work.
GO AND VISIT YOUR DOCTOR. The problems you are describe can't be solved via a forum since the as everyone else has said this doesn't seem to be an issue with simply overtraining or not recovering enough. Why not go see a doctor?
07-02-16, 08:40 AM
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My two bobs worth is that what your suffering from could well be Magnesium deficiency. That or another mineral deficiency/imbalance.
Your muscles need Magnesium to relax and calcium to contract. Sore muscles that don't recover is a classic symptom of magnesium deficiency. Magnesium deficiency is VERY hard to diagnose. Your doctor will do a blood test and say that your magnesium levels are OK but the problem is that your blood only has 1% of the magnesium in your body and your body does its best to maintain blood levels at the expense of your muscles which is where you want it.
Magnesium levels are VERY hard to improve as well because unfortunately, the more you NEED magnesium, the LESS you absorb it. Its about differentials.
See this link to start with,
Magnesium: This Invisible Deficiency Can Harm Your Health
Anthony
Your muscles need Magnesium to relax and calcium to contract. Sore muscles that don't recover is a classic symptom of magnesium deficiency. Magnesium deficiency is VERY hard to diagnose. Your doctor will do a blood test and say that your magnesium levels are OK but the problem is that your blood only has 1% of the magnesium in your body and your body does its best to maintain blood levels at the expense of your muscles which is where you want it.
Magnesium levels are VERY hard to improve as well because unfortunately, the more you NEED magnesium, the LESS you absorb it. Its about differentials.
See this link to start with,
Magnesium: This Invisible Deficiency Can Harm Your Health
Anthony
07-02-16, 12:38 PM
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I don't even have much muscle soreness from a 40k TT, which is an hour at 100%. I do interval workouts routinely with power targets well over threshold and don't have much muscle soreness from those either. A little soreness, but the pleasant kind and I can ride this types of efforts for 2-3 consecutive days, no problem.
This is why everyone is saying there's something wrong. Either you have a low threshold for describing muscle pain/soreness and you are calling something pain that I wouldn't OR there is something seriously wrong with your muscles.
If the former, you're probably over trained & need significant time off the bike. If the latter, you need to see a doctor because untreated exertional myopathies can result in muscle damage, the toxic byproducts of which can lead to renal failure.
In short: you seem to have a really significant problem that you're trying to address with insignificant changes to your training. So best case scenario is you continue to spin your wheels with this stuff. Worst case scenario is you cause yourself permanent harm.
07-02-16, 01:04 PM
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When my legs get constantly sore, I don't ride again until they're not. That's more than a couple of days, usually. Fitness returns within a week of so of riding again (even after taking 6-7 days off), but mentally and physically it's so much better. I also start destroying myself with a foam roller multiple times a day. Sometimes that can make an immediate and profound difference on soreness, especially if I've been neglecting it.
I also agree with Xherion about recovery rides. I find them to be totally pointless and a waste of time. I never do a ride below z2 wattage and if I feel like I can't at least do that I'll take the day (and the next one) off.
I also agree with Xherion about recovery rides. I find them to be totally pointless and a waste of time. I never do a ride below z2 wattage and if I feel like I can't at least do that I'll take the day (and the next one) off.