nycphotography

So I'm progressing nicely on my training this year... decent base, then more intensity laying on intervals and strength to build power, with an off week whenever I feel recovery is lagging.

Power has come along well.. but I have a question about "at limit" efforts.

It seems my respiration is the limit and not my heart rate or lactate / pain limit.

IOW, when I am climbing over threshhold, it seems my body hits a respiration cap before I hit a lactate pain or HR limit.

What does that mean for training, and how do I target training (or technique if it matters) to raise that limit?

Carbonfiberboy 

What respiration limit? You mean panting or passing out?

rubiksoval

Assuming you have healthy lungs, your respiration (as in your ability to breathe??) isn't a limiter, though your body's ability to utilize the oxygen you do breathe in may be (as it is for everyone).

In any case, keep doing what you're doing. It's a process, and a long one at that.

CliffordK

It depends on what you mean by "respiration limit".

Somewhere around 25 MPH (flat), I'm wheezing, which I think caps my actual continuous power output at around that level.

I think more training may help some, but it will likely be a hard uphill battle, so I'm likely better off just aiming to hold it near that threshold longer.

If this is related to what you're finding, and you are trying to race, then perhaps going to a physician would help. There are a number of cyclists that have exercise induced asthma and take medications to help with it.

nycphotography

I mean my ability to get enough air.

When I was riding a few years ago, I would be gasping but my HR would go to max and more or less stay there.

This time around, I'm gasping, but my HR doesn't go to max. It seems like I should have some more top end that I'm just not able to access.

cyclezen

There is an accepted measurement for what might be your ability to intake O2 and acquire it - VO2 MAX.
It has genetic limitations, but is greatly affected by your body's current physiologic condition and can and does change over time.
You can google for detail.
As with all things physiologic, your actual ability to process oxygen is not just tied to the volume but also the condition of the lungs and the ability of the blood to 'absorb' the O2, blood hematocrit. Which is the big deal, and what EPO is all about...
Determining the current VO2 MAX is a big deal test, and often brings to light other issues which you might nto want to know about... at least as another limitation.

These daze Data is readily at hand for most of us. More than we really know what to do with. It's quite easy to look down at your latest WhizBang Komputa and see an awful set of numbers saying you're max'd. Or, you can look up, see the break goin up the road and make your decisions based on how much motivation you really have. If it don;t work, you'll find out...
Having ridden for 15 yrs before the first cycle computers (avocet, pacer...), one can ride competitive without the data... You get to know yourself...

cyclezen

some numbers from here: VO2 max World Records - some names you might recognize - belief is what you bring...

92.5 Greg LeMond cycling US professional cyclist
92.0 Matt Carpenter runner Pikes Peak marathon course record holder 92.0 Tore Ruud Hofstad Norwegian cross country skier achieved in 2005 91.0 Gunde Svan Swedish XC-skier won a total of 4x gold, 1x silver and 1x bronze medals at the Winter Olympics.
91.0 Harri Kirvesniem Finnish cross country skier
89.5 Kilian Jornet Ultr-endurance runner from a test in 2012 by Daniel Brotons Cuixart, a sports specialist at the University of Barcelona.
88.0 Miguel Indurain cycling professional cyclist 88.0 Anders Aukland cross country skier achived 2005, listed in an article on www.fasterskier.com.
87.4 Marius Bakken runner Norwegian 5k record holder
87.0 Jon Anders Gaustad cross country skier achived 2005, listed in an article on www.fasterskier.com.
86.4 Edvad Boasson Hagen road cyclist from Norway and Team Columbia-HTC. Figure taken from article on syklingens verden website, possibly from 2008.
86.0 Thor Hushovd cycling listed in an article on www.fasterskier.com.
86.0 Ole Einar Bjœrndalen biathlon listed in an article on www.fasterskier.com.
85.0 Dave Bedford runner 10k world record holder
85.0 John Ngugi distance runner World XC Champion
84.6 Chris Fromme cyclist from a test at the GlaxoSmithKline Human Performance lab in London in August 2015. His weight on the testing day was 69.9kg.
84.4 Steve Prefontaine runner from the US
84.0 Lance Armstrong cycling professional cyclist
83.5 Mark Walters cycling a pro-cyclist, former Navigators team member, won Philadelphia. This score was from the peak of his career. (personal communication, heard first hand from Mark himself)

nycphotography

So this is my VO2max limit that I'm hitting, even though my HR is not coming up to max?

Therefore, it is time to suck it up and do VO2max intervals?

Carbonfiberboy 

One's max HR normally drops about 1 beat per year, so there's that.

It's always time to do VO2max intervals . . . unless one doesn't have the fitness to sustain hard efforts for long enough to actually do the intervals. You pretty much ignore HR and just listen to your breathing.

On a long hill with an even gradient, gradually increase your pace until you are breathing as fast as possible while still breathing deeply. This will take a few minutes. Then increase the pace again until you switch over to panting, deep breathing being no longer possible. Observe your gear and cadence. Return to the bottom of the hill and start off using this gear and cadence. If you are fit, you should be able to do a set of 4 x 8', 4' between intervals.

Or if 8' is too long, do a set of 4 X however long you can hold it. 4 X 3' works too, but at an even harder level, so the length of your interval should correspond to how far you are above lactate threshold. This is pretty hard to do with a HRM because it lags so badly, which is why power is a preferred metric for these things. Or just get a feel for it.

OTOH, my wife and I just returned from a 10-day hike during which I was never out of zone 1. After resting for a week, we went out with friends for a hard tandem ride. I easily breezed past my usual lactate threshold without even breathing hard. We were fast, even though we hadn't been on the bike for almost a month. So it ain't all about high end intervals. 4 hours/day of zone 1, 5 days/week for a couple of weeks works like a charm. Hiking mostly between 6 and 7 thousand feet probably helped a lot back here at sea level, too. EPO is good stuff.

TimothyH

What is your heart rate now when you are gasping vs your max a few years ago?

It is entirely possible that your max hear rate has dropped significantly. When did you last test your max?

My guess is that if you went to max and "stayed there" then it wasn't your true max heart rate. Max heart rate is not sustainable for long periods of time.


-Tim-

cyclezen

VO2max curve is typically not linear or continuous slope.
usually it's starts leveling well BEFORE you get near any max intensity of work.
google VO2max curve and you'll see examples.
as you get older/less conditioned the leveling comes sooner, and lower, in the test cycle.

without a hematocit reading at the time of the test, it's only telling you how big a wind bag you are.
then you should also have a blood gas test which measures both O2 and CO2
you can buy a pulse Oximeter for cheap and get cheap results or use the smartphone and get some fun numbers which can't mean anything or just make sure they also do a SpO2 test when you have your comprehensive blood panel done.
Blood chemistry can vary quite a bit, dependin... but if it's way off, that will show and it's a good thing to know...

here's a fun factoid list of sports
A Guide to VO2 Max

nycphotography

I'm 49 y/o now.

10(ish) years ago, I observed 198HR climbing bear mountain and also in some park races (CP & PP).

This year I have observed 186 climbing Alpine and doing Hincapie intervals on the spin/trainer.

But my recent trials up Alpine haven't seen HR above ~180.

C_Heath

my limit is when the tip of my nose starts to tingle. If I dont back off, it will spread to my face. After that, I dont know because Ive always backed off. Really dont want to test that water lol.

CliffordK

Max HR is supposed to decrease with age. At least there are algorithms to calculate that.

What is My Maximum Heart Rate? | Runner's World

Max HR = 220 – age
Max HR = 208 – 0.7(age)
Max HR = 207 – 0.7(age)

So, it wouldn't be unexpected for your heart rate to drop by about 10 BPM over the last decade (also with training).

Dropping by 6 BPM in a year may be something different. Effort?

caloso

Concur.

nycphotography

That is my plan.

Just want to make sure I avoid Einsteinian Insanity. Yanno: “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”

nycphotography

May have been a function of training load... took a rest week and today my HR was high while respiration was not yet maxed out.

Although I haven't tried the climb again.

berner

People who play wind instruments or have taken voice lessons over long periods of time develop tremendous lung capacity. The operatic voice will fill a large auditorium seating, say 5000 people with an un-amplified voice which is quite amazing in person. It also turns out some asthmatics will undergo breathing lessons. I'm asthmatic as well so I pay close attention to breath. Sometimes when I'm tired near the end of a long ride there is unnecessary tension throughout the entire body including those muscles responsible for breathing. Although I'll never be a "contenda" I can improve my situation noticeably.

People who do yoga spend a lot of time on breadth control. I've not read every yoga book available but the one linked here has much clear detail on breathing mechanics. https://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Anatomy-...f=zg_bs_4653_5

Probably most here are familiar with the picture of a runner who having crossed the finish line, will bend over, hands on knees just breathing. In that position, gravity will expand the chest cavity permitting deeper breaths. Yoga exercises strengthen those muscles that expand the chest for deeper breaths. The yoga book linked above shows where those muscles are located and how they work.

nycphotography

Fascinating. Thanks for the link.