rubiksoval

A stimulus is a stimulus. It may be an acute stimulus in the form of a specific workout that stresses the body in a new way and/or it may be a chronic stimulus that leads to overreaching and supercompensation once recovery is complete.

Your question about high volume is simply too broad. Every single person will react differently. Personally, I'm a pretty successful cat 1 and this year I'm averaging about 9 hours a week. I know another more successful cat 1 that averages closer to 15, and yet another ex pro who is still quite successful as a 1 on 4-6 hours. There are simply too many factors to say that x is good for y, especially when it may be terrible for z.

You say you did a crap ton of workouts for 10 weeks and didn't improve. How do you measure improvement? What specifically are you trying to improve, and why, and what would be a tangible improvement in that regard?

Frankly, for someone to say they're doing 2-3 hour sweetspot sessions but not improving is really strange. Very few people can just go pop off a 2-3 hour sweetspot session. Personally, I've done one 3 hour sweetspot session and it took about five tries and I haven't been able/inclined to repeat it since.

I genuinely can't imagine what you're trying to improve if you have legitimately completed the workouts you claim to have completed as simply completing them would in and of itself be a marked improvement. I.e., those workouts ARE the improvement.

rubiksoval

Ah, come on. Clearly that's not true or you'd be on your way to a stars and stripes jersey in a few weeks time. You're not getting significantly faster for two years running every time you do intervals.

Heathpack 

@Dreww10, why is it that you have failed to ever reply to the questions asking your age, gender & what you're training for? Do you think the same answers are going to apply to any generic cyclist and that these factors (that have repeatedly been asked about) are not important? Why do you think people should continue to answer your questions when you don't answer theirs?

There may be a bit of a clue in your description of the intervals as being "grinding" and not productive of improvement.

Dreww10

Appreciate the response, and your real-world example of training volumes for riders at such a level certainly helps to answer the initial question.

In response to you, the tangible improvement would be gains in FTP (ie. an across-the-board marked gain in performance).

Dreww10

34/M. Working to improve in all respects, but at this point, simply producing gains in FTP is the goal. If/when I can make marked improvements, then specializing for given scenarios(racing, etc.) can come into play. The sweet spot work has definitely helped in the endurance department, so I'm not focused on that per se, although I'm certainly aware that aerobic zone work has to remain some part of a training regimen.

And "grinding" has been taken a bit too literal. By that I mean "suffering."

Dreww10

Getting off-topic here, but my sweet spot range is 155-165 bpm, and I can ride there without pause for 90-120 minutes. The only issue is that I don't produce an enviable amount of power there, and really don't produce much additional power above that, either. But anyway, back to the topic at hand.

gregf83 

Some history on your riding would be helpful. How many years have you been riding and at what volume? What were you doing prior to starting your 10 wk block of intervals?

Your program for this year sounds a little backwards in that you started with low volume and high intensity and have now switched to higher volume and lower intensity. Generally, it's better to build a decent base with higher volume and relatively lower intensity rides and then increase intensity as you build to a peak.

One suggestion would be to find a decent group to ride with, preferably one where you have trouble keeping up. It's tough to maintain motivation grinding out intervals on your own all the time. Having others to ride with often helps one to push beyond their perceived personal limits.

Edit: One other question, how are you measuring improvement? You referenced your sweet spot intensity using HR so I'm presuming you don't have a powermeter.

12strings

Oh, but I do. I just never keep that up for more than 3-5 weeks before life busy-ness causes a 2-3 week (or last fall, a 2-month T-giving till after new year's) break in riding. Hard once or twice a week, for about a month, and reach or exceed my previous peak fitness, then drop off for a few weeks and don't do much...then repeat. But I am now defintily A LOT stronger and fitter than I was 2 years ago...I suppose I just haven't kept it up long enough to plateau yet... 6-7 weeks was probably the longest...but it showed no signs of slowing at that point.

Carbonfiberboy 

Excellent points from Greg, as usual. Also without a PM, I've always measured improvement against strong riders with whom I've been riding and competing for years. If they don't drop me, I'm doing super. Plus as you say, killer interval work is automatic.

12strings

As a follow-up, I wonder if my intervals (2 sets of 5x30sprint/30rest...20 minutes total)...actually DO increase in intensity as I progress, since I don't have a power meter and go by feel:

So, week one, my all-out sprint might be a certain watts, but after a few weeks my all-out is a higher wattage...is, I'm working harder, therefore continually increasing the intensity and need for adaptation?

Whereas if I were using a power meter aiming for a certain wattage each sprint, I would actually be working my body LESS hard after a few weeks unless I kept increasing that power goal?

Perhaps that explains why I've NEVER seen a plateau when I've been training this way...I only plateau and decrease when I stop doing the work. (Or it could just be because I don't continue long enough to plateau.).

rubiksoval

This discussion is getting stranger. You guys need some real actual feedback instead of just going off hr and feelings. Do a race or a hard group ride or even some timed climbs a few times and then start comparing improvements and plateaus and the like.

12strings

I am going by:

-a short 10% average climb that I do often. When I train, my times improve quickly. (I currently hold the strava KOM, from last fall. I took 2 months off this winter, then after a month of re- training matched my KOM time with a significantly less taxing effort.)

-a regular fast group ride that culminates with a 3 mile climb that gets gradually steeper. I am now at a point where I can stay with and challenge the group leaders at that point, and feel good doing it, rather than being at the back of the group and struggling like I would have in January, or have at other times when I am not in good fitness.

What can I say, I'm cheap. There's little chance of me ever buying a power meter, or even a heart rate monitor for that matter.

caloso

I agree. You can still get decent feedback without a PM by using a benchmark road segment.

rubiksoval

Again, feelings don't really mean anything.

Your post is filled with hyperbole and exaggeration. Your claim was that intervals caused you to significantly improve every time you did them, and for two years going.

From there we've gotten to the point where your improvement is seemingly centered around tying one of your strava koms and it didn't feel tough.

Outrageous claims call for outrageous evidence, or something of the like, so I will maintain my initial assertion. Shouldn't be too tough to knock some significant time off that KOM or to start dropping those guys on group rides with a solid block of training if you're constantly improving so much. And from there...the world!

12strings

Sorry, I'm not trying to make any outrageous claims, simply this observation from my own experience:

--When I train with 30-second sprint intervals, I improve...noticeably...within 2 weeks it is noticeable, both in comparison to other group riders and in times up the many local hills.

My point is simply that I have not experience plateau while training this way, and my guess is that it is for one, or all of the following 3 reasons:

1. I have never continued this pattern long enough or consistently enough to level off...6 weeks was probably the longest, and it's normally more like 2-3 before I slack off.

2. I'm still seeing "newbie gains", which keep getting repeated after my periods of laziness.

3. Continued gains depend on continually increasing training intensity, and since my efforts are based on how I feel, my "all-out" effort continues to increase, causing further adaptation.

But I'm just guessing...

My main pint is that I attribute my current level of fitness primarily to my own lackluster level of commitment to training...not to an ineffective training method in which I am working really hard but seeing hi gains...I've never experienced that.

Dreww10

Six years. I ride year-round, so the most recent winter involved a couple of non-successive weeks off and a scaling back of volume/intensity to recharge.

As stated above, there was never a lengthy stopping point in riding ... base was done all last fall and this winter.

I've mixed a few high intensity group rides in this spring, as well.

I do most of my intervals on the same stretch of road. When wind isn't a major factor, just seeing the average speed over that distance is a pretty good indicator (they're always pretty well within a range of .2-.3 mph of where I was last year and where I started this spring). A 40k TT loop is also utilized from time to time. And seeing improvements in speed at lower intensities seems like a decent indicator of fitness, as well, unless I'm wrong.

gregf83 

If you've been riding consistently for 6 yrs I wouldn't expect big gains in FTP regardless of how much you train. I recommend getting a powermeter though if you want to optimize your training.

Having a powermeter would allow you to measure your power profile which provides an indication of the type of rider you are. Maybe you're a sprinter with a relatively higher % of fast twitch muscles in which case you might want to focus on your strengths and forget about TTs.

The other benefit of a powermeter is to tune your efforts a little better. You mentioned you can do Sweet Spot intervals for 2-3 hrs at a time. That would be output power at the very low end of sweet spot and more likely tempo. VO2Max and shorter types of intervals are harder to do without a powermeter.

Have you tried racing? It's possible to do well without a high FTP.

Also, one final question if you don't mind, what is your weight? If you're light you will have lower absolute power output even if you manage to have a decent power/weight ratio.

rubiksoval

OP, I imagine all of these intervals you think you're doing are not actually being done at the necessary intensity.

I would bet a significant amount of money you're not doing 2+ hours of sweetspot, ever, and are very likely not going nearly hard enough on that large variety of intervals you're doing.

So with all that said, it's very likely that you're simply plateauing (or maybe you're not even plateauing but don't have the necessary indicators to tell you you're actually improving) because you're not actually doing the training you think you're doing.

As someone who became a cat 1 without a powermeter, and now only trains with a powermeter, I can tell you firsthand how enormous a difference in my performance it's made, even though I already had 7+ years of high level training and racing before I started using one. And that is primarily down to completely changing how I actually ride and train (because what I thought was hard and a good workout before was actually quite poor in comparison to what I do now).

Feelings and average speed really don't tell you much on their own without a lot of context to go with them.

Dreww10

177-178 lbs.

Dreww10

I'm as close to the edge of not being able to finish the session as possible, every time. There'd be no sense in doing them otherwise. I was recently on a group ride and was pushed to and held at 3-4 bpm above what I typically do my longer intervals at and completely cracked (as in could barely even pedal home) within 10 minutes, so going by HR, a 20 minute interval, much less two of them, wouldn't be possible at a higher HR. Based on that unscientific math, I'd say I'm going plenty hard. But, no question a power meter would solve a lot.

Dreww10

After putting some additional thought to this, I may be able to shed some light on the power profile, using HR data.

My all-out 12-mile TT average is 22.6 mph, with a maximum HR of 185 and average of 178 (lower end of Z5).

Over the same course, performed in laps, I average 22.0 mph for 45 miles with a maximum HR of 170 and average of 155 (sweet spot session).

I realize this isn't as concrete as power meter data, but as you can see, the longer-duration power mostly levels off at or slightly above the sweet spot zone. That said, my short burst (2 minutes or less/sprinting) performance is pretty comparable to riders much faster than myself. My 5-, 10-, and 20-minute interval average speeds are typically only slightly higher than my 12-mile TT, again, because power is possibly leveled-off.

TexMac

Think you were missing HIIT 30sec or 1 minute intervals. Friels posted an intensive test done that showed most improvement is achieved by mixin VO2Max (20 sec to 4 mins) and TT intervals (6-20 mins)

Dreww10

I started the year there with tabatas up to 2-2.5 minute intervals, but all my research seemed to suggest lengthier reps were key to FTP improvement so I gradually added time and/or increased effort for the 5-7 minute stuff. Haven't done anything less than 5 minutes in the last 3 months.

12strings

This likely means you haven't ridden as hard as you possibly can for at least 3 months, maybe longer?

I agree that some 30sec., or even shorter intervals at max exertion might be what you are missing to jump start you out of your current level. Never going all-out means you are always holding back, ie, even on a 2 minute interval, you are thinking about what level you can sustain for 2 minutes.

You said your max power is lower than others, right? You need to work on that too. If you increase your Max power significantly through sprint work and standing starts, and uphill out of the saddle efforts, there's no way that won't also help your longer efforts.

TexMac

Good points. Just curious or maybe i missed it but are you training with power or HR? Do you know your FTP?
What has worked for me when doing those longer intervals, i try to cover the over/under part. Eg. if my FTP is 250 watts i would do one 15 minute interval at 230-240 watts and the second 15 minutes hold 250-260w or one 20 minutes interval where for 2 minutes i would hold 230-240w and next 2 minutes 250-260 watts, keep alternating for 20 minutes total. Before my collarbone injury in April, doing these workouts, i gained 35 watts in 3 months and a friend that i shared these workouts with gained a whopping 45 watts, same length of time. The difference being the other guy has been cycling for 6 years and had never done any intervals, just weekend rides and he got tired of being dropped every weekend. I'm Just getting back and i've lost 30 watts (current ftp 230w) due to the time missed with injury but i'll be shooting for 3 or 4 minutes VO2Max and 15-20 mins ftp intervals plus a 3 hr Saturday ride.