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Old 04-03-17, 03:15 PM   #26
wolfchild
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
You lose fat with a calorie deficit.

You looses a lot more then just weight with a calorie deficit and starvation dieting: you loose muscle, you loose strength, you loose athletic performance, you compromise recovery ability after exercise and you screw up your metabolism and end up getting overweight...If fat loss is all about calorie deficit as you say, than why are there thousands of people out there who struggle to loose fat even after being in calorie deficit and practising all kind of crash diets.
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Old 04-03-17, 03:21 PM   #27
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If find it both funny and sad that in discussions about fat/weight loss people always seem to end up arguing about false dichotomies. The most effective approach is not just diet, nor is it just steady state cardio, or HIIT or weight-training. The most effective approach is all of the above.
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Old 04-03-17, 03:36 PM   #28
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You looses a lot more then just weight with a calorie deficit and starvation dieting: you loose muscle, you loose strength, you loose athletic performance, you compromise recovery ability after exercise and you screw up your metabolism and end up getting overweight...
Yes. This is true. It's unfortunate, but that doesn't make it not true. Of course, you can make the situation less bad even if you can't make it go away entirely. (Eat a protein rich diet and lift weights while you lose.)

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If fat loss is all about calorie deficit as you say, than why are there thousands of people out there who struggle to loose fat even after being in calorie deficit and practising all kind of crash diets.
Well that's a broad brush kind of question. We'd have to talk to some of these individuals to find out what's really going on:

* I heard about a lady who got fat eating X calories a day. She drank a bottle of wine every evening and didn't realize that it has calories.
* I've heard of lots of people who think they're burning 1,500 calories an hour on the bike.
* Lots of people lose weight on an unsustainable crash diet, then gain it back when they stop.
* Etc.
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Old 04-03-17, 03:43 PM   #29
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@wolfchild

An option for people who are at their goal weight but not their ideal body composition is to eat at maintenance levels (eg the same number of calories that you burn in a day, such that your weight doesn't change) and follow a progressive resistance program. This will build muscle and lose fat - but not quickly. The process is slow and best suited for those who are overfat at their ideal weight.
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Old 04-03-17, 03:47 PM   #30
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Loose (adjective) = opposite of tight
Lose (verb) = opposite of gain
They are pronounced differently, too.

It's a common spelling error.
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Old 04-03-17, 04:54 PM   #31
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I'm in a similar boat as you (5'9", 156lbs). I weighed 165 after the holidays, and lost 10 lbs mostly fat, while increasing leg strength, in about 6 weeks after new year's.
1. 20- minute Hiit sessions on an indoor bike twice a week. This one: https://youtu.be/08f0qFwtuf0
2. Twice a week "weight" training (mostly push-ups, planks, lunges, air-squats, pull-ups, and other body-weight stuff).
3. Just trying to eat whole foods, with no sugar splurges.

Hiit works by raising your metabolism even when you aren't working out. Weight training raises your metabolism because muscle burns calories just by existing. I refuse to count calories, too much work. Just find filling snacks that are good for you. I have no doubt I could easily get down to 150 or below if I did this same thing with a bit more frequency and eating discipline.

(Also, I have the advantage of having pretty large legs from 17 years of playing soccer) so my 156lbs makes me look fairly skinny for a 36 yr old...155 was my high school soccer weight.)

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Old 04-03-17, 04:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
@wolfchild

An option for people who are at their goal weight but not their ideal body composition is to eat at maintenance levels (eg the same number of calories that you burn in a day, such that your weight doesn't change) and follow a progressive resistance program. This will build muscle and lose fat - but not quickly. The process is slow and best suited for those who are overfat at their ideal weight.
This is good advice. I would just add that for someone who wanted to speed the process...doing both Hiit and weights will really transform your body.

Just alternate days, so you aren't totally exhausted when you start to lift weights, or don't have tired muscles when you are trying to do a fast high intensity workout.
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Old 04-03-17, 05:01 PM   #33
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But is your goal to be lighter on the scale, be leaner or become a stronger cyclist? A lot of times those goals can be mutually exclusive.
Mostly to become a stronger cyclist, and fitter / leaner in general. I'm not overly concerned with actual weight as long as the total amount of fat is lower, and muscle mass is increased.

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It's not that you want to lose weight. You want to lose fat. I mean, you could amputate your arm, you'd weigh less and have an instant boost to your VO2max, but that isn't what you want.

You lose fat with a calorie deficit. You don't do it by "shocking your body," or "jump starting your metabolism" or with a "detox" or "cleanse" or "eating clean" or being a vegetarian or paleo or keto eater or anything else except burning more calories than you eat. Just regular, old fashioned portion control. Eat the amount of food your grand parents ate.
Exactly. I want less fat & more muscle. Have a better power to weight ratio is good for cycling too, of course, so I'm not looking to "bulk up" - just add lean muscle.

Good advice on diet. I'm not on any fad diets - just trying to reduce overall calories to a suitable level for my activity and take care of what I eat.
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Old 04-03-17, 05:04 PM   #34
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5'10", 158 and want to lose fat?

Why? What are your goals?
Lose the excess belly & butt fat, develop more strength everywhere, improve body posture and increase endurance.
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Old 04-03-17, 05:13 PM   #35
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Mostly to become a stronger cyclist, and fitter / leaner in general. I'm not overly concerned with actual weight as long as the total amount of fat is lower, and muscle mass is increased.



Exactly. I want less fat & more muscle. Have a better power to weight ratio is good for cycling too, of course, so I'm not looking to "bulk up" - just add lean muscle.

Start lifting weights and doing strength training. Don't worry about getting too big. It's very difficult to get too big from lifting when riding a bike a lot.
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Old 04-03-17, 05:16 PM   #36
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A few other things to throw out is that it's possible to consume too few calories, and the calorie deficit can actually throw your body into starvation mode which will affect your ability to get leaner. Also, your body adjusts to routine, so as you get used to what you're doing, it takes less effort and energy to do it so you get less net effect. Changing up your routine will help. I would recommend talking to a certified nutritionist or trainer to help you achieve your specific goals.
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Old 04-03-17, 05:32 PM   #37
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If find it both funny and sad that in discussions about fat/weight loss people always seem to end up arguing about false dichotomies. The most effective approach is not just diet, nor is it just steady state cardio, or HIIT or weight-training. The most effective approach is all of the above.
Amen to that!

A couple of years ago, I realised that I was overweight and researched intermittent fasting, following the 5:2 diet made popular by Michael Moseley (who now makes a lot of health-related TV documentaries, most of which are quite interesting and well researched). I lost a fair bit of weight (c. 9kg), but wasn't really getting any stronger.

I found that combination of different modes of exercise with some knowledge of nutrition, combined with changes to my diet yielded the best results.

Do I do this consistently? No, not really! But at least I have a set of goals that I aim towards.
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Old 04-03-17, 05:42 PM   #38
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A few other things to throw out is that it's possible to consume too few calories, and the calorie deficit can actually throw your body into starvation mode which will affect your ability to get leaner. Also, your body adjusts to routine, so as you get used to what you're doing, it takes less effort and energy to do it so you get less net effect. Changing up your routine will help. I would recommend talking to a certified nutritionist or trainer to help you achieve your specific goals.
Yes, I am aware of that, and it was one of my major concerns with Intermittent Fasting, which I no longer do (my wife tells me that it made me really grumpy too!). I am also wary of the possibility of starting to burn muscle for protein, but my understanding is that this is only likely to happen after a prolonged fast (>36 hours?), or if exercising past the point of glycogen depletion.

It's a fascinating area of study, and it's surprising that there is still so much dissent about how the body actually works! More science is needed, and less "woo".
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Old 04-03-17, 05:46 PM   #39
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HIIT is a terrible way to try to lose fat.

......and yet many people are doing HIIT and getting positive results from it, not only in their body composition but also in performance...I know HIIT is not for everybody, many people just don't like putting themselves through 4 minutes or 10 minutes of hell... HIIT is a great option for people who don't have time to do endless bouts of steady state cardio.


Interval Training: Scientists Explain Why It Works | Time.com
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Old 04-10-17, 07:30 AM   #40
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Mostly to become a stronger cyclist, and fitter / leaner in general. I'm not overly concerned with actual weight as long as the total amount of fat is lower, and muscle mass is increased.



Exactly. I want less fat & more muscle. Have a better power to weight ratio is good for cycling too, of course, so I'm not looking to "bulk up" - just add lean muscle.

Good advice on diet. I'm not on any fad diets - just trying to reduce overall calories to a suitable level for my activity and take care of what I eat.
I wouldn't worry about this at all. It's really difficult to add a lot of muscle to one's frame. It would kind of be the equivalent of a bodybuilder responding "I don't want to turn into a skinny Tour de France rider" if you suggested they do cardio a few times a week (note: bodybuilders actually do cardio, but it makes for a good example). Adding substantial amounts of muscle takes a caloric surplus plus a lot of time (years) and effort.
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Old 04-10-17, 07:39 AM   #41
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......and yet many people are doing HIIT and getting positive results from it, not only in their body composition but also in performance...I know HIIT is not for everybody, many people just don't like putting themselves through 4 minutes or 10 minutes of hell... HIIT is a great option for people who don't have time to do endless bouts of steady state cardio.


Interval Training: Scientists Explain Why It Works | Time.com
To further your point, I'm reminded about a guy named Eric Helms who is a well respected strength coach. He did a series on what he describes as the "Muscle and Strength Pyramid" posted here:

Of note (and what is relevant to this discussion) is that the base of the pyramid is "Adherence". Doing something that you enjoy/fits your lifestyle and schedule is probably 80% of it. This applies to both exercise choice and diet strategy. If you enjoy HIIT or that's all that really fits your schedule, then it's a great choice for fat loss.
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Old 04-20-17, 11:20 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Loose (adjective) = opposite of tight
Lose (verb) = opposite of gain
They are pronounced differently, too.

It's a common spelling error.
I think he speaks Canadian, eh?
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Old 04-21-17, 04:08 AM   #43
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Hey, johngwheeler, now you are in the dog house for non-disclosure of your bike purchase to your wife, you might find those pounds falling off pretty rapidly. Chewing on a bone for dinner is just the ticket and you won't even have to ride the bike!

For those not in the know, here is his other thread:

Busted! N+1 discovered by wife...how to placate?
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Old 04-21-17, 08:07 AM   #44
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True. I don't have a lot of upper body muscle at all! My legs are lot stronger after a couple months of cycling, but it doesn't do much for my arms. Perhaps I should carry my bike more than ride it :-)

John
Compared with weight lifting, long distance cycling doesn't build much leg mass either. It's likely a good thing for you to add (but make sure you train your legs too - that's were ~ 70% of your muscle mass is). This is good for not only losing fat but for general health.

Having said that, diet is probably 80% of weight loss. That's likely the best place for you to start... especially since you haven't made any modifications to that yet.
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Old 04-21-17, 09:00 AM   #45
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HIIT is a terrible way to try to lose fat.
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......and yet many people are doing HIIT and getting positive results from it, not only in their body composition but also in performance...
I said HIIT is a bad way to lose fat. When you respond and say it can make you sprint faster on the bike, you're not refuting me.

HIIT is good for training purposes. I do it in the form of hill repeats every Tuesday afternoon. Because it helps with fitness. Which is a different thing than losing weight.
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Old 04-21-17, 10:57 AM   #46
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I just learned a lot about obesity listening to this podcast. It's more difficult than I had thought.

Rachel Batterham - gut reactions to obesity
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