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Thread: Weakness...

  1. #1
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Weakness...

    Many of you know now that I have a condition that limits my power levels (for now) among other things for cycling. Other than with sprints and climbing where raw power is needed it is not a big deal. It has very little effect of my endurance, I can ride centuries, metrics, back to back long days, etc. Basically the lack of power is related to my body requiring more time to build muscle because it repairs slower after a hard workout. That means I need more recovery and am prone to overtraining if I train too hard to soon together.

    I have never done two long hard rides back to back due to this, i.e. two rides over 50+ miles back to back where they were both hard. I tried it before and ended up abandoning and going home on the second one. Today I tried it again and had very simular cirumstances. I rode a metric yesterday and a half century today, both were hard fast rides with very fast technical paceline work. On Sunday I was quite tired after the ride and my quads and hamstrings amoung others was sore. I went out Monday (today) to ride my own pace (singlespeed, spinning) but the group did not want to ride slow so I tried to go fast... here is what happened.

    I started feeling real weak abot mile 14 of hard riding and had to back down. I started feeling weak all over and was having trouble keeping any reasonable pace. I ended up off the back of the group and spinning the next 7 miles to the regroup alone. At one point I just had to sit down and wait for the slow group to come up and pick me up. The funny thing was that I felt like I had lots left in my legs, but like something just ran out. It was not a bonk because I had eaten plenty of food and was hydrated, I just could not get motivated to pedal.

    On the way back my body finally started shutting down about mile 45 or 50, i.e. pain started, muscles started getting weak, I got wobbily on the bike, etc. The last 5 miles were at something like 13 MPH.

    Now is this feeling "normal" for someone recovering? I am starting to doubt if what I feel is a condition of what I have or if it is normal part of riding. It is kind of like... smell the roses... what roses, I do not smell anything...

    Thanks as always...
    Just your average club rider... :)

  2. #2
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Doing 2 hard days back to back is no easy feat. In fact I'm willing to put good money on the notion that the guys that are good at doing back to back hard days (or stage races for that matter) are very seasoned cyclists with years of training. Seems to me that I read somewhere that George Hincapie was very good at this and some of his training was centered around doing 2 hard training days in a row. It also seems that I read the rest of his week was pretty mild intensity wise though. At least that's how I remember it. Could be that my memory is failing me though.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

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    Focus on the future alison_in_oh's Avatar
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    For the most part, this sounds pretty normal. I really pushed hard in Sunday's race, yesterday struggled to maintain speeds 3-4 mph below my usual training speeds on my usual training routes. My heartrate was not high, but my legs would not spin. Today I'm still recovering, and only my commute home will tell if I've got the legs to hang with the challenging, hilly group ride or if I'd be better off spinning easy tonight (doesn't help that I lifted weights at noon ).

    If you know you need more recovery due to medical issues, take more recovery. That seems pretty straightforward. But it isn't clear if you are sure that your issues are due to your medical condition, or if they are simply a matter of pushing harder than your still-developing ability will allow. Just because fit cyclists with years of experience are out there doing back-to-back training centuries doesn't mean you don't need an easy spinning day after a metric. TEMET NOSCE.

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    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    I talk longer to recover than most people do due to my body taking longer to rebuild muscles that are torn apart during a hard ride. My medical issues are more related to core strength than endurance though.

    I now know why I have such a hard time in crits... the constant accelerations wear down my muscles and I can not recover fast enough. Now since I have built up more core strength I can hang with the pack and if I can get a jump I can get off the front. I love hearing though about people who can go out and do very well in their first races. I just know it will take me a while to get there... I guess for now I am just a slow responder...
    Just your average club rider... :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    I talk longer to recover than most people do due to my body taking longer to rebuild muscles that are torn apart during a hard ride. My medical issues are more related to core strength than endurance though.

    I now know why I have such a hard time in crits... the constant accelerations wear down my muscles and I can not recover fast enough. Now since I have built up more core strength I can hang with the pack and if I can get a jump I can get off the front. I love hearing though about people who can go out and do very well in their first races. I just know it will take me a while to get there... I guess for now I am just a slow responder...
    Um, you've been riding less then a year right? Unless you have had a doctor tell you that you suffer from an ailment, your only 'medical issue' is that you are average. There is a reason so many folks talk about the one hard, one soft, one off, rinse repeat schedule.

    Its called 'cycling' for more then one reason, strength (on the bike) comes in cycles. NOBODY is strong all the time and I mean NOBODY. Those who do well recognize that when they are off accept it, enjoy the ride, knowing that by taking it easy you are building up for the next time you are 'on'.

    You are young and come across as thinking that because you have ambition that it will propell you past what others have had to earn, sorry to break it to ya, it just doesnt work that way for most of us. You get to put in your years just like the rest of us only to realize that to make gains is hard. Some people picked better parents and are genetic freaks enabling them to do things on a bike, in a race car, running a marathon, fill-in-the-blank, naturally and with seemingly little effort. We all have something we are exceptional at, unfortunatly its rarely where we might wish it to be.
    Its all downhill from somewhere.

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    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    I talk longer to recover than most people do due to my body taking longer to rebuild muscles that are torn apart during a hard ride.
    Just wait until you are 45. You're still a young school pup. You don't know the meaning of "taking longer to recover!"
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  7. #7
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
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    I've been back on the bike for only 3 years after a 35 year hiatus. It took me a full year to realize not only that at 50+ it took longer to recover, it also takes a heck of a lot longer to warm up. If I don't warm up carefully, there is no way I am going to have a good ride.
    Just Peddlin' Around

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamawe
    . We all have something we are exceptional at, unfortunatly its rarely where we might wish it to be.
    I'm exceptional at drinking beer

    58vw - if you've got a medical condition and it's private, that's cool. But it's kind of hard to tell what you're getting at from your posts. First it seems like you're talking about general systemic fatigue and recovery; then you're talking about tension induced muscle trauma; then about core strength. You're kind of all over the place, man. You're in college, right? You may want to pick up an exercise physiology class to help you straighten out these ideas conceptually.

    Now if you just wanna post and get people on these boards to give you a nice pat you on the back ...well, there you go.

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    Focus on the future alison_in_oh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    I now know why I have such a hard time in crits... the constant accelerations wear down my muscles and I can not recover fast enough. Now since I have built up more core strength I can hang with the pack and if I can get a jump I can get off the front. I love hearing though about people who can go out and do very well in their first races. I just know it will take me a while to get there... I guess for now I am just a slow responder...
    Again, are you sure this is your medical issue? Or are you expecting miracles, thinking that you are going to work through a frequently-accelerating fits and jumps criterium, putting stress on your muscles almost exactly as heavy lifting would, and then wanting to go out and train hard the next day?

    Without knowing the particulars of your medical issues, I'm really seeing you use them as an excuse time and again, ever since you brought the problem out of the closet to this board. I know it must sting a little to be struggling in your races, but I don't think it's medical issues, I don't think it's "everyone takes 10 crits to hang", I think it's you jumping in both feet first to a sport that favors the seasoned competitor. It's TOTALLY awesome that you are so enthusiastic, your enthusiasm was a great part of what got me to start racing! And you've come SO far, I can see it in every post! But you simply must have patience, MORE so if your condition requires a more tempered approach.

    Sure, I went out in my first races and hung with a group of not terribly fast women -- I'm more challenged by local group rides. But I did it not within a few months of getting on the bike, but after a YEAR of slowly developing muscular strength and endurance. And I did it after FIVE years of road riding, where I gained bike handling skills from my intermittent, heavily coached rides even if I didn't gain actual strength or speed.

  10. #10
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Yes it is a now a diagnosed medical condition, thanks to a forum member for giving it a name, kallmann's syndrome. I went to the doctor and after some number of tests (including blood, smell, MRI, cat scan, etc etc) yesterday and today it was confirmed.

    You can read up on it if you want but its effects are kind of hard for me to talk about on an open forum. Just say some of the stuff that makes me a guy does nor work properly. If you dig up the site on the info you will find out what it means.

    I can not say that this problem is totally my limiting factor... I need to do alot of hard work to get where I want to be and there is no excuse about it. For 12 years now I had no idea what was wrong with me, in high school I could only bench press 30 pounds, I was never able to reallt place competative sports, nor was strong enough to do things like push ups, etc. I definitly am diving feet first into the sport, but after years of sitting on the side lines I finally found something that I can be good in, part of my enthusiam for cycling.

    What is frusterating is that I can ride away from a cat 5 pack but yet I do not have the raw power to win a pack sprint, even with a lead out. After about 32 MPH I loose the wheel and get sucked up by the pack. I read about people in their first year of racing who can hit 37 MPH + in a pack sprint and I wonder why I can not do that.

    On a few weeks I am going to start taking the stuff that will help me start to rebuild all that muscle that I have never been able to build all these years. When that happens then I will have the core strength to be able to finally contest sprints, etc. My technique is there but I can only push the pedals so hard. Since day one I knew that my power was the limiting factor, I started posting about that long ago when I started racing. I have been working very hard to make the gains that I have. I am no where near the riding I started out as 8 months ago. There are just times when I feel weak, not in my legs feel weak but my whole body feels that way.

    Of course even if taking this medication in someway makes me able to build muscle better it will still be up to me to actually do it. I am dedicated to coming as far as I can in this sport and I will not let a "little
    problem stop me. I will just have to work harder is all. What was wierd though is that like on Monday I felt good leg wise the whole day but the rest of my body could not stand for it. I can not expect to gain what you guys have gained in years of riding in one year, but I would like every opportunity to feel normal.

    The last 2 weeks have changed my life. I do not know what is normal anymore, nothing seems right. Things I though for example tasted one way do not really taste that way, I have come to the realization that I will never smell things, and that I can do something about what is going on. If I can go from off the back in a cat 5 race to nearly winning that I can do evern better once I am as close to normal as possible.

    If you want more info on what I am dealig with go to www.kallmanns.org and check it out...
    Just your average club rider... :)

  11. #11
    Focus on the future alison_in_oh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    Yes it is a now a diagnosed medical condition, thanks to a forum member for giving it a name, kallmann's syndrome. I went to the doctor and after some number of tests (including blood, smell, MRI, cat scan, etc etc) yesterday and today it was confirmed.
    Always good to have a firm diagnosis. I'm glad that you can start treatment! Way to go on meeting this challenge head on! Let patience be your watchword though -- it doesn't sound like you are going to have any miracle cures. Take each day at a time, and judge your progress against yourself, not others.

    The last 2 weeks have changed my life. I do not know what is normal anymore, nothing seems right. Things I though for example tasted one way do not really taste that way, I have come to the realization that I will never smell things, and that I can do something about what is going on. If I can go from off the back in a cat 5 race to nearly winning that I can do evern better once I am as close to normal as possible.
    I see how this has turned everything upside-down for you. In fact, you should strongly consider counseling -- it might be really helpful for you to have someone to talk to about all of these crazy confusing events and emotions. I'm glad you can see the positive in the situation. But remember: no miracles, no stacking yourself up against others, just hard work and progress, OK!

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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    What is frusterating is that I can ride away from a cat 5 pack but yet I do not have the raw power to win a pack sprint, even with a lead out. After about 32 MPH I loose the wheel and get sucked up by the pack. I read about people in their first year of racing who can hit 37 MPH + in a pack sprint and I wonder why I can not do that.

    On a few weeks I am going to start taking the stuff that will help me start to rebuild all that muscle ...
    First things first. What you call 'riding away from a pack', is usually refered to as going off the front and getting caught. Riding away would imply they didnt pace you and swallow you up when they decided to. Actually rather silly thing to do considering you cant sprint. Should save your strength. Second, the mere fact they 'let' you off the front doesnt mean you did something wonderful, it means you went off and shot your wad and got schooled on the sprint. Thats ALL it means.

    There are people who can play the piano after a few lessons, others learn a second language with ease, some folks climb a mountain and keep up with the good guys after a few trips, etc, etc. As I said before, virtually ALL of us fall into the bubble on a bell curve for most things. We will be at the front or the back on a few, we just dont get to choose. So, in a nut shell, deal with it.

    As for your condition...well, I dont think this is the place to share that. As suggested there are support groups available for any and every syndrome they can think up. The internet is an easy and overused vehicle for soliciting attention.

    We all have something life has dealt us, how we cope and handle it is what makes us, not how we lean on it.
    Its all downhill from somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamawe
    First things first. What you call 'riding away from a pack', is usually refered to as going off the front and getting caught. Riding away would imply they didnt pace you and swallow you up when they decided to. Actually rather silly thing to do considering you cant sprint. Should save your strength. Second, the mere fact they 'let' you off the front doesnt mean you did something wonderful, it means you went off and shot your wad and got schooled on the sprint. Thats ALL it means.

    There are people who can play the piano after a few lessons, others learn a second language with ease, some folks climb a mountain and keep up with the good guys after a few trips, etc, etc. As I said before, virtually ALL of us fall into the bubble on a bell curve for most things. We will be at the front or the back on a few, we just dont get to choose. So, in a nut shell, deal with it.

    As for your condition...well, I dont think this is the place to share that. As suggested there are support groups available for any and every syndrome they can think up. The internet is an easy and overused vehicle for soliciting attention.

    We all have something life has dealt us, how we cope and handle it is what makes us, not how we lean on it.

    That's a little harsh, dude. 58's only got diagnosed this past week - he had no idea that his lack of power during races over the past year was caused by a serious medical condition. Secondly, the guy is young, barely in college think, and is racing CAT5 - I don't know much about racing, but I think we can forgive him for not being a brilliant tactician and trying to break away a little early.

    58's got a legitimate medical condition and is legitimately training for his chosen sport - what's inappropriate about sharing that here? Also, trying to race with kallmann's syndrome is a little beyond "just deal with it". You just deal with having a cold on race day - this is completely different. He's not on a level playing field right now - what he's experiencing would be like being the only clean racer in a field where everyone is doped.

    Speaking of which, at what point do they start drug testing in racing? Once 58vw gets on hormone replacement therapy he's gonna test positive for anabolics/androgenics. Do governing bodies make concessions to people with these types of conditions?

  14. #14
    slower than you Applehead57's Avatar
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    I think you're expecting WAY, WAY too much of yourself.
    You can not go to the gym and lift heavy weights two days in a row, so why would you think you could ride hard for consecutive days?
    You sound like a very strong cyclist, I don't personally know anyone who could ride hard like you described.
    Even the pro's have to rest. And they don't have to manage with all the daily tasks we do.
    Be very proud of what you've accomplished, you're way ahead of most of us.
    "Lack of opportunity does not constitute virtue". Diana Tickle.

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