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Old 08-10-17, 08:29 AM   #26
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This articles point on protein is based on the premise and study of those that live a sedentary life. The OP want to do endurance rides and that is not a sedentary life. Additionally the article says that upping the protein level through certain diets might lead to ketosis. Ketosis being a depleted glycogen state an the body depending largely on fat stores for muscle energy.

Not a great thing for someone wanting to perform on their bicycle. Okay for anyone wanting to stay in the low zones, but not good for anyone that wants to finish in the top 50 percent of the pack. Definitely won't win any sprints when among the carbohydrate burner.
All very true. And endurance athletes have a greater need for both protein and carbohydrates because endurance work depletes both. We burn protein during endurance exercise, not just carbs and fat. For a complete overview (ignore the product pushing) of protein use during and after exercise, see: How Much Protein? | Hammer Nutrition
I think this link agrees with the experience of athletes on BF. At 72, I squat more than I did at 21, am only 8 lbs over my senior HS weight, 23 BMI, and have no problem riding double centuries. It works.

You are reiterating the need for a balanced diet, very good. Protein is a component of that balanced diet. As I said in the beginning, when your legs hurt on the bike, you need more protein. Otherwise, not. It's a tell that's more useful than spending hours trying to see if you are getting 1.5g/kg/day with the correct amino acid profile. That's nice if you're a researcher, useless if you're an athlete trying to train. There's no harm in going over the absolute minimum protein requirement as long as one is also getting enough carbs and fat to perform.

What's weird is this business of trying to limit protein to the absolute calculated minimum, but ignoring such calculations for carbs and fat. What's with that?
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Old 09-06-17, 11:32 AM   #27
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Protein is critical for me for training. I take bcaa's (branch chain amino acids, basically what protein breaks down into, ON brand pills) before I ride. A 20g protein bar mid ride, and more bcaa's after I ride. I find it helps me train longer and I recover a lot faster. Your body needs protein to repair muscle. The question is are you getting enough in your regular diet to repair your body. Best thing I can tell you is grab a bar or a shake and try it. Shakes/bars can be take before, during, or after a work out. My understanding is if you take it after, the first 15min are the most important, anytime before or during is fine. For me, mid ride is the best. If you try it and it helps, you probably needed it, if you don't see any difference, then you are good with your current diet. Most gas stations have protein bars and shakes, pick one up and try it out.
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Old 09-06-17, 11:54 AM   #28
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Protein is critical for me for training. I take bcaa's (branch chain amino acids, basically what protein breaks down into, ON brand pills) before I ride. A 20g protein bar mid ride, and more bcaa's after I ride. I find it helps me train longer and I recover a lot faster. Your body needs protein to repair muscle. The question is are you getting enough in your regular diet to repair your body. Best thing I can tell you is grab a bar or a shake and try it. Shakes/bars can be take before, during, or after a work out. My understanding is if you take it after, the first 15min are the most important, anytime before or during is fine. For me, mid ride is the best. If you try it and it helps, you probably needed it, if you don't see any difference, then you are good with your current diet. Most gas stations have protein bars and shakes, pick one up and try it out.
Our bodies don't repair muscle while we are pushing limits with our muscles. Protein is only needed post ride. Before and during the ride, carbohydrates and water are really the only thing you need.

If a little protein or fat helps your stomach feel better, that's okay. But that's just individuals and what they are used too.

I'm trying to keep it simple, so I have not gone into the if's, and's or but's.
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Old 09-06-17, 04:41 PM   #29
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Our bodies don't repair muscle while we are pushing limits with our muscles. Protein is only needed post ride. Before and during the ride, carbohydrates and water are really the only thing you need.

If a little protein or fat helps your stomach feel better, that's okay. But that's just individuals and what they are used too.

I'm trying to keep it simple, so I have not gone into the if's, and's or but's.
right, but if the optimum time your body needs those nutrients is that 15min window after you ride, and you take them right after, that 15min is not sufficient to digest it. i eat mid ride so that it is already partially digested and ready for uptake. i have tried it pre, during, and post, and either pre or during has worked best for me, post had little to no effect.
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Old 09-06-17, 05:16 PM   #30
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Plenty of BCAAs in milk.
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Old 09-06-17, 05:59 PM   #31
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Plenty of BCAAs in milk.
yeah, me and milk don't get along so well, got an allergy. I can take a supplement, but I try to keep my milk intake to a minimum
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Old 09-06-17, 06:35 PM   #32
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Gotcha. In your case, I bet it helps. I mean, BCAAs are very beneficial to anyone who exercises regularly, most people get enough, but if you have to avoid milk, you still need the nutrients.

Can you drink goat milk? Some people who don't get along with cow milk can tolerate goat milk just fine. (I like goat cheese but not milk.)
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Old 09-06-17, 06:49 PM   #33
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This being a thread about protein, I thought I'd throw this out there.

Plain non-fat yogurt (like Siggi's) is very low calorie and very high protein. You can flavor it with little bits of chocolate. A Theo bar splinters and powders really nicely when you cut it. Half a bar for three servings of yogurt gets you what would be a full day's protein requirement for most people, for about 650 calories. It's about 5:1 kCal protein-to-carb, not too far from the ideal recovery snack.

Although you can't absorb protein very quickly, you'll absorb almost all of it that you eat. It just takes a while. And keeps you feeling full.
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Old 09-07-17, 01:14 PM   #34
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right, but if the optimum time your body needs those nutrients is that 15min window after you ride, and you take them right after, that 15min is not sufficient to digest it. i eat mid ride so that it is already partially digested and ready for uptake. i have tried it pre, during, and post, and either pre or during has worked best for me, post had little to no effect.
That whole "optimum window" thing is very overrated IMO. If it works for you, great. But I don't think you're missing out if you wait until you get home to eat (or even later for that matter).
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Old 09-07-17, 02:12 PM   #35
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right, but if the optimum time your body needs those nutrients is that 15min window after you ride, and you take them right after, that 15min is not sufficient to digest it. i eat mid ride so that it is already partially digested and ready for uptake. i have tried it pre, during, and post, and either pre or during has worked best for me, post had little to no effect.
The window is more like four hours, maybe much more. While it might be true the body will absorb protein faster during the fifteen minutes after the ride, you are not going to absorb enough protein during that time to make any real difference to the amount of protein your body need to take in compared to those that clean their equipment and shower first. You don't instantly absorb what you eat.

Also, you said you've tried protein pre and during ride, might be the stuff you were eating also has carbs. Then again, you might be the outlier in all the articles I trust on the subject. Here is one that makes the reading easy for lay people..... http://www.cptips.com/protein.htm

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Old 09-07-17, 08:42 PM   #36
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The window is more like four hours, maybe much more. While it might be true the body will absorb protein faster during the fifteen minutes after the ride, you are not going to absorb enough protein during that time to make any real difference to the amount of protein your body need to take in compared to those that clean their equipment and shower first. You don't instantly absorb what you eat.

Also, you said you've tried protein pre and during ride, might be the stuff you were eating also has carbs. Then again, you might be the outlier in all the articles I trust on the subject. Here is one that makes the reading easy for lay people..... CYCLING PERFORMANCE TIPS -

great info, i have read some similar stuff before as well. base on my current weight of 290.bs and taking in 1g of protein per kg that puts me at a need of 131g of protein per day. I know I don't get anywhere near that much. I probably don't even come close to the 80g mark of a average weight rider. That's why I always take a bar with me when I ride and hit the BCAA's before and after.
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Old 09-13-17, 03:30 PM   #37
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great info, i have read some similar stuff before as well. base on my current weight of 290.bs and taking in 1g of protein per kg that puts me at a need of 131g of protein per day. I know I don't get anywhere near that much. I probably don't even come close to the 80g mark of a average weight rider. That's why I always take a bar with me when I ride and hit the BCAA's before and after.
131 grams is only 4.6 ounces. You telling me you don't eat any plants or animals? If you do, then believe me you are getting plenty of protein even without supplementing.

The number in the study is for total daily intake. Not supplementation during a ride.

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Old 09-13-17, 03:47 PM   #38
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131 grams is only 4.6 ounces. You telling me you don't eat any plants or animals? If you do, then believe me you are getting plenty of protein even without supplementing.

The number in the study is for total daily intake. Not supplementation during a ride.
yes 131grams is 4.6oz, but we are talking protein, not food weight. You cant buy protein by the oz. A protein bar has 20g. 3 eggs is 18g of protein, 1/2lb burger is 32.5g of protein, 1 cup chopped chicken breast 40g. Getting enough is not as easy as it seems unless your eating a LOT of meat and eggs.
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Old 09-13-17, 05:11 PM   #39
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yes 131grams is 4.6oz, but we are talking protein, not food weight. You cant buy protein by the oz. A protein bar has 20g. 3 eggs is 18g of protein, 1/2lb burger is 32.5g of protein, 1 cup chopped chicken breast 40g. Getting enough is not as easy as it seems unless your eating a LOT of meat and eggs.
But you are giving an example diet that is more typical of a 120 pound person. I'm only 168 currently and I eat more than the quantities you mention above. And I'm sure the average cyclist here eats much more meat per day than the 4.9 ounces meat in your example.

edit.... forgot to add the 1/2 pound of ground beef. So still, I think most people eat more than 12.9 ounces of meat per day. And milk is 8 grams protein per cup. So lets not forget that. I don't drink it daily but I go through a half gallon of milk a week. My wife don't drink whole milk, so I have it all to myself.

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Old 09-13-17, 08:25 PM   #40
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But you are giving an example diet that is more typical of a 120 pound person. I'm only 168 currently and I eat more than the quantities you mention above. And I'm sure the average cyclist here eats much more meat per day than the 4.9 ounces meat in your example.

edit.... forgot to add the 1/2 pound of ground beef. So still, I think most people eat more than 12.9 ounces of meat per day. And milk is 8 grams protein per cup. So lets not forget that. I don't drink it daily but I go through a half gallon of milk a week. My wife don't drink whole milk, so I have it all to myself.
I would not be so quick with assumptions about athlete diets. I, and many very fast riders whom I know eat little or no meat. There are many good vegan (or mostly vegan) riders. I don't drink milk either, though I use many milk products. We don't need to get into an argument about whether or not a meatless or nearly meatless diet is a good idea. I'm just pointing out a well-known fact about eating choices.

Another point which escapes many people is that plant-based proteins are quite sufficient if caloric intake is high enough. One begins to run into trouble with protein when calories are restricted, whether one eats meat or not. Ground beef for instance is frequently 25% fat, meaning that about 1/2 the calories are from fat.
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Old 09-13-17, 10:22 PM   #41
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Ive been in the weight lifting community for a while now, as well as did my undergrad in public health with a focus on nutrition and went to graduate school for PT shortly after. A lot of what is put forth about protein is indeed a myth put forth by supplement companies to sell more protein. Long bicycle rides mostly utilize slow twitch fibers that rely more on oxidative capacity for energy as compared to faster twitch fibers that are more glyocolytic. The implication here is that in terms of adaptation following exercise, the slower twitched fibers are not going to undergo the same physiologic changes as the faster twitch. Fast twitch fibers are going to become hypertrophic in size which does require quite a bit of protein for growth.

Slower fibers are going to rely on more aerobic adaption, meaning increasing mitochondria count, size, increasing enzyme availability, microcapillary budding in the arteriole beds, etc. which is not AS demanding on dietary protein for adaptation. Its a more complex way of saying if you train for size, you are going to want to ingest a lot more protein.

With that said, cycling can indeed be highly stressful to the body and muscles, and likely does require more protein than a "normal" person for optimal improvement. Can a balanced diet provide you with everything needed in order to healthily repair tissues? Of course. But a protein supplement certainly wont hurt, and may give you a little bit more when the body is repairing itself.

If you are shopping for protein, consider the type. Whey protein, which is commonly sold, is an extremely fast digesting protein, while casein is a much slower digesting protein. Egg albumin is more in the middle. A lot of protein companies will provide "blends", while others sell each specifically. If you dont want to drop a lot of money, get a good blend.

If you want something more specific, Id recommend a good casein PRIOR to long rides and then sipping whey in the hours following the ride.

tl:dr--protein isnt needed but can certainly aid in supplementing the diet for protein and repairing damaged muscle tissues. Do some research on brands prrior to buying, as a lot are scams. ****** and consumer reports both did tests which are easily searchable on google for protein per scoop vs claimed protein per scoop. Brands like ON, Dynmatize, and Isopure are good.

After skimming this thread a lot of what Carbonfiber guy is saying I am in agreement with. The main issue I see is people wasting money on low quality protein from brands that skimp out and add fillers, because you are being ripped off. There really are no downsides to high quality protein unless you cannot afford it--its the cheapest form of protein youll likely find.

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Old 09-13-17, 11:11 PM   #42
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Mmm, sorry, wrong.

Maybe some Ochem is in order for you?

Also, the article you provided just proves exactly my point. Y u no try read?
Proteins are polymers of amino acids, and are digested into individual amino acids.
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Old 09-13-17, 11:38 PM   #43
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Proteins are polymers of amino acids, and are digested into individual amino acids.
Proteins contain polymers of amino acids, and yes, they are digested into individual amino acids (among other things).

So what's your point? And why are you reviving this? My statement was still correct and the other person's was incorrect.

All amino acids are not proteins, and proteins are not just amino acids. Regardless, the digestion and metabolism of protein is not completely understood by any stretch of the imagination, nor is protein generation, nor just about any function of the body.

Just because a car is mostly made up of metal does not make all metals cars. Surely you have heard this concept before, I think there used to be a few on the SATs?
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Old 09-13-17, 11:53 PM   #44
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Proteins contain polymers of amino acids, and yes, they are digested into individual amino acids (among other things).

So what's your point? And why are you reviving this? My statement was still correct and the other person's was incorrect.

All amino acids are not proteins, and proteins are not just amino acids. Regardless, the digestion and metabolism of protein is not completely understood by any stretch of the imagination, nor is protein generation, nor just about any function of the body.

Just because a car is mostly made up of metal does not make all metals cars. Surely you have heard this concept before, I think there used to be a few on the SATs?
I'm gearing up to teach biochemistry in a couple of weeks. I've only done this about 20 times before, so perhaps you might be willing to help me out?
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Old 09-14-17, 12:00 AM   #45
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I'm gearing up to teach biochemistry in a couple of weeks. I've only done this about 20 times before, so perhaps you might be willing to help me out?
So then you knew full well the person I told was wrong was wrong, but you had to chime in to try and show your knowledge by being a pita contrarian and contributing nothing?

Hmmm, great job, sure youll be one hell of a teacher.
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Old 09-14-17, 12:04 AM   #46
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I just don't enjoy pomposity very much. Sorry. Especially when there is so little for you to be pompous about.
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Old 09-14-17, 08:38 AM   #47
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I would not be so quick with assumptions about athlete diets. I, and many very fast riders whom I know eat little or no meat. There are many good vegan (or mostly vegan) riders. I don't drink milk either, though I use many milk products. We don't need to get into an argument about whether or not a meatless or nearly meatless diet is a good idea. I'm just pointing out a well-known fact about eating choices.

Another point which escapes many people is that plant-based proteins are quite sufficient if caloric intake is high enough. One begins to run into trouble with protein when calories are restricted, whether one eats meat or not. Ground beef for instance is frequently 25% fat, meaning that about 1/2 the calories are from fat.
Just so you know....... At the same time I started back into serious cycling, I eliminated all meat from my diet. As well I didn't do any dairy, breads and grains. I added fish back in after about six months as well breads and dairy were added back. But I stayed off other meat for well over two years. After six years, it is only this year that my meat consumption has gone up significantly. Still I think I eat way less meat than most other people.

During the time I was completely vegetarian, my cycling performance did increase as well a my health. I should credit my diet change just as much as my cycling to getting me fit and my blood pressure and lipid numbers back to numbers that are so low, my doctors don't believe me when I tell them I feel bad. Nor do I have to take any medication. Which was the biggest goal for me getting fit. I don't like taking pills.

So I'm right there with you on the knowledge that intense cycling performance is just as easy, maybe easier for a vegetarian of any flavor as it is a meat eater. I don't think I can disagree with any of your statements quoted here except for the very first. Was I judging?
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Old 09-14-17, 08:48 AM   #48
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I just don't enjoy pomposity very much. Sorry. Especially when there is so little for you to be pompous about.
Not to be rude, but your little one line quips are just about all I ever see you post. They are being taken as "Pompous" by me and apparently others. So if you want to lend to the discussion, then please write an essay.

One liners are good when you want to inject humor. But bad if you are trying to make a point. Many readers won't be sure what your meaning or intention is.
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Old 09-14-17, 11:01 AM   #49
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@Iride01

What the guy originally wrote was this:

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BTW, amino acids are protein.
He was snippily and dismissively told that he was completely wrong and to go take an organic chemistry course:

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Mmm, sorry, wrong.

Maybe some Ochem is in order for you?

Also, the article you provided just proves exactly my point. Y u no try read?

I simply pointed out that he actually wasn't that far off, i.e., that proteins are (one or more) polymers of amino acids.

His point, from what I can gather, is that if you are consuming proteins, there is no need for individual amino acid supplements, since you are already getting all 20 of them. So he was essentially correct, even if it could have been worded a bit more precisely.

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Old 09-14-17, 12:00 PM   #50
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great info, i have read some similar stuff before as well. base on my current weight of 290.bs and taking in 1g of protein per kg that puts me at a need of 131g of protein per day. I know I don't get anywhere near that much. I probably don't even come close to the 80g mark of a average weight rider. That's why I always take a bar with me when I ride and hit the BCAA's before and after.
It's pretty hard to not get enough protein in America. You probably don't need to worry.

You should use My Fitness Pal. Just for a week, even a few days if that's too much. Enter everything you eat. It's free, it has a barcode scanner (your phone camera), you just tell it what you're eating and how much. Its database has nutritional info. At the end of the day it will tell you how much protein you got. Then you won't have to guess or assume.

I get 200+ g every day, and I'm a vegetarian.
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