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  1. #1
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Hill intervals... advice please

    Alright, as part on my on bike power building process I am going to start serious hill climbing interval work this week. I have a 6 - 8 percent climb about 1.5 miles or so, which takes about 10 minutes to climb at about 12 MPH at threshold. On this length of climb how many times should I do repeats on this type of interval? I am used to LT intervals in which I do 10 minute intervals, 3 - 4 sets at right above LT...

    Thanks as usual.
    Just your average club rider... :)

  2. #2
    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    Alright, as part on my on bike power building process I am going to start serious hill climbing interval work this week. I have a 6 - 8 percent climb about 1.5 miles or so, which takes about 10 minutes to climb at about 12 MPH at threshold. On this length of climb how many times should I do repeats on this type of interval? I am used to LT intervals in which I do 10 minute intervals, 3 - 4 sets at right above LT...

    Thanks as usual.
    Do it until your power starts dropping off dramatically. Usually your first rep is slow, second a bit faster, third your fastest rep, and then after that you start to drop off. On a climb like that, I'd think 4 would be good.

    You posted this just before I was about to go do intervals great timing bro!

    Edit: By the way, no resting at the bottom!
    Is trick from science!

  3. #3
    Lurker for Life yonderboy's Avatar
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    I would do it two different ways:

    1. Ride in 1 minute intervals with 1 minute rests between, do this twice
    2. Ride a set length (250m or so) up the hill, turn around and ride down, repeat for 10

    I do mine after a medium length ride at 60-75% output, then take a long cool down spin.

  4. #4
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinDeD
    Do it until your power starts dropping off dramatically. Usually your first rep is slow, second a bit faster, third your fastest rep, and then after that you start to drop off. On a climb like that, I'd think 4 would be good.

    You posted this just before I was about to go do intervals great timing bro!

    Edit: By the way, no resting at the bottom!
    I am going out after cyclism sundays!
    Just your average club rider... :)

  5. #5
    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    Today I did that hill I was talking about that's very similar to the TT one you had trouble on.

    .285miles to the top, something around 200ft of vertical rise (that's a guesstimate) I did it 10 times
    1- 2:09
    2- 2:13
    3- 2:29
    4- 2:41
    5- 2:48
    6- 3:03
    7- 2:59
    8- 3:02
    9- 3:10
    10- 3:14

    Basically, on shorter climbs do more reps, on longer climbs do less. I call what happens when it levels off my sustainable climbing rate (from reps 6 to 9, roughly), or around 3 minutes per rep, which tells me I can climb at around 4000ft per hour without crapping out.

    How'd your intervals go today?

    Edit: I forgot to say this earlier, do the reps sitting down the entire time.
    Is trick from science!

  6. #6
    CAT 2 wanna be PolishPostal's Avatar
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    PenguinDeD:
    Tell me exactly where this climb is and I can tell you what the elevation gain is from Delorme Topo.

  7. #7
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinDeD
    Today I did that hill I was talking about that's very similar to the TT one you had trouble on.

    .285miles to the top, something around 200ft of vertical rise (that's a guesstimate) I did it 10 times
    1- 2:09
    2- 2:13
    3- 2:29
    4- 2:41
    5- 2:48
    6- 3:03
    7- 2:59
    8- 3:02
    9- 3:10
    10- 3:14

    Basically, on shorter climbs do more reps, on longer climbs do less. I call what happens when it levels off my sustainable climbing rate (from reps 6 to 9, roughly), or around 3 minutes per rep, which tells me I can climb at around 4000ft per hour without crapping out.

    How'd your intervals go today?

    Edit: I forgot to say this earlier, do the reps sitting down the entire time.
    I did 4 1 mile climbs up Sierra Ave... attached is the elevation profile. You were right, the first 3 were great, the last one was misrible. I stop hill intervals when I can not turn 50 RPMs in the gear I want to climb in (Sierra gets a 53-21 for the top 2/3rds of the hill). It is not nearly as steep as the TT one but it 4 times longer and 3 times the climbing (420 verticle feet in one mile facing the wind

    Times -
    1. 7:17
    2. 7:12
    3. 7:30
    4. 8:28 - Time to pack the bags and go home!

    Ave speed for intervals 1 - 3 7.2 MPH

    Ave downhill speed - 48 MPH

    That is about 3800 feet per hour, very slow and agonizing climbing, very painful at the top pushing a very low cadence on a near 10 percent grade...

    Attached is the elevation profile...

    All this shows me is how much farther I need to come on my raw hill climbing power... I should be in 10 MPH range on the climb... but I have a long way to go... but...

    6 Months ago I could not climb this hill... today I climbed it 4 times in less than 40 minutes total interval time including rest time... I am very happy, you should have seen my smile on my face after the first interval... priceless! My goal is to make the climb in under 7 minutes for now and get my average speed to just over 8 MPH... I have done steep long hills but nothing like this...
    Just your average club rider... :)

  8. #8
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    Aim for candence of 60 rpm. You DO want to be effective when you're climbing hills, right?

    I take it you've dropped the coach? Good.

    Koffee

  9. #9
    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    Awesome VW! I know that feeling, at the beginning of this season I couldn't even do the hill once. Same with my climb down in New Paltz. Congrats on beating the snot out of it.
    Is trick from science!

  10. #10
    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolishPostal
    PenguinDeD:
    Tell me exactly where this climb is and I can tell you what the elevation gain is from Delorme Topo.
    Case Rd in Windham, NY. The bottom of it has two 90* turns, with the hill starting at the first one, and it ends where the rd starts bending at the top. Thanks for the help, by the way.



    edit: doing some geometry, I figured it's 161.5ft high. Lets hope that's wrong according to your maps, or my climbing rate on a 12.1% grade is only 3220ft/hr

    That's odd though, considering I do a 2.2mi, 1000ft, 9% climb in 15:00 avg. Either the grade of the hill isn't as constant as I thought it was, or my climbing is teh suck
    Last edited by TheKillerPenguin; 06-05-05 at 09:48 PM.
    Is trick from science!

  11. #11
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinDeD
    Awesome VW! I know that feeling, at the beginning of this season I couldn't even do the hill once. Same with my climb down in New Paltz. Congrats on beating the snot out of it.
    Congrats on your part too... it sounds like you are doing awsome there...

    koffee... 60 RPMs would be great... I think I need to drop one more gear (39-23) to get around 60 RPMs...

    My first group ride (on my MTB) was up this hill... (the one I did 42 miles on). I climbed (well tried) the hiill in a 30-34 and had to stop twice in the middle , that was 9 months ago!
    Just your average club rider... :)

  12. #12
    CAT 2 wanna be PolishPostal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinDeD
    Case Rd in Windham, NY. The bottom of it has two 90* turns, with the hill starting at the first one, and it ends where the rd starts bending at the top.

    I came up with an elevation gain of 152ft in 1387ft. That is a 11.0% average grade.

  13. #13
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    What is your emphasis in the intervals?
    Recovery or work effort?
    Velocity

  14. #14
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    The emphasis on intervals is the time from work to recovery. I don't think the question could be answered unless you know what kinds of intervals you're doing, how long, and what your heart rate is for the efforts.

    Koffee

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    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolishPostal
    I came up with an elevation gain of 152ft in 1387ft. That is a 11.0% average grade.
    Thanks, I did some geometry and got something similar to that

    What program do you use?
    Is trick from science!

  16. #16
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    The emphasis on intervals is the time from work to recovery. I don't think the question could be answered unless you know what kinds of intervals you're doing, how long, and what your heart rate is for the efforts.

    Koffee
    Good call Koffee.
    I like zone training based on RPE instead of HRM but that is a nother thread. To me intervals defined are "the time between repeating cycles of varing intensitites". Recovery is the thing that I am looking for when I try and understand what sort of training that is being done -I look for whether its intensive or extensive in nature- wheather you give your self total recovery (intensive) OR if you don't wait after the desent and just start climbing again OR you stop 3/4 way down the hill and turn around to hit it even sooner and so on and so on. What really hits hard is when you still feel uncomfortable in your breathing and then turn around and hit it again(extensive=not giving your self total recovery). But you don't have to go breathless to do an interval -did you know intervals can also be aerobically done and be very benifical even in a warm up?

    Velocity

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocity
    Good call Koffee.
    -did you know intervals can also be aerobically done and be very benifical even in a warm up?

    Velocity
    Short answer... yes.

    Koffee

  18. #18
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    Short answer... yes.

    Koffee
    I know you knew that Koffee-- geeeezzz LOL
    Oh by the way triple Irish crème cappuccino is my idea of a interval in a cup
    Velocity

  19. #19
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    I do not believe in the whole... no rest interval deals, going down the hill may take 30 - 45 seconds but most books say take at least 3 minutes recovery before attempting th next interval.

    What is weird is I went to and talked to the guy at the bike shop (former cat 1) and he was saying... oh Sierra is just a little blip in the road... then I ask him how fast he climbs it... oh about 15 - 16 MPH...

    I sure have a long way to go
    Just your average club rider... :)

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    I do not believe in the whole... no rest interval deals, going down the hill may take 30 - 45 seconds but most books say take at least 3 minutes recovery before attempting th next interval.

    What is weird is I went to and talked to the guy at the bike shop (former cat 1) and he was saying... oh Sierra is just a little blip in the road... then I ask him how fast he climbs it... oh about 15 - 16 MPH...

    I sure have a long way to go
    Most books with knowledgeable authors state that anaerobic:aerobic (work:recovery) should be 1:2. I'm not talking about fartlek, mind you... just structured interval work.

    Koffee

  21. #21
    bzzzz fuzzthebee's Avatar
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    If you are confident that you climb the hill at 12 mph at threshold, then you could figure out your power at LT (maybe you know it already) by plugging the numbers into an online calculator (assuming you don't have a power meter). Then do 3 to 5 intervals of 4-5 minutes with equal recovery at a power level 110% to 120% of your LT power level, or the speed which corresponds to that wattage. You can reduce the recovery time and increase the number of intervals as fitness progresses. It's important to progressively increase the wattage or speed as your fitness improves (obviously).

  22. #22
    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    Cool stuff. I usually do intervals with a small rest at the top to write down some numbers and then at the bottom turn around immediately and go back up. And I try to do them until "almost failure", so my legs feel it, but are still usable.

    Not very scientific I know, but it seems to work
    Is trick from science!

  23. #23
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    I would probably mix in different routines. The first one I would go up with faster cadence. Second one with lower cadence in the 60. Thrid one standing up all the way. Last one go up as fast as you could with mix of standing, various cadence, and etc.

  24. #24
    Focus on the future alison_in_oh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    Most books with knowledgeable authors state that anaerobic:aerobic (work:recovery) should be 1:2. I'm not talking about fartlek, mind you... just structured interval work.
    For fartlek, would you recover until you feel, well, recovered? Or would you just ramp it up again if you feel at all able?

    That is, next chance I get I'm going to hit a street near here with about a dozen rollers at varying distances. I'm going to hit each one in the biggest gear I can still turn over reasonably and practice powering over the tops and keeping my speed as in a race situation. If I hit a hill unrecovered from the previous one, will I be more likely to be causing damage or will my body just treat it like a longer interval?

  25. #25
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    Extensive intervals, are hard no doubt but look at it like this... After you pass a guy in a race do you get 3 minutes to recover before you attempt to pass the next guy? Plus we all do not recover the same and the ability to push on is your ability to go again.The intensity is very high and I wouldn't let a newbie train in these zones right off the bat .It is one where a person has built the aerobic base gone through a lot of high endurance ,Intensive Interval, power training at LT and knows basically what it takes to be at the edge of breathless while performing high effort work. This type of work will be what it takes for you to become more fit by overloading an all ready fit condition.
    Velocity

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