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  1. #1
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    Did I Overtrain?

    I think I already know the answer to this question, but I am just surprised. I have been riding the past couple months around 200mi/wk, typically three days a week. Generally two days are a 40 mile commute in the morning and a 50 mile ride back home. Last week I rode to work three times and on Friday did 70 miles on the way home for a total of around 300 miles for the week. I took the weekend off and on Monday rode to work again. I apparently was not recovered, because the rides were slower than normal and my heart rate seemed very low. If I push hard on a time trial my average is usually in the 150-160 range and a typical training ride is in the 140-150 range, but the rides on Monday were in the low 130s. Also, my legs seemed weak and my heart rate was under 120 a couple of times, even though I was trying to expend some effort and push up the speed. I think I eat pretty well. Anyway, the symptoms sure seem like overtraining to me, but I am a bit surprised that my body has not been able to recover. Anybody have any other ideas or suggestions? Thanks in advance.

    Dave

  2. #2
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    Take another couple of days off.

    If you're riding in heat, keep yourself cooled... keep cool water in your water bottles and just remember to keep yourself well hydrated, even when you're not riding.

    If you can get a massage and work that lactate out of your legs and facilitate recovery, do so.

    Koffee

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    Thanks, Koffee. Took your advice (days off, that is) and this morning on the way to work I was back to my old self - probably road too hard and I'll pay on the way home!!

    Dave

  4. #4
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    If you can get a massage and work that lactate out of your legs and facilitate recovery, do so.
    Lactate clears out of the body on it's own within a few hours. There is no evidence that massage increases one's recovery.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  5. #5
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNadler
    I think I already know the answer to this question, but I am just surprised. I have been riding the past couple months around 200mi/wk, typically three days a week. Generally two days are a 40 mile commute in the morning and a 50 mile ride back home. Last week I rode to work three times and on Friday did 70 miles on the way home for a total of around 300 miles for the week. I took the weekend off and on Monday rode to work again. I apparently was not recovered, because the rides were slower than normal and my heart rate seemed very low. If I push hard on a time trial my average is usually in the 150-160 range and a typical training ride is in the 140-150 range, but the rides on Monday were in the low 130s. Also, my legs seemed weak and my heart rate was under 120 a couple of times, even though I was trying to expend some effort and push up the speed. I think I eat pretty well. Anyway, the symptoms sure seem like overtraining to me, but I am a bit surprised that my body has not been able to recover. Anybody have any other ideas or suggestions? Thanks in advance.

    Dave
    It sounds more like you've over-reached. Overtraining is a serious condition and can take weeks to months to recover! If you can jump back on the bike and are eager to go after a week of downtime it ain't overtraining.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  6. #6
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    Overtraining can have you down for the count for a day, a week, a month, or a year. It depends on how high your fitness level is, how much you overtrained, and how fast you can bounce back from the microtears caused in your muscles from overtraining.

    There is no such thing as "over-reaching". It's the same thing as overtraining.

    Koffee

  7. #7
    Senior Member JavaMan's Avatar
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    Increasing your mileage from 200 to 300 in one week puts a lot of stress on your body. Additional stress from family or work, etc. can really take a toll. It doesn't mean you are a wimp if it sometimes takes several days or even a week to recover. Your body is what it is. Just keep listening to it.
    JavaMan!
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  8. #8
    Kelly Drive Amateur Boogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius
    Lactate clears out of the body on it's own within a few hours. There is no evidence that massage increases one's recovery.
    I find massage to be of great benefit. I've also heard quite a few times from weightlifters that it helps because it increases circulation.

  9. #9
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogs
    I find massage to be of great benefit. I've also heard quite a few times from weightlifters that it helps because it increases circulation.
    The benefits of massage are questionable at best.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=2286487

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11156281

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15574106

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15039254

    Active recovery is superior to massage. But if you want to waste your time and money go ahead.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  10. #10
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    Overtraining can have you down for the count for a day, a week, a month, or a year. It depends on how high your fitness level is, how much you overtrained, and how fast you can bounce back from the microtears caused in your muscles from overtraining.

    There is no such thing as "over-reaching". It's the same thing as overtraining.

    Koffee
    No it isn't.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  11. #11
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    Well, alright. If it isn't, show me where in the fitness literature where they define "over-reaching" and "overtraining".

    Koffee

  12. #12
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    P.S. And valid, intelligent literature, not some proctologist turned personal trainer who promotes steroid use to enhance muscle cell rigidity or some crazy stuff like that.

    Koffee

  13. #13
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    P.S. And valid, intelligent literature, not some proctologist turned personal trainer who promotes steroid use to enhance muscle cell rigidity or some crazy stuff like that.

    Koffee
    LMAOROF
    Nice protologist jab to the gut ouch!

  14. #14
    cab horn
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    There is no such thing as "over-reaching". It's the same thing as overtraining.
    No it's not. Over-reaching and over training are two different terms. One is to describe short term fatigue with a more than unusual effort or distance and the other is chronic fatigue which takes a lot longer to recover.

    I'd also like to see some evidence where someone says that overreaching and overtraining is the same thing. And it has to be valid, intelligent literature, not some proctologist turned personal trainer who promotes steroid use to enhance muscle cell rigidity or some crazy stuff like that.

  15. #15
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    Seems that these terms are thrown around at liberty because some feel tired and just need to rest. At what point does it desensitize you to someone telling you "I think I have a problem!" and I am not sure but I think "I am" (not have) over trained because I can not get to sleep at night, I have literally no energy and can't eat -loosing lots of weight, I have colds that last for weeks I get head/body aches with dizzy spells that make me feel like I am gonna lose my guts all over the place. And I feel irritable to my closest friends and family." And my (for you girls) period has gone A*W*O*L or is speratic at best and may come every two weeks. Dudes donít think about getting any every 2 seconds like usual for us (now that should tell you something)
    Velocity

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator
    No it's not. Over-reaching and over training are two different terms. One is to describe short term fatigue with a more than unusual effort or distance and the other is chronic fatigue which takes a lot longer to recover.

    I'd also like to see some evidence where someone says that overreaching and overtraining is the same thing. And it has to be valid, intelligent literature, not some proctologist turned personal trainer who promotes steroid use to enhance muscle cell rigidity or some crazy stuff like that.
    I have absolutely no articles on that because "over-reaching" isn't a term used in any textbooks to describe a state of fatigue. It's ALWAYS explained as "overtraining". So if you want to educate, by all means, I'm sitting back, waiting on the education. Give me some sources where they talk about "over-reaching" and how it comes about, how to treat it, etc. Sorry, I can't produce literature about something that simply is not a term that is used in the fitness industry.

    Your turn. I'm (still) waiting.

    Koffee

  17. #17
    cab horn
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    I have absolutely no articles on that because "over-reaching" isn't a term used in any textbooks to describe a state of fatigue. It's ALWAYS explained as "overtraining".
    But see, that's not what you claimed, and you just told us you have absolutely no evidence of said claim.

    I win.

  18. #18
    Kelly Drive Amateur Boogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius

    Active recovery is superior to massage. But if you want to waste your time and money go ahead.
    I didn't say that active recovery wasn't better, I said that I benefit from massage. Also, I don't waste any time OR money - when I throw my leg onto my bureau to stretch my hamstrings, I will usually massage my quads.

    ...and before you start your anti-stretching diatribe, I need to stretch my hamstrings for the safety of my back. Those are orders from an ACTUAL DOCTOR.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by operator
    But see, that's not what you claimed, and you just told us you have absolutely no evidence of said claim.

    I win.

    No problem. Obviously, you have nothing.... as usual...

    Koffee

  20. #20
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    Well, alright. If it isn't, show me where in the fitness literature where they define "over-reaching" and "overtraining".

    Koffee
    Why bother? You still belive the antiquated notion that lactic acid somehow remains in the muscles the day after a hard ride. Lactate completely disperses with rest within about 90-mins, even after a supramaximal effort. It does not linger there for some massage therapist to dispense.

    You also preach pro-cross training, even though that won't help a person become a better cyclist. You still preach stretching, when there is no direct link between stretching and athletic peformace.

    Yadda yadda yadda. The list is too long. I'm not going to waste my time.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  21. #21
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogs
    I didn't say that active recovery wasn't better, I said that I benefit from massage. Also, I don't waste any time OR money - when I throw my leg onto my bureau to stretch my hamstrings, I will usually massage my quads.

    ...and before you start your anti-stretching diatribe, I need to stretch my hamstrings for the safety of my back. Those are orders from an ACTUAL DOCTOR.
    There is no compelling evidence that stretching prevents injury at all. I'm a bit surprised to see a pro-stretcher quoting the Honolulu study. The one being referred to (Lally 1994) found a 35% greater injury rate in people who *do* stretch, not the other way round. See:

    http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coach...ol44/lally.htm

    Equally, studies into distance runners show that flexibility negatively correlates with performance. See Jones 2002 and Craib et al. 1996.

    The idea that hamstring tightness causes a loss in power is derived from a lack of understanding of cycling biomechanics. The knee flexor is actuallly *engaged* during the downstroke, although this seems counterintuitive to some. Just try holding your hamstring while you ride and you'll see what I mean.

    Stretching before exercise causes an acute loss in muscle strength. Although this shouldn't bother endurance cyclists it's worth bearing in mind if you're a trackie. See:

    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...ract/89/3/1179

    At the moment just about the only positive evidence for stretching is that it might increase strength a little if done regularly, but again this is of little consequence to endurance riders.
    As far as improved (at least acute) recovery is concerned see:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15199225

    These comments are in no way intended to knock stretching if someone is suffering from limited mobility, just that there is no evidence that it will help you go quicker if you're a fit competitive cyclist.

    Courtesy of Biker-Linz from another cycling forum.

    I've already presented studies on why massage is a waste of time but you are still going to do it. Knock yourself out.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  22. #22
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    Ummmm... I believe no such thing about lactate. I believe that lactate is converted back to pyruvate to re-enter the Krebs Cycle within a couple of hours of the end of the activity. Lactate certainly does not remain in the blood for so long, and if you read my post about DOMS, you would have seen that for yourself. Please don't put words in my mouth.

    If people ask about cross training, I tell them it helps. But I am not screeching that it's a "must" to cross train. If you do it, fine. If you don't, fine. But athletic performance in one area is not supplemented by cross training. I never said that, but I guess you interpret whatever I say to suit your negativity. Fine.

    I preach stretching post-exercise. I do not say that stretching increases or decreases athletic performance. Show me where I said someone's athletic performance would increase from stretching. Dood, again you put words in my mouth. Clearly, you are not cognizant of what I am talking about, or you deliberately misinterpret what I say so you can diatribe negatively about it for your own useless platform.

    Yadda yadda yadda and ditto. Still nothing to back your claims, so the predictable and usual backlash you use when you can't show anything appreciative spews forth from you.
    *yawn* No point to even bothering with debating much with you. I asked for some evidence to back what you say, but you don't have it because it doesn't exist (as usual). Clearly, you lack the background to even bother. I'd rather deal with folks who at least have a fighting chance. *yawn*

    GNC has an opening in sales. Apply. It's right up your alley.

    Koffee

  23. #23
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    Ummmm... I believe no such thing about lactate. I believe that lactate is converted back to pyruvate to re-enter the Krebs Cycle within a couple of hours of the end of the activity. Lactate certainly does not remain in the blood for so long, and if you read my post about DOMS, you would have seen that for yourself. Please don't put words in my mouth.
    I recently read a post by you that stated something about getting the remaining lactate out of some posters legs. It was within the past couple of days. So yes do did state something to that effect. You stated EXACTLY that, get some massage the day after to get the remaining lactate out of your legs.

    If people ask about cross training, I tell them it helps. But I am not screeching that it's a "must" to cross train. If you do it, fine. If you don't, fine. But athletic performance in one area is not supplemented by cross training. I never said that, but I guess you interpret whatever I say to suit your negativity. Fine.
    I've also read where you recommended some poster keep up the crosstraining as it will help them become a better cyclist. This has been a couple of weeks ago but it was somebody wanting to know if they should run and swim to help with their cycling. Why would you tell them it helps when it doesn't? What's the point? I remember that one because I said that it didn't help but you contradicted that. I stated if they wanted to improve their cycling then it should be done on the bike. You stated "you should definitely keep up the crosstraining."

    I preach stretching post-exercise. I do not say that stretching increases or decreases athletic performance. Show me where I said someone's athletic performance would increase from stretching. Dood, again you put words in my mouth. Clearly, you are not cognizant of what I am talking about, or you deliberately misinterpret what I say so you can diatribe negatively about it for your own useless platform.
    If it isn't something that is going to help improve their performace, then why have them do it? Wouldn't it be better for them to spend more time on the bike? Or doing active recovery? Or fixing some spaghetti? Or ANYTHING but stretching if that doesn't help improve their performance? What's the use of it if it isn't going to help? Just so they can say "Hey, look at me! I can touch the floor"?

    I don't have a platform. I don't charge people for advice. I just think that it is important not to misguide these people, many of whom are newbs and don't know what they should be doing. I don't build up any false hopes or expectations that swimming, stretching or massage is going to help them in any way shape or form when it comes to improving their cycling performance. They don't. In fact they are most likey to injur themselves stretching, impede recovery by swimming and massage is just a panzy way of passing the time. It may make for nice water cooler conversations but it won't improve one's cycling performance no matter how you slice it or dice it.

    I kind of liked the part about applying at GNC though. Nice touch!

    Edit: as you can see in my above posts, I provide links to the science behind what I preach. I've not seen you do so much. Who should people believe?
    Last edited by Doctor Morbius; 06-17-05 at 07:03 PM.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  24. #24
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    Ok, go ahead and pull up the posts. I know I DID NOT say it, so if you accuse me, then pull them up. I'll correct what it, but I know better. Learned people know better. It's the unlearned that usually lack the knowledge to correctly interpret statements, leading to grandiose diatribes and accusations about what they think someone said.

    Again, GNC is your hangout. That place and Bally Fitness.

    There is no science behind the over-reaching you claim is this guy's symptoms, nor have you even tried to apply it. Instead, since you obviously have little knowledge behind your claims, you instead choose to attack many people who have all contributed to the discussion, leading to a lame link about stretching, which has NOTHING to do with what the person who started this thread asked about. You can provide all the links you want, but until you give some valid, credible sources about your original claims, I (and the others who've argued against you) have no reason to take you seriously.

    Again, you misinterpret things I've said to suit yourself, but that's to be expected, when you don't quite have all the crayons to make up your crayola box.

    Koffee

  25. #25
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Really Koffee. What's next? Aromatherapy?
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

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