Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Glycogen Window

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    95
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Glycogen Window

    Recent research shows that there is a 30 minute window after exercise to replenish glycogen in the muscles.

    My inclination is to fill this window with BEER. What does everyone think about the pros and cons of beer as a recovery beverage?

    The purpose of this thread may well be to allow us all guilt-free beer consumption. Itfs 35 degrees and 80% humidity in Tokyo and I know I wonft be able to resist a cold one after riding home from work tonight.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,086
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't think this is a new concept as I first read about it probably 5 years ago .If I remember correctly it refers to simple carbs being preferentially shuttled to the muscle as glycogen storage without the normal insulin increase.So if beer is a simple rather than compex carb I would say you have a good idea .If not you may want to mix some gatorade with your beer maybe opt for a rum and coke instead LOL.

  3. #3
    Jubalayo Unogwaja! Bokkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bollocks!
    Posts
    1,089
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Mostly correct. As an insulin-dependent diabetic, the issue of glucose/glycogen/glycogenolysis/gluconeogenesis is something I need to take into account. All alcohol is bad, depending on where you are sitting (on the couch at home, or on a barstool in your local hostelry!). Seriously, it stimulates the liver to dump glucose. Following exercise, your glucose might be running low, so a few beers will stimulate an increase in glucose - so maybe you feel justified now, eh?

    Exercise stimulates new metabolic pathways to be opened, so you can continue to use a higher than normal amount of glucose for a few hours following exercise. I don't drink that often (one beer a month or so) because of the effect alcohol has on my glucose, which is not good news for someone with type 1 diabetes - I need to control my glucose as tightly as possible. Having said that, there are people who drink to excess and is that good for you as well? Enjoy the beers. They taste darned fine after a good workout. I know what it's like to have a beer with buddies. I miss that...

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,086
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So I guess you are saying if you must drink after a workout is the best time.I don't drink myself so I didn't factor in the effects of the alcohol itself because I am not up on them.

  5. #5
    Jubalayo Unogwaja! Bokkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bollocks!
    Posts
    1,089
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I guess that's an individual thing. If I were to have a beer, I'd save it for after I've showered and cooled down, so it becomes a social thing. I don't advocate drinking after exercise, except to replace fluid and electrolytes, and there are better options than beer for that - but maybe they don't taste as good. Problem with alcohol, is that its effect on glucose dumping by the liver is unpredictable and there are better and faster ways to get glucose into the body if you really need it. Eating a banana provides a quick carb/glucose fix and fruit in general is ok as fructose is a relatively slow-release glucose. Something like pure dextrose though, eaten in tablet form, is absorbed through the mouth lining so it gets in and works almost instantly.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,086
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Most bodybuilding formulas that try to capitalize on this use dextrose and I used to buy it at a home brew supply store LOL for post workout drinks but don't sweat it so much anymore and just use fruits and oatmeal in postworkout drinks.It all gets to storage eventually(though I don't think fruits are actually good for glycogen storage)and really don't like or tolerate well myself large amounts of refined simple carbs.

  7. #7
    Jubalayo Unogwaja! Bokkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bollocks!
    Posts
    1,089
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Fruit would not be the ideal choice for conversion to glycogen I admit. It does provide a reasonable amount of glucose so for post-workout usage, I'd use it for that purpose - providing the glucose I need. A lot of research has been done into food, and the glycaemic index is beginning to achieve widespread acceptance and importance. My local diabetes unit here in the UK are suprisingly uninformed about it but it does have merit. Oats are rich in carbs, but it takes a while for it to be absorbed in the gut, and by the time it does get into the body, your glucose demands have probably been satiated so the excess glucose gets stored accordingly. Typically, the liver stores about 100g of glycogen and that converts quickly. Excess is stored in fat. When I exercise, I tend to eat an hour before so that when I get 'going', I have the glucose kicking in and that helps to use what I eat. Of course, I inject insulin as well, so that's a bit like lighting the fuse on a stick of dynamite so glucose intake is something I am always consciously aware of.

    I think the issue of sports nutrition is a goodly deal more complex. Lance Armstrong apparently weighs his food so he can count the calories and plan his workouts on the road around that. That's always easier when someone does the cooking for you. We do not have that going for us. I guess most people tend to deal with nutrition as an afterthought. The best way it was described to me by a professional athlete I know is this: drink before you are thirsty, eat before you are hungry.

  8. #8
    Goes both ways - MTB/RB LegalIce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Newburgh, IN, USA
    Posts
    111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I, too, am insulin dependent, but have 3-4 beers a week, and a few glasses of wine. The impact on my control seems to be very low.

    Last month's Bicycling magazine (I know...) had a short article that also compared water, beer, fruit juice and a sports drink (gatorade?). Beer isn't that bad as long as you limit your intake. The article is available at http://www.bicycling.com/cda/article...76-101,00.html but without the comparison chart...

    bicycle Pronunciation Key (bskl, -s-kl, -skl) n.
    A vehicle consisting of a light frame mounted on two wire-spoked wheels one behind the other and having a seat, handlebars for steering, brakes, and two pedals...
    www.dictionary.com

  9. #9
    Don't Believe the Hype RiPHRaPH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    chicagoland area
    My Bikes
    1999 Steelman SR525, 2002 Lightspeed Ultimate, 1988 Trek 830, 2008 Scott Addict
    Posts
    2,585
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i have tried many things to replenish myself after hard rides. there is nnothing more refreshing than a COKE or SPRITE (39gm sugar and 39gm carbs)

    its the only time i drink non-diet stuff. the pro's don't need to watch their weight because they do burn it off.
    I have enough words to get me into trouble, but not enough to get me out of trouble.

  10. #10
    Senior Member cowgirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    whoville
    Posts
    76
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hey Bokkie, how would that apply for someone with low blood sugar? Last night was a running night for me and I ran 4 miles for the first time since '96 (I think I've only done it twice). After that I rode my bike for 2.5 miles while my better half was running. We came in and ate dinner around 7:30, then pop corn (and my nightly chocolate milk--starting to fight osteoporosis early, at least that's the excuse I use) around 9:30 because I was already starving again. Then I had a horrible night. I woke up at 3:15 and didn't get back to sleep until around 5:30 (with only 45 minutes left before I had to drag myself out of bed). I ate some peanut butter crackers around 4:15 which typically helps, but not last night.

  11. #11
    Jubalayo Unogwaja! Bokkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bollocks!
    Posts
    1,089
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I guess each persons metabolism works differently though the underlying physiology is the same. Take the non-diabetic model of insulin. The pancreas secretes about 25-30 units per day, or roughly 0.1 unit per hour. This is the basal secretion. Eating and drinking stimulate a bolus secretion that can secrete an additional 3 units per hour. That boosts the uptake of glucose into the cells. Insulin (as a hormone) targets the liver specifically to 'turn off' the conversion of glycogen back to glucose. Insulin secretion normally stabilises about 2 hours after eating. If you exercise and your glucose falls low, the counter-regulatory hormone glucagon is secreted in quantity. That stimulates the liver to start 'dumping' glucose. When the liver's stored capacity of glycogen is close to, or has been depleted, muscle fibres, and fat are broken down into glucose through a process called gluconeogenesis - basically a long word that describes how amino acids are combined to form glucose. That gets released into the blood and thus provides energy for the cells. This process maintains blood glucose within a tight tolerance.

    After you exercise, your body continues to use glucose for several hours after you stop. Once you eat, and depending what you eat, the food/drink consumed is absorbed through the gut, but that can occur long after your body starts to say "Hey! I need some glucose." Roughly translated, it takes a while for gluconeogenesis to provide enough glucose to satisfy the demand, so you are 'prompted' to address the shortfall by way of hunger and thirst. It's an exquisite mechanism. You can cope with physical discomfort without too much trouble, but the brain demands about 100g of glucose a day. When that runs short, you get all sorts of spooky symptons aka hypoglycaemia. Type 1 diabetics (like me) know this all to well. Waking up early (as in your case) might just be the body prompting you to boost the glucose. You know you've eaten, but the delay in getting the carbs to where they are needed might not be quick enough. In truth, non-diabetics are seldom affected by this as much as those of us on insulin. Once I inject, I can't switch it off. Your body regulates very precisely what you need, but I never know whether I've 'overdosed' when I inject - that can only become apparent later.

    From the exercise point of view, if you are going to do an extended period of activity, it is better to 'top up' as you exercise. Eating is maybe not so good, as it makes you feel bloated, though energy bar snacks, glucose drinks etc are light enough to give you the boost you need. It is also not good to eat directly after exercise, as there are functions at work in the body that are trying to correct an immediate objective. If you eat a little bit often, and hydrate correctly with electrolytic compounds, you'll find you will be able to sustain exercise for longer periods, and recovery after exercise will be better. Of course, you don't see 5000m athletes stopping for a sandwhich and a Coke, but neither do you see marathon runners going the whole way without having anything. There are extremes in nutrition replenishment in any sport. What you need to do is flatten the curve. That is, you solve the problem ahead of time, rather than let your body inform you with a 'panic attack' in the early hours of the morning say, where you get up with a bad attack of the 'munchies'.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,086
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You definately know more about liver and blood sugar metabolism than me and with good reason but my understanding there is a glycogen store within the muscles as an intermediate source of energy between the more limited liver stores and the body breaking down muscle .Is this not true to your understanding?

  13. #13
    Senior Member cowgirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    whoville
    Posts
    76
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think I know what you mean. Up until a month ago, when I would exercise after work, I would feel absolutely dead tired, and crazed with hunger. Then I started eating a snack 30 minutes to an hour before exercise and I can tell a huge difference in my energy level while exercising.

  14. #14
    human velocipedio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    living in the moment
    My Bikes
    2005 Litespeed Teramo, 2000 Marinoni Leggero, 2001 Kona Major Jake (with Campy Centaur), 1997 Specialized S-Works M2, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper
    Posts
    3,563
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I may be off base here, but I'd imagine consuming alcohol in the glycogen gap cold be a little dangerous. Wouldn't there be some kind of ketoacidotic reaction?

    As I understand the research moreover, though the glycogen debt lasts for about 30-45 minutes, insulin receptors are more sensitive for 1-2 hours after an intense workout. Consequently, those with functioning insulin receptions [what are they called -- delta cells, or something like that?] will metabolize glucose more efficently for quite a while after a ride...
    when walking, just walk. when sitting, just sit. when riding, just ride. above all, don't wobble.

    The Irregular Cycling Club of Montreal
    Cycling irregularly since 2002

  15. #15
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    My Bikes
    Fuji CCR1, Specialized Roubaix
    Posts
    4,274
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by Bokkie
    All alcohol is bad, depending on where you are sitting (on the couch at home, or on a barstool in your local hostelry!). Seriously, it stimulates the liver to dump glucose.

    Enjoy the beers. They taste darned fine after a good workout. I know what it's like to have a beer with buddies. I miss that...
    Actually, consumption of alcohol causes your liver to divert its attention away from glucose regulation in favor of processing the alcohol in the drink. Alcohol consumption can result in a low blood sugar reaction rather than the production of excess glucose.

    Nevertheless, I certainly agree with the second statement. I do miss it. Gave it all up about a year ago in order to avoid nutritionally "wasted" calories and grams of carb in favor of stuff that is good for me. I do indeed miss it.

    Carl
    Just Peddlin' Around

  16. #16
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    My Bikes
    Fuji CCR1, Specialized Roubaix
    Posts
    4,274
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by velocipedio
    Consequently, those with functioning insulin receptions [what are they called -- delta cells, or something like that?] will metabolize glucose more efficently for quite a while after a ride...
    It has been my experience that the effects of a decent workout on my glucose levels can last as long as 2 days. Nevertheless, I try to get at least 30 minutes of aerobic exercise daily, frequenty much more than that, and to lift weights 3 days per week.

    Carl
    Just Peddlin' Around

  17. #17
    Center of the Universe ngateguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Everett, WA
    My Bikes
    Bianchi San Remo, Norvara Intrepid MTB , Softride Solo 700
    Posts
    4,363
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Originally posted by RWTD
    If not you may want to mix some gatorade with your beer maybe opt for a rum and coke instead LOL.
    1/2 beer 1/2 lemonade an ex girlfriend used to make those very good especially on a hot day
    Matthew 6

  18. #18
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    8,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've read that both carbs and protein are important soon after the ride to replenish muscles stores and rebuild tissues quickest.

    Funny thing is, I don't feel that hungry right away after riding. Is my body trying to tell me something?

    But I follow my mind, not my hunger, when it comes to this, at least until I read otherwise.
    No worries

  19. #19
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    8,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Also, it's possible the "hungry muscles" are part of what makes cycling and other exercises helpful to many diabetics.
    No worries

  20. #20
    Jubalayo Unogwaja! Bokkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bollocks!
    Posts
    1,089
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Actually, consumption of alcohol causes your liver to divert its attention away from glucose regulation in favor of processing the alcohol in the drink. Alcohol consumption can result in a low blood sugar reaction rather than the production of excess glucose.
    Carl, you are quite correct. In the haste to get the reply done, I had given the wrong information. It did bug me last night, so I looked into it and I was clearly wrong with what I said. Thanks for the correction.

  21. #21
    Jubalayo Unogwaja! Bokkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Bollocks!
    Posts
    1,089
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I may be off base here, but I'd imagine consuming alcohol in the glycogen gap cold be a little dangerous. Wouldn't there be some kind of ketoacidotic reaction?
    It is relatively minor in the short term. Ketoacidosis is formed as a product of gluconeogenesis. The body produces ketones (a member of the acetone group of compounds) in response to gng. Ketones are quickly expelled from the body, mainly in urine, but in gas form they are expelled through the lungs. In extreme cases, the breath smells quite fruity. In any case, ketones are extremely toxic, and virtually no organ is left unscathed. In truth, the ketones produced are trace residues and seldom cause any problem - normally.

    As I understand the research moreover, though the glycogen debt lasts for about 30-45 minutes, insulin receptors are more sensitive for 1-2 hours after an intense workout. Consequently, those with functioning insulin receptions [what are they called -- delta cells, or something like that?] will metabolize glucose more efficently for quite a while after a ride...
    That's the great thing about exercise. Insulin stimulates the uptake of glucose using one of a handfull of specific glucose transporters (GLUT-4 more precisely). Exercise opens new metabolic pathways, and as a result, cells produce more glucose transporters and that provides a greater potential to increase insulin sensitivity. Insulin is produced in the beta cells, the delta cells produce somatostatiin that helps to regulate the insulin (beta) and glucagon (alpha). Insulin has 1/2 life of about 5mins once it is in blood serum. It degrades naturally in the liver (80% is targeted at the liver). Following exercise, and I can't remember the exact physiology involved, but there is something called the Krebs cycle that explains the conversion of glucose/energy ultimately into adenosinetriphosphate (ATP). As a part of the overall integrated process, insulin sensitivity is boosted. The 1/2 life is still 5 mins but you get more bang from your buck - sorry to put it so crudely. Excessive insulin (hyperinsulinaemia) is linked to heart disease, not on its own but because insulin the primary fat building hormone. The more fat there is in free circulation, the greater the potential to obstruct blood flow. Then again, we all know how good exercise is for the heart anyway. Did we ever need a better reason to go riding?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •