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  1. #1
    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
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    Growing slow twitch muscle?

    What's happening when I'm growing muscle? Can I do weight workouts and grow slow twitch muscle?

    Can I do anything which will help with growing muscle and capillaries/mitochondria at the same time or do I have to grow muscle first and then do endurance work to make those muscles work efficiently?

  2. #2
    Extreme nutter
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    Endurance work delevops mainly slow twitch fibres. So as you increase your mileage your increasing you slow twitch fibres.

    dont expect to put masses of bulk on though as slow twitch fbres are smaller than there fast twich power friends.

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    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
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    So the quad machine at the gym does what for me? Nothing?

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuan
    What's happening when I'm growing muscle? Can I do weight workouts and grow slow twitch muscle?

    Can I do anything which will help with growing muscle and capillaries/mitochondria at the same time or do I have to grow muscle first and then do endurance work to make those muscles work efficiently?
    There's research that shows you actually never change the ratio of numbers slow-twitch to fast-twitch muscles fibres. But rather you change the size-ratio between them with strength workouts. This increases the size of fast-twich muscles relative to slow-twitch. There's really no way to work one or other exclusively.

    And endurance has nothing to do with muscle-strength, it's all about energy-delivery and efficiency. Endurance rides and workouts are typically done at less than 30% of max muscle-strength anyway, so you're not taxing either types of muscle.

    Let me backtrack... what kind of results are you trying to achieve? In measurable, yes/no, black&white, quantifiable terms?

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    Climbing Fool terrymorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuan
    Can I do anything which will help with growing muscle and capillaries/mitochondria at the same time or do I have to grow muscle first and then do endurance work to make those muscles work efficiently?
    You can grow muscle, increase mitochondria, and build capillaries all at the same time, by exercising. Here are the most effective aerobic/anaerobic levels that produce the desired adaptations:

    Mitochondria: level 4
    Slow-twitch muscle hypertrophy: level 5
    Muscle capillarization: level 5

    So if you want to get these adaptations quickly, you need to do some pretty intense exercise. Level 4 is lactate threshold, level 5 is VO2max. Think intervals.
    Managing Director, Undiscovered Country Tours

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    mountain troll deadly downtube's Avatar
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    last year i did a bike tour from west coast to east coast, 3600mi, avg 88mi per day... wasn't very difficult, slow easy pace every day... tried the local time trial and rode a pretty good time.... long slow miles seemed to work pretty well for me.

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    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
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    What am I trying to do? I'm trying to build muscle so I can get my HR up to max! I seem to be running out of legs before I hit my HR max.

    I'm a little confused as you can tell.

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    bhh
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    Senior Member bhh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuan
    What am I trying to do? I'm trying to build muscle so I can get my HR up to max! I seem to be running out of legs before I hit my HR max.

    I'm a little confused as you can tell.
    Spin faster

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    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhh
    Spin faster
    Up a hill? I can't, not even in 39-25. Get a triple?

  10. #10
    UareFASTjustNOTfastENOUGH MasterSezFaster's Avatar
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    The thing about muscles, you are stuck with what you were given. If you have primarily fast twitch or slow that is what you will always have. You can train to increase your performance for either but you can not gain any more then what you have once your muscles are fully developed. Well you could go the growth hormone route but I would highly advise against that.

    An example, I my self have an endomorph body structure and more fast twitch then slow but because of the way I have always trained I can ride a century or even a double at a decent pace but because of the make up of my muscles I still have some power for the sprints.

    When lifting weights you are not increasing the amount of muscle cells or fibers but the size of them. The heavier the weight the bigger they need to be to push it. If you are trying for more power with regards to sprinting then the type of gym exercises you should be doing should be very explosive with higher weights. Meaning, when you get to the bottom (or top depending on the exercise) pause for just a moment then snap the weight quickly up then lower it, just be sure you do this in a controlled manner AND with propper form or you can very easily end up with an injury.

    Stick with core exercises such as squats, dead lifts (not straight leg) and leg press. Be sure you also do leg curls and even some lunges but do not do with the "snap", nice and controlled. These would just be for the lower body. You should hit some upper body workouts as well.

    As for combining endurance work with power, you should break them up, say 6 weeks of power training and then 6 weeks of endurance training. Keep in mind that even during the power phase you should still be cycling just as far as normal but with a little less effort. Then when you switch to the endurance phase increase the effort on your rides.

    I am in a bit of a friendly mood to day (not often ) but I hope that helps you out.

    MSF

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    UareFASTjustNOTfastENOUGH MasterSezFaster's Avatar
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    Hehe, just read that you are trying to reach your max hr. you should be able to hit your max HR but depending on what type of shape you are in you may not be there very long, <1 sec

    Also depending on your fitness level your max may be higher or lower then what " the books" say it should be. Maybe you have hit it.

    Here is a very easy way to hit your mx, find a long steep hill and bust your a$$ up it until you can not breath or just start puking. Either way you wil hit your max. You will need to fight through the pain though so just suck it up and go for it. May not be the healthiest thing but it works.

    MSF

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    Climbing Fool terrymorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterSezFaster
    The thing about muscles, you are stuck with what you were given. If you have primarily fast twitch or slow that is what you will always have.
    Whether or not endurance exercise can convert muscle fiber type from Type II (fast twitch) to Type I (slow twitch) has not been established. The problem is that if such a conversion does occur, it happens over a long time scale. And it's hard to test for such long term changes.

    There is evidence to suggest that conversion does occur, but there haven't been any studies to demonstrate it conclusively. My guess is that conversion does happen with aerobic exercise, but it takes years.

    But you definitely can convert Type IIa fibers to Type IIb. The Type IIb fibers are more "aerobic" and are more fatigue resistant than the Type IIa.
    Managing Director, Undiscovered Country Tours

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuan
    What am I trying to do? I'm trying to build muscle so I can get my HR up to max! I seem to be running out of legs before I hit my HR max.

    I'm a little confused as you can tell.
    Ah... you need more muscle-strength overall then. As Terry mentioned about, you need more sprints and intervals. You need to work out more in the HR-zones between your LT and max-HR. Especially the sprints and hill-intervals, and spin easier gears.

    Spinning faster will generate more power for the same muscle-strength, so it'll require more oxygen/sec from more muscle-contractions/sec. Which will balance out your strength vs. aerobic system more. Do some weight-training in the gym this winter, especially if you're stuck indoors due to the weather.
    Last edited by DannoXYZ; 10-07-05 at 10:53 AM.

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    UareFASTjustNOTfastENOUGH MasterSezFaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrymorse
    Whether or not endurance exercise can convert muscle fiber type from Type II (fast twitch) to Type I (slow twitch) has not been established. The problem is that if such a conversion does occur, it happens over a long time scale. And it's hard to test for such long term changes.

    There is evidence to suggest that conversion does occur, but there haven't been any studies to demonstrate it conclusively. My guess is that conversion does happen with aerobic exercise, but it takes years.

    But you definitely can convert Type IIa fibers to Type IIb. The Type IIb fibers are more "aerobic" and are more fatigue resistant than the Type IIa.
    Since it has not been established yet is why I did not mention that fact. As for the IIa turning into IIb, what rock have you been under? I am just messin' with ya. The conversion with in the types is possible or atleast there is evidence it can occure. They have however converted muscle fibers in laboratory animals and only now are starting to truly test humans. I would venture to say that it is possible, just not proven yet.

    I do believe though that you have the types backwards, IIb is less aerobic and IIa is more of a hybrid, more aerobic. I would have to check on that though just to be sure.

    MSF

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    Climbing Fool terrymorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterSezFaster
    I do believe though that you have the types backwards, IIb is less aerobic and IIa is more of a hybrid, more aerobic.

    You're right, I got the names backwards. Here's a summary of the types:

    http://home.hia.no/~stephens/fibtype2.htm
    Managing Director, Undiscovered Country Tours

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    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
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    I want to make my intervals count by hitting my max HR on at least a few of them. I can't because I run out of legs, but in order to hit my max HR I gotta do more intervals. I know I can improve without hitting max HR so how important is it?

    Also, if I hit the gym and do explosive type lifting is that training my anerobic ability rather than my aerobic? So if I build that kind of muscle will it contribute to helping me push to a high HR? My HR doesn't jump much past 115 when doing weights at the gym, will that translate to the bike?

    After this thread I'm not going to read anymore about training.

  17. #17
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuan
    I want to make my intervals count by hitting my max HR on at least a few of them. I can't because I run out of legs, but in order to hit my max HR I gotta do more intervals. I know I can improve without hitting max HR so how important is it?
    It's fine if you don't hit max-HR, just go until something gives out. Your legs in this case. But, do use easier gears to save the legs and tax the HR & lungs more. Try a gradual acceleration in the last 30-seconds of an interval without shifting. End the interval at 120-130rpms and you should be able to hit max-HR. Practice starting this acceleration from 20 to 40-seconds out and balance it with the acceleration-rate and you'll find a combination that'll have you max out your HR right at the end of the interval time.

    Although personally, I find it easier to do intervals at a fixed speed and effort above LT to make it easier to monitor the gradually rising HR to max. But I'm the opposite of you where I have sufficient leg-strength to max out my HR anytime I want, so my primary training goal is to increase aerobic capacity. So the differences in our training programmes will be that I'll focus more on the long intervals and hill-climbs while you want to do more sprints and short intervals.


    Quote Originally Posted by kuan
    Also, if I hit the gym and do explosive type lifting is that training my anerobic ability rather than my aerobic? So if I build that kind of muscle will it contribute to helping me push to a high HR? My HR doesn't jump much past 115 when doing weights at the gym, will that translate to the bike?
    Well, what you're doing is building strength in the muscles. Aerobic vs. anaerobic has more to do with how you balance your power-output with your cardio system. Stronger muscles tend to be more aerobic for the same power-output. A fit trained athlete can put out 500w at only 60-70% of his max-strength and can be roughly 50/50 aerobic/anaerobic. An untrained athlete with weak muscles may also put out 500w, but will be at 100% max-strength and 100% anaerobic. Guess who's going to be able to hold that 500w effort longer? And if the trained athlete cranks it up 100% of his max-strength, he's gonna leave the other guy in the dust.

    There is a point where weight-training won't make much of a difference. But I think that level of performance is typically only reached after 4-5 years of regimented training, or 5-7 years of casual weekend-warrior training; roughly the level of cat-1/2/pro racers. So for most people out there, weight/strength-training will be of benefit. Note that weight-training is NOT a substitute for any other kind of training like sprints, intervals, hill-climbs or endurance rides. It's in addition to those workouts. There's some links to various papers on strength/weight-training here: am I damaging my muscles?. Note that there are biking-specific programmes that changes the types of workouts over time. The last two to three weeks of the regimen is vitally important.
    Last edited by DannoXYZ; 10-07-05 at 05:42 PM.

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