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Thread: Fact or Fable?

  1. #1
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Fact or Fable?

    Curious about what you think about evening drinks? Does it really make a difference what you drink
    at night?

    Some say even if you bike, if you drink a beer each night you'll get a beer gut.
    Others say, even if you bike, drinking a glass of wine each night will not build the weight gains that beer will.

    So. both fables or truth or half/half?
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    Carbs after 8 or so at night are a bad idea, no matter what form they are in if you are trying to lose weight. I have not seen wine drinkers with guts like beer drinkers, so who the hell knows!

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    Lost in the Black Hills mx_599's Avatar
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    FABLE

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    Climbing Fool terrymorse's Avatar
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    Calories in - calories out = weight gain

    How and when you get your calories has little to do with it.
    Managing Director, Undiscovered Country Tours

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    Quote Originally Posted by terrymorse
    Calories in - calories out = weight gain

    How and when you get your calories has little to do with it.

    That's not strictly speaking true, as I understand it.
    Eating one huge 3,000 calorie meal is going to change how your metabolism functions as opposed to eating 6 500 calorie meals.

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    Climbing Fool terrymorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekhna
    That's not strictly speaking true, as I understand it.
    Eating one huge 3,000 calorie meal is going to change how your metabolism functions as opposed to eating 6 500 calorie meals.
    I believe those are second order effects and can be ignored for the sake of weight management.

    Draw a control volume around your body. Monitor the heat and work (and mass) output, and measure the energy content of the food eaten. The difference between the two is weight gain/loss. Energy's conserved.
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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrymorse
    Quote Originally Posted by tekhna
    That's not strictly speaking true, as I understand it.
    Eating one huge 3,000 calorie meal is going to change how your metabolism functions as opposed to eating 6 500 calorie meals.
    I believe those are second order effects and can be ignored for the sake of weight management.

    Draw a control volume around your body. Monitor the heat and work (and mass) output, and measure the energy content of the food eaten. The difference between the two is weight gain/loss. Energy's conserved.
    Yes, the timing effects of eating are secondary to total volume. It just determines when you start and stop the stopwatch in the calories-in vs calories-out timing in a 24-hr period. If you start the stopwatch to count calories right after a ride, you'll find that there's a tonne of calories going in initially without any activity to balance it. However, if you start the stopwatch a couple hours earlier, you'll see that there's a big 5-hour ride that occurs right before eating that 1000-calorie meal.

    In the end, it's calories-in vs. calories out. If you eat a 500-calorie deficit per day, you're gonna lose 1-lb/week regardless of when you eat your meals. If you eat it all at once, your body may convert to fat, but that fat will be converted back to supply energy during a ride. If it was carbs eaten right before a ride instead, then your body will burn it instead of fat. In the end, it's still calories-in vs. calories-out.
    Last edited by DannoXYZ; 02-16-06 at 02:09 AM.

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    Danno-Glad to see there are still people out there who understand this.

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    All the above is true only if you're talking WEIGHT (or rather, mass) loss. For FAT loss, and keeping most of your muscle mass, it's not that simple anymore...
    Suddenly, food quality and relative levels of protein, carbohydrates and fat become important. Ask any serious body builder. The body of accumulated experiences of what works and what doesn't is enormous within the BB community.

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    Used to be a climber.. GuitarWizard's Avatar
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    Ummmm.....body builders may have strict diets, but when they're dieting and cutting for a show, it is FAR from healthy for your body and has nothing to do with what atheletes in other sports do. In fact, the last few weeks up to a show, they can become fairly "weak" (compared to when they are on their "normal" diets) and when they are up on stage flexing, it actually takes a lot out of them.

    When they are bulking up, they'll eat a ton of food....generally a well-balanced diet, with an emphasis on proteins and carbs.
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    Ok cal in = cal out. However, we are not talking about food so much as booze.

    Now lets say you drink untill you have a good buzz lets say 4 beers

    4 beers x 150kcal each = 600Cals

    Now for the same amount of alcohol you would drink 590ml wine which is only 410Cal

    If you drank hard booze it only takes about 4.5 shots giving about 315 Cals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic

    If you drank hard booze it only takes about 4.5 shots giving about 315 Cals.

    How do you get that number?
    A shot glass is 1.5oz, which is 28.35g(1.5oz)=42.53g. Alchohol is 7 calories/gram. 1 shot (42.53g) of 80 proof is 17.01 grams of alchohol. Multiple 17.01 by 7 119.07 calories/shot. 4.5 shots is then 535.815 calories, by no means a small amount. Not much less than 4 beers.
    I'd just avoid the stuff anyways, calories or otherwise.

    Danno-I think my point was simply this-When food is spaced out throughout the day, the amount of calories out is greater than if eaten all at once, due to the greater metabolism throughout the day.

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekhna
    Danno-I think my point was simply this-When food is spaced out throughout the day, the amount of calories out is greater than if eaten all at once, due to the greater metabolism throughout the day.
    not if you count across an entire 24-hour period. Calories-out is exactly the same from 8am today to 8am the next day. The only way you're gonna change your calories-out during a 24-hour period is to exercise more. It's not really comparable if you're comparing calories-out for only 12-hours after you eat a meal, because you leave out the other 12-hours. What happens when people start watching their weight and dieting is in addition to trying to "time" their meals, they also end up eating a lot less. It's the total lower number of calories eaten that causes the weight loss, not when they ate it.

    And of course, the type of food you eat makes a difference as fatty/greasy foods have a lot more calories per serving than fruits/veggies & complex-carbs. So dieters also tend to change the type of food they eat, thus also lowering total calories eaten per 24-hour period as well.

    Here's some info on calories and liquor:

    WebMD-Calories in Selected Alcoholic Beverages
    Brewery.org-Beer Alcohol and Calories
    Beer100 - Beer Calories, Carbs, and Alcohol Content
    WeightLossResourceUK -
    Calories in Alcohol


    To find total calories in a drink, you have to add up carb+protein+alcohol calories. Alcohol has 4 cal/gm, it's a carb with an -OH group attached.
    Last edited by DannoXYZ; 02-16-06 at 04:02 PM.

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    Easy use a 1oz shot glass. 535/1.5 = 356Cal... not far off from what I said.

    The numbers are not perfect (thats the "about" part of what I said) but you can see as the drinks % goes up the cals for equiv alcohol goes down. Do the math for yourself using fitday etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    not if you count across an entire 24-hour period. Calories-out is exactly the same from 8am today to 8am the next day. The only way you're gonna change your calories-out during a 24-hour period is to exercise more. It's not really comparable if you're comparing calories-out for only 12-hours after you eat a meal, because you leave out the other 12-hours. What happens when people start watching their weight and dieting is in addition to trying to "time" their meals, they also end up eating a lot less. It's the total lower number of calories eaten that causes the weight loss, not when they ate it.
    I am not going to turn this into a brawl, but constantly having your body digesting food is going to increase the total number of calories you burn in a day. There are many many studies verifying this. I am not sure what you are getting at counting 24 hours, not 12. Of course you count all 24 hours.
    This is an interesting read-It matters when you eat, not what you eat.
    I don't agree with his contention that what you eat doesn't matter, but timing sure makes a difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    And of course, the type of food you eat makes a difference as fatty/greasy foods have a lot more calories per serving than fruits/veggies & complex-carbs. So diets also tend to change the type of food they eat, thus also lowering total calories eaten per 24-hour period as well.

    Here's some info on calories and liquor:

    WebMD-Calories in Selected Alcoholic Beverages
    Brewery.org-Beer Alcohol and Calories
    Beer100 - Beer Calories, Carbs, and Alcohol Content
    WeightLossResourceUK -
    Calories in Alcohol


    To find total calories in a drink, you have to add up carb+protein+alcohol calories. Alcohol has 4 cal/gm, it's a carb with an -OH group attached.
    I don't know where you get this idea that alcohol is only 4 calories/g.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121900285.html
    Otherwise, those are good links you posted. I just avoid booze!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarWizard
    Ummmm.....body builders may have strict diets, but when they're dieting and cutting for a show, it is FAR from healthy for your body and has nothing to do with what atheletes in other sports do. In fact, the last few weeks up to a show, they can become fairly "weak" (compared to when they are on their "normal" diets) and when they are up on stage flexing, it actually takes a lot out of them.
    Given that you can lose the gains of an entire season if you mess up your diet, you can be sure the serious and experienced ones know what they're doing. If regular people want to lose fat, and not just weight (which to a substantial extent can be muscle mass), they'd better do what body builders do and eat like them. They know their stuff - trust me!

    Regarding energy contents of alcoholic beverages. Wine and beer have only alcohol as their energy source. Alcohol provides 7 kcal/g.
    Wine is usually between 7 and 13% alcohol by volume.
    Beer would be anywhere between 1 and 12% (or stronger still), but 4-6% is probably normal.

    To find the energy content of any amount of beer or wine, do the following...
    Take the total amount of beverage in millilitres, multiply by the percentage alcohol divided by 100.
    Multiply by 0.8 to get mass in grams.
    Then multiply by 7 to get the total number of kcal.

    The problem with alcohol is that the body likes it so much that it prefers the alcohol to any other energy source. The fat and blood sugar available will be pretty much left alone while the alcohol is metabolised, and most of the excess energy available will end up stored in various deposits in the body, most of it in the liver in the form of carbohydrates, and fat being another form. That's why you get a beer gut. The alcohol IS partly to blame - it's not just a myth.

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    Bah

    Beer has about 10g of carbs and trace protein.

    See even your formula suggests that:

    341 x 0.05 x 0.8 x 7 = 95... too low an estimate for the real 140 - 150

    Alcohol is metabolized as fat. Hard to explain but it involves NADH and pyruvate pathway blockage forcing lipogenesis.
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    Alcohol is the preferred fuel when it is consumed as CdCf has said. Fat will continue to be transported to the liver but will not be metabolized and fatty liver will occur. Enough of this, and a person will eventually develop cirrhosis, not a beer gut. The beer gut is simply caused by too many kcals. Also, timing of meals is important to maintain insulin levels at a steady state to help prevent fat deposition. People who spread their daily intake throughout the day will have a higher success rate for wt loss than someone who eats only one meal per day. Also, alcohol is not the only source of kcals in beer, it also has CHO. Light beers remove some of the CHO after fermentation to reduce the kcals.

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    Eating 2000 calories once during the day versus eating 400 calories 5 times during the day is almost identical. The difference would be hardly noticeable.

    The danger with alcohol is not just the calories or carbs. Alcohol drops protein synthesis by more than half and fat oxidation by more than half. It also lowers your testosterone.
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    Climbing Fool terrymorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yo-
    Alcohol drops protein synthesis by more than half and fat oxidation by more than half. It also lowers your testosterone.
    Alcohol also reduces the storage of glycogen in muscle and the liver. This is bad news for an endurance athlete.
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    Senior Member spunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdCf
    Given that you can lose the gains of an entire season if you mess up your diet, you can be sure the serious and experienced ones know what they're doing. If regular people want to lose fat, and not just weight (which to a substantial extent can be muscle mass), they'd better do what body builders do and eat like them. They know their stuff - trust me!
    I know a fitness trainer at work whose also somewhat of a bodybuilder and knows an ex-pro lifter.
    The ex-pro told him that nearly all those guys are hopped up on steroids and will quit eating and drinking to lose weight before a show. They basically starve and dehydrate themselves for several days just to lose body fat. Yeah.....they really know what they're doing.....slowly killing themselves.

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    Carbs in beer??? Not in any beer I've ever seen! Except maybe for trace amounts, but not of any nutritional significance.

    Spunky, that's nonsense! What you're talking about is the last couple of days before a competition. What I'm talking about is the diet they're on from several months prior to a competition. Healthier weight loss than that is probably not possible for a human being. The proportion of fat to muscle lost during a weight loss run can be considered a direct measure of how good a diet is.

    Far from everyone is on drugs, but many are, sadly. However, they still have to eat properly to get the best result. And the ones who are not on drugs, will have to eat even better to compensate!

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    Cheap beer: Bud, Coors etc has ~10gm carb and 6 gm alcohol, lite beer has 6 gm carb. The problem with you CdCf is you rink good beer. Beer like Guinness, Anchor Steam an your other bette brews has no carbs because the sugar is fully fermented, thus a higher alcohol content.

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    I don't drink beer at all! Been two and a half years since I last had any alcohol. I was tired of spending every post-drink day in bed, wasting time that could be spent doing something else. Just one beer will make me feel sick the next day.

    But I used to drink lager mostly. Never liked the tasteless dark beers like Guinness.

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    Senior Member spunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdCf
    Carbs in beer??? Not in any beer I've ever seen! Except maybe for trace amounts, but not of any nutritional significance.

    Spunky, that's nonsense! What you're talking about is the last couple of days before a competition. What I'm talking about is the diet they're on from several months prior to a competition. Healthier weight loss than that is probably not possible for a human being. The proportion of fat to muscle lost during a weight loss run can be considered a direct measure of how good a diet is.

    Far from everyone is on drugs, but many are, sadly. However, they still have to eat properly to get the best result. And the ones who are not on drugs, will have to eat even better to compensate!
    Granted that not all bodybuilders are on steroids and I don't know how all of them eat. But the ones I have known tend to be way over proteined. It's really not a good comparison anyway to compare a body builder's diet with a cyclist's or other endurance athlete's. Their respective goals are completely different. Personally, I admit I'm biased. I've never seen the point of building up so much muscle mass. It looks ridiculous and serves no real functional athletic purpose. It makes me chuckle to think how most of those guys will go flabby later in life as they get older and can't keep lifting like they do when younger. I don't know why it is that so many guys are afraid of aerobic excercise. I see lots overweight guys in the gym trying to lose weight by bulking up. It's weird.

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