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Old 03-22-06, 12:17 PM   #1
obsidian
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I've been watching all of you guys argue back and forth r/t low-carb vs. high carb diets.

I've decided to do a science experiment using my body for science.... I know, I know, it is a big sacrifice but I will do it.

I am reading a book called The Paleo Diet for the Athlete. It is not a ketogenic diet per se, it is a diet that restricts carbohydrates. Paleo diets are described in detail in various places on the net and you can find a better description of them than I care to type here. I am a type II diabetic. I am also hoping to lose a few pound while I am at it.

I am going to measure my blood sugars to show what they are doing while I am trying this for the first few days so that I can get an idea of what is going on.

I started a couple of days ago and here is my data so far:

Day 1:

0800 Fasting BS-88
Breakfast-tuna and egg salad, alfalfa sprouts, salsa, walnuts, dried plums
1000 BS-89
Snack-large apple
1200 BS-71
Lunch-Stir fried vegetables and pork, grapes
1400 BS 75
Snack-grapes, plums, walnuts
1600 BS-92
1700 BS-84
Supper-1/2 chicken
2000 BS 84

Used stairs all day at work. 12 hour shift as nursing supervisor in 4 story hospital. Probablly 15 trips up and down and other walking.

Day 2

0700 FBS (83)
breakfast-scrambled eggs, 3 slices bacon, plums, walnuts
0900 BS 84
Snack-large apple
1100-BS 90
Lunch-chicken salad, summer squash
1330-BS 101 (I went and did 10 flights of stairs)
1430-BS 80
snack-banana
1730-BS 64
Supper-chicken salad
Snack-tomatoe/cucumber salad, apple, walnuts, plum
2000-BS 84

Day 3

FBS-80
0600-Breakfast-scrambled eggs, apple, banana
0800-Ride-21 miles
0930-Post ride sugar-94
0940- cup apple sauce and whey powder
1030-BS 71
meal-tuna and egg salad, baked yam

I am also taking Chromium Picolinate, alpa lipoic-acid, grape seed extract, vits. C,E, B complex, zinc, magnesium, and garlic tabs. I also am taking a fiber (metamucil).

I will continue to post my data daily for the first week. I am starting slowly on the rides until I see what happens so that my body can get adjusted so that I don't have any problems. I am feeling better, my blood sugars are stabilized and I don't have any hunger pains. I've already lost 3 pounds!

Last edited by obsidian; 03-22-06 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 03-22-06, 01:27 PM   #2
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Okay I will bite- you have lost 3 pounds in 3 days ? Of what?

Good luck on the experiment, keep it up.
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Old 03-22-06, 02:52 PM   #3
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Okay I will bite- you have lost 3 pounds in 3 days ? Of what?

Good luck on the experiment, keep it up.
No haircuts, amputations, or such. Dry weight in AM.

I suppose it could be water, I've been watching sugars though and water weight shouldn't come off if I'm not depleting muscle glycogen stores. Correct? 1230 sugar was 114, should've eaten only half the yam. Sugar is now 79 at 1345 so I didn't go wrong on yam.

I'll keep reporting data. Weight loss reported if happens, weight gain reported will be treated the same (with less enthusiasm).
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Old 03-22-06, 06:05 PM   #4
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If you're depleting any glycogen stores, you're losing water as well (at 3 grams water per gram of glycogen, IIRC). It could be liver glycogen rather than muscle glycogen.

If your hydration is the same as is the amount of food in your digestive tract, that would be the best guess. 3 pounds is 10,800 calories, and you are hitting that much deficit in 3 days.

As for the diet, it doesn't look that far from South Beach, which is my base diet, though I don't follow the carb limits on days when I'm riding.
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Old 03-22-06, 06:15 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ericgu
If you're depleting any glycogen stores, you're losing water as well (at 3 grams water per gram of glycogen, IIRC). It could be liver glycogen rather than muscle glycogen.

If your hydration is the same as is the amount of food in your digestive tract, that would be the best guess. 3 pounds is 10,800 calories, and you are hitting that much deficit in 3 days.

As for the diet, it doesn't look that far from South Beach, which is my base diet, though I don't follow the carb limits on days when I'm riding.
I'm pretty sure it is water. My vision is changing. When I used to do diabetic education I would warn my patients who were doing what we called a fast-fast (no carbs for a week) that their vision would change. I realize that it isn't fat weight that I've lost too because my body fat scale is showing a higher percentage of BF. It will do that IF you are dry. I've been pushing the fluids.

The one thing that is very pleasing to me is that my blood sugars are in such tight control. I will not check them as often once I get a handle on what I am doing. I can tell when they get too low by how I feel. It is when they get into the 150-200 range that I can't tell that they are up except I have a huge appetite.

My appetite is managable for me right now. I don't feel hungry. I've tried other 'low carb' plans and have felt like crap during the induction phase and have given up on them.

I've just got to keep pushing fluids and be sure to prepare for rides and do a good job of recovery. I'm going to keep after it.
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Old 03-22-06, 06:39 PM   #6
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Also, if blood glucose levels were down, wouldn't intravascular water be down due to decreased osmolality of the blood? I don't want to deplete liver glycogen, I want to decrease blood glucose, triglycerides and keep my energy stores optimized.

1730-BS-81
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Old 03-23-06, 05:36 PM   #7
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Day 4
Weight down another 1.5 pounds
0600 FBS-93
Scrambled Eggs, grapes
0800 50 mile ride, felt well took Gatorade and sipped it during ride.
1300-Out of town at end of ride and had to eat at friend's house had two sandwiches, applejuice and 750 ml Gatorade
1500 BS-133
1630 BS-83

I don't think my glycogen stores are depleted. I felt very well during the ride and did the 50 miles in 3 hours and 5 minutes. I overdid it on the recovery stage today with the bread on the sandwiches but couldn't refuse a meal as a guest. I'll have to be careful for the rest of the day.
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Old 03-24-06, 04:26 PM   #8
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Day 5

Weight down 1.5 lbs

FBS-93
Scrambled Eggs, grapes
yardwork, ride 25 miles
Recovery-1 cup applesauce, protien powder, banana-smoothie
Pork chop, vegetables
1400-BS 113
1500-BS 91
Tangelo
Yardwork
1700-BS 84
Small apple, banana
Supper-Bratwurst, cabbage salad (cabbage, apple slices, pinapple, walnuts, onion and mayonaise).
2100-BS 91

Ride into strong headwind, a little tired today. I'll make just a little less recovery drink for tomorrow and try and keep sugar down below 100.

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Old 03-24-06, 05:46 PM   #9
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One question? Does this diet restrict calories? And are you doing another other diet where the total calories consumed will be the same for comparison?
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Old 03-24-06, 06:14 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cod3man
One question? Does this diet restrict calories? And are you doing another other diet where the total calories consumed will be the same for comparison?
No restriction of calories.

http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html

This is a link to one description of a paleo style diet. The idea is low glycemic-index vegetables with a relatively low glycemic load. Fruit seem to not be bumping up my sugar. I've looked up the GI/GL on them and it is fairly low too.

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Old 03-24-06, 08:10 PM   #11
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Interesting concept....but I can guarantee you that if pizza was around back in the caveman days, they would've been eating that **** like there was no tomorrow.
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Old 03-24-06, 09:15 PM   #12
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I emailed Anthony Colpo (the Omnivore http://www.theomnivore.com/home.html ) about this book, and he said the title is very misleading because a paleo diet has much more fat. The book is co-written by the fat-phobic Liz Cordain. Colpo suggested that low-carb athletes need much more fat.
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Old 03-24-06, 09:34 PM   #13
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Interesting concept....but I can guarantee you that if pizza was around back in the caveman days, they would've been eating that **** like there was no tomorrow.
Made me think of this funny Heywood Banks song:

Toast


All around the country and coast to coast
People always say what do you like most
I don't want to brag, I don't want to boast
I always tell 'em: I like toast.
YEAH TOAST! (etc.)

I get up in the morning 'bout six a.m.
Have a little jelly, have a little jam
Take a piece of bread, put it in the slot
Push down the lever and the wires get hot
I get Toast.
YEAH TOAST! (etc.)

Now there's no secret to toasting perfection
There's a dial on the side and you make your selection
Push to the dark or the light and then
If it pops too soon, press down again and make Toast.
YEAH TOAST!

When the first cavemen drove in from the dregs
Didn't know what would go with the bacon and the eggs
Musta been a genius got it in his head
Plug the toaster in the wall, buy a bag of bread and make Toast.
YEAH TOAST!

Ah oui monsieur bonjour coquette
Ah hah croissant de Chevy Corvette
Maurice chevalier Eiffel Tower
Oui Marie baguette bonsoir
FRENCH TOAST!
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Old 03-24-06, 09:38 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by 531Aussie
I emailed Anthony Colpo (the Omnivore http://www.theomnivore.com/home.html ) about this book, and he said the title is very misleading because a paleo diet has much more fat. The book is co-written by the fat-phobic Liz Cordain. Colpo suggested that low-carb athletes need much more fat.
Well, cavemen got their fat from long-bone marrow, brains, liver, and other internal organs. I haven't seen alot of those in my meat department. I've got a daughter who's husband has a ranch. Maybe I'll have him grass fed-me a steer and I'll hunt it down with my atlatl and kill it!

I've read Colpo's site and he might be right (in the end). For now, I've got enough fat that I'll burn it first.
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Old 03-24-06, 10:06 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by 531Aussie
I emailed Anthony Colpo (the Omnivore http://www.theomnivore.com/home.html ) about this book, and he said the title is very misleading because a paleo diet has much more fat. The book is co-written by the fat-phobic Liz Cordain. Colpo suggested that low-carb athletes need much more fat.

They are recomending 50-65% of the diet be fat. They want you to be choosey about your fats. I don't think there is a disagreement over that. Has Colpo read the book?
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Old 03-24-06, 10:47 PM   #16
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. Has Colpo read the book?
I'm not sure
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Old 03-25-06, 01:12 PM   #17
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Day 6

Weight down 0.5 lb

0600 FBS-93
Scrambled eggs, sausage, tangelo
Yardwork
0900- 31 mile ride, felt well, good energy
1130- BS 83
1200- Applesause, banana, protien powder smoothie
Lunch- Brautwurst, cabbage salad (leftovers baby!)
1445-BS 93 (I drank less smoothie)
1800-Chicken salad
2020-BS-92

Last edited by obsidian; 03-25-06 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 03-27-06, 05:56 AM   #18
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Day 7

Day 7 (yesterday)

Weight down 0.5 Lbs

FBS-83
Did not eat anything until 1330
1330 BS-62
Lunch Hamburger patty, brocolli, orange, banana, scrambled eggs
1530 BS-72
1730 Cabbage Salad
1930 Chicken leg quarter, baked with skin on.
2100 BS-82

No ride today, rest day. Return to work tomorrow and will now report on changes weekly.
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Old 03-27-06, 06:08 AM   #19
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..

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Old 03-27-06, 07:15 AM   #20
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I will bite too.

Being part of a largely skinny population of a south american country, and being familiar with their eating habits, I will give you my impression.

Firstly is the fasting period after you wake up. That looks right to me ... we rarely had more than 150 cals before noon.

Secondly is the workload, it seems right to me too.

Then the rest may vary, but it seems to be nutritionally and calorically on the ballpark.
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Old 03-27-06, 07:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidian
I've been watching all of you guys argue back and forth r/t low-carb vs. high carb diets.

I've decided to do a science experiment using my body for science.... I know, I know, it is a big sacrifice but I will do it.

I am reading a book called The Paleo Diet for the Athlete. It is not a ketogenic diet per se, it is a diet that restricts carbohydrates. Paleo diets are described in detail in various places on the net and you can find a better description of them than I care to type here. I am a type II diabetic. I am also hoping to lose a few pound while I am at it.

I am going to measure my blood sugars to show what they are doing while I am trying this for the first few days so that I can get an idea of what is going on.

I started a couple of days ago and here is my data so far:

Day 1:

0800 Fasting BS-88
Breakfast-tuna and egg salad, alfalfa sprouts, salsa, walnuts, dried plums
1000 BS-89
Snack-large apple
1200 BS-71
Lunch-Stir fried vegetables and pork, grapes
1400 BS 75
Snack-grapes, plums, walnuts
1600 BS-92
1700 BS-84
Supper-1/2 chicken
2000 BS 84

Used stairs all day at work. 12 hour shift as nursing supervisor in 4 story hospital. Probablly 15 trips up and down and other walking.

Day 2

0700 FBS (83)
breakfast-scrambled eggs, 3 slices bacon, plums, walnuts
0900 BS 84
Snack-large apple
1100-BS 90
Lunch-chicken salad, summer squash
1330-BS 101 (I went and did 10 flights of stairs)
1430-BS 80
snack-banana
1730-BS 64
Supper-chicken salad
Snack-tomatoe/cucumber salad, apple, walnuts, plum
2000-BS 84

Day 3

FBS-80
0600-Breakfast-scrambled eggs, apple, banana
0800-Ride-21 miles
0930-Post ride sugar-94
0940- cup apple sauce and whey powder
1030-BS 71
meal-tuna and egg salad, baked yam

I am also taking Chromium Picolinate, alpa lipoic-acid, grape seed extract, vits. C,E, B complex, zinc, magnesium, and garlic tabs. I also am taking a fiber (metamucil).

I will continue to post my data daily for the first week. I am starting slowly on the rides until I see what happens so that my body can get adjusted so that I don't have any problems. I am feeling better, my blood sugars are stabilized and I don't have any hunger pains. I've already lost 3 pounds!
That's Friel's book, right? I was talking to him when he was literally finishing up the last of his book (I was reading over his shoulder when he wasn't looking while he had it up on his computer). I'm curious. Keep up with it for a couple of months and let me know how it goes as your training time increases.

Koffee
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Old 03-27-06, 10:42 AM   #22
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Are you a nurse? You said something about being a nursing supervisor?

I'm not picking on you, but a LOT of what you are saying is incorrect.

I am an N.P. at Baton Rouge General Hospital.

Lots of things influence serum glucose levels.

Blood glucose levels and intraCELLULAR fluids do not fluctuate like-kind. Blood doesnt reduce in "osmolaity" simply based on the amount of intracellular fluid. It has more to do with equalibrium than fluid volume. First thing in the morning, most people are in a state of mild to moderate dehydration. Blood glucose is down because you haven't eaten anything in hours.

If you want to degrease your blood glucose, eat like a diabetic. Triglycerides are fairly easy to reduce as well. If you want to keep your energy up, complex carbs are the best way hands down.

Also, there have been literally HUNDREDS of studies on the effects of chromium picolinate...all of which say there is ZERO evidence that it aids in weight loss. It CAN, however, disrupt sleep patterns, and really screw with your electrolyte balance and blood glucose levels. In short term use, it can increase the effectiveness of insulin, as is speculated. It is not fully understood how or why, or even how MUCH (if any) more effective it makes the insulin itself, but it is widely documented to cause disruption of serum glucose levels...which can obviously be a bad thing for a biker.

Taking supplements without researching them or asking a doctor is not always a good idea. Remember, at one time, Metabo-life was considered a miracle weight-loss pill, too. Then people started dropping dead from strokes and M.I.'s left and right. I actually took Metabo-life. It only took one dose for me to realize that it probably wasn't a good idea to keep using it...with the racing pulse and 'buzzy' feeling...along with the major spike in blood pressure.

I'm just saying that in the end, Chromium Picolinate's effectiveness as a weight-loss supplement is dubious at best...but it DEFINATELY has some long-term use problems that you would probably be wise to avoid.
I was talking about a serum blood glucose level affecting osmotic pressure (it does) and wondered if my weight loss could be related to better control of my blood sugars (measured from glucose intravasculaly) could reduce amount of fluid intraVASCULARLY?

When patients blood glucose levels come down a fluid shift occurs. I have seen this time and again. I was just trying to explain a large weight loss over a short period of time and it looked like my intracellular levels (only measured by serum tests) were remaining good as I had the energy I needed to exercise and was keeping my serum levels within a very tight range of control.

If my cellular levels were down and I had the insulin needed to move the glucose across the cell membrane then I should see a dip in blood glucose with the exersice as cells 'refueled'. I don't take insulin, I don't take oral hyperglycemics and so I must be maintaining a better balance of cellular vs. serum sugars. One way for me to tell this will be an A1C in a few weeks and a look at my triglycerides.

IF my intracellular sugars did not dip because I never really had a low serum glucose then where did the weight loss come from? It would be even better if it were fat.

BTW weight loss in 7 days is 6.5 pounds.

Last edited by obsidian; 03-27-06 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 03-27-06, 11:12 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by koffee brown
That's Friel's book, right? I was talking to him when he was literally finishing up the last of his book (I was reading over his shoulder when he wasn't looking while he had it up on his computer). I'm curious. Keep up with it for a couple of months and let me know how it goes as your training time increases.

Koffee
Yes, it is Friel's book. I have to say that so far (1 week) I'm feeling and doing well. No problems with bonking on rides, plenty of energy, no malaise r/t shifting to ketosis and my sugars are in very tight control.
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Old 03-27-06, 02:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CrashVector
Are you a nurse? You said something about being a nursing supervisor?

I'm not picking on you, but a LOT of what you are saying is incorrect.

I am an N.P. at Baton Rouge General Hospital.


Also, there have been literally HUNDREDS of studies on the effects of chromium picolinate...all of which say there is ZERO evidence that it aids in weight loss. It CAN, however, disrupt sleep patterns, and really screw with your electrolyte balance and blood glucose levels. In short term use, it can increase the effectiveness of insulin, as is speculated. It is not fully understood how or why, or even how MUCH (if any) more effective it makes the insulin itself, but it is widely documented to cause disruption of serum glucose levels...which can obviously be a bad thing for a biker.

Taking supplements without researching them or asking a doctor is not always a good idea. Remember, at one time, Metabo-life was considered a miracle weight-loss pill, too. Then people started dropping dead from strokes and M.I.'s left and right. I actually took Metabo-life. It only took one dose for me to realize that it probably wasn't a good idea to keep using it...with the racing pulse and 'buzzy' feeling...along with the major spike in blood pressure.

I'm just saying that in the end, Chromium Picolinate's effectiveness as a weight-loss supplement is dubious at best...but it DEFINATELY has some long-term use problems that you would probably be wise to avoid.
Well, you know what they say about experts.... You can line them all end to end and they still don't reach a conclusion.

Diabetes Magazine reports:http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...act/46/11/1786

I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. I am glad you are a nurse practitioner and hope you enjoy it and do well at it. I don't think you either understood or read what I said about the weight loss. I was trying to find a way to explain it. I searched blood glucose and osmotic pressure and am not sure where you see a LOT wrong with it. So far as the Chromium is concerned, I'll look into it, however, I have been able to find pro and con articles on the issue and am not going to spend time pasting citations so that you can too. When I decide to quit taking it I will base what I do on more than what you have said.

I have worked with doctors for years. They can sometimes give good advice when they stop and listen to what you have to say, have expertise in the area in question so as not to give canned responses. I have a responsibility for my own health and don't feel I should run to the doctor with every bottle of vitamins for his blessing and so that I can kiss his ring.
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Old 03-27-06, 04:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by obsidian
BTW weight loss in 7 days is 6.5 pounds.

It seems like your spending a lot of time on this. To be honest I can not help but laugh when someone says 7 pounds in 7 days etc. Another question what is your starting weight? Cause if your under 210 or so and losing 6 pounds in a week- I would consider that unhealthy. You should hook up with some one who can monitor your body fat percentage accurately. Then you can have some real number to chew on.
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