Heart vs leg muscles
03-25-06, 05:40 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by CrashVector
Peanut butter is considered a carb, but it also has a small amount of usable protein.
Complex carbs, for a technical definition, are long chains of simple sugars converted to a starchy form by hydrolysis in plants.
They yeild more complex sugar molecules through metabolism, which is stored as glucose in your liver and muscle tissues.
Hydrolysis means "water breaking" the reverse of what you are talking about (a dehydration rxn between sugars)
Muscles store glycogen not glucose.
03-25-06, 06:34 PM
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Potatoes are fine...just dont overdo it.
Peanut butter has more protein than beef ounce for ounce, but is composed mostly of amino acids that your body does not use.
Leafy greens are always good. They're a good source of micronutrients that your body needs, especially if you get the organically grown ones.
My preferred snacks are actually very simple. A raw carrot or two, some orange juice concentrate (don't knock it till you've tried it..its like sherbet without the sugar), or chocolate soymilk (8th continent is my favorite brand) with some lowfat cottage cheese.
dont get me wrong, I'm not without my own faults. I have a serious weak spot for Guiness and Sam Adams....and I like dry red wine a lot.
Peanut butter has more protein than beef ounce for ounce, but is composed mostly of amino acids that your body does not use.
Leafy greens are always good. They're a good source of micronutrients that your body needs, especially if you get the organically grown ones.
My preferred snacks are actually very simple. A raw carrot or two, some orange juice concentrate (don't knock it till you've tried it..its like sherbet without the sugar), or chocolate soymilk (8th continent is my favorite brand) with some lowfat cottage cheese.
dont get me wrong, I'm not without my own faults. I have a serious weak spot for Guiness and Sam Adams....and I like dry red wine a lot.
03-25-06, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic
Peanut butter is mostly fat; the "butter" part is a clue.
Hydrolysis means "water breaking" the reverse of what you are talking about (a dehydration rxn between sugars)
Muscles store glycogen not glucose.
Hydrolysis means "water breaking" the reverse of what you are talking about (a dehydration rxn between sugars)
Muscles store glycogen not glucose.
Technically you are right. I was trying to keep things as simple as possible. Glycogen IS the sugar stored in muscles, which is converted to glucose. I skipped a step for simplicity's sake.
And yeah, I got the plant part backwards. I'm a nurse practitioner...not a botanist..lmao!
03-25-06, 06:52 PM
#29
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> Peanut butter has more protein than beef ounce for ounce, but is composed mostly of amino acids that your body does not use. <
I usually keep some peanut butter around - for crackers or bread - to use when I have nothing else handy or just want to eat something but not much.
> Leafy greens are always good. <
It is one of the few veggies I can actually enjoy somewhat. As mentioned, bean in chili or BBQ beans I like. FRESH corn on the cob is good too - but I only get that when in farm country. But just about everything else I don't like at all.
> some orange juice concentrate (don't knock it till you've tried it..its like sherbet without the sugar) <
Hey, that's a neat idea! I'll have to try it.
> chocolate soymilk <
I tried that once. Tasted terrible to me.
I don't drink at all. I did try some wine at a special event where they had wine tasting. Told them to give me something a "newbie" might like. Don't know what they gave me, but I didn't see anything to like about it. Must be one of those acquired tastes.
I usually keep some peanut butter around - for crackers or bread - to use when I have nothing else handy or just want to eat something but not much.
> Leafy greens are always good. <
It is one of the few veggies I can actually enjoy somewhat. As mentioned, bean in chili or BBQ beans I like. FRESH corn on the cob is good too - but I only get that when in farm country. But just about everything else I don't like at all.
> some orange juice concentrate (don't knock it till you've tried it..its like sherbet without the sugar) <
Hey, that's a neat idea! I'll have to try it.
> chocolate soymilk <
I tried that once. Tasted terrible to me.
I don't drink at all. I did try some wine at a special event where they had wine tasting. Told them to give me something a "newbie" might like. Don't know what they gave me, but I didn't see anything to like about it. Must be one of those acquired tastes.
03-25-06, 07:33 PM
#30
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There are a lot of books about coaching and training. Try reading up a bit. Nutrition is important, but i don't think it's your main problem.
Look up "specificity of training." If you want to ride fast, you have to train to ride fast. It sounds like you have been training to ride far, not fast. Basically, I think you want to follow training programs designed for time trials. That is, riding as fast as possible for a given distance, in your case 11 miles. Really, look into it. I think it'll help!
BTW, as a 50 year old, I strongly admire what you've done. It sounds like one key to your success has been setting goals and sticking to them. Keep it up!
Look up "specificity of training." If you want to ride fast, you have to train to ride fast. It sounds like you have been training to ride far, not fast. Basically, I think you want to follow training programs designed for time trials. That is, riding as fast as possible for a given distance, in your case 11 miles. Really, look into it. I think it'll help!
BTW, as a 50 year old, I strongly admire what you've done. It sounds like one key to your success has been setting goals and sticking to them. Keep it up!
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03-25-06, 08:58 PM
#31
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Yeah, I kinda got caught up in the "ride further this year than last" thing. And now that I'm off to such a strong start this year (2271 miles so far), I don't really want to fail to set another record - though I am backing off in recent weeks. I mean, I was on pace to easily break 10,000 but I figure it will more likely be something like 9,000 (record is 7755).
So, it is kinda hard to go all out for even 11 miles and then continue on for 50!
I've looked at some training things - notably Carmichael's book. But I look at the training situations and I just don't have them. Like it will talk about so many miles on a fairly flat course for some training. Well, on a volcanic island, there isn't much in the way of miles of flat roads! I have to go over 3 miles just to reach a flat stretch. Then there are all the traffic lights. Occasionally I'll manage to miss almost all of them, but it is pretty hard to do something that is supposed to last, say, 5 minutes, but I will usually be interrupted by a traffic light.
I guess the interval thing is the easiest to fit in since they usually don't last more than 45 seconds if I'm going all out. But as soon as you get to slightly reduced efforts lasting 4-5 minutes, there is that problem again.
As for goals, my main one was to average 15 mph for that first 11 miles with an all-out effort. Really didn't think I'd ever do it, but I'd say I always can now with that kind of effort, but over a year ago, even though I wasn't getting better top speeds, I did get to a point where I could do it on any serious effort, not needing to go all-out. Only a fairly casual cruise may be slower. I was pretty happy about that even though I wasn't getting faster - I liked the consistency of staying over 15. Now it isn't so consistent!
I want 15 mph every time, which means my best times need to be better.
I want hills to not bug me so much - which means faster on them (which should also increase my average speed).
And then the longer I can keep those higher speeds is a bonus.
My fastest, long, solo ride was a roundtrip of a 50-52 miles (I forget exactly) and I averaged 15 mph for the whole thing. Surprised the heck out of me. Love to be able to do that regularly!
So, it is kinda hard to go all out for even 11 miles and then continue on for 50!
I've looked at some training things - notably Carmichael's book. But I look at the training situations and I just don't have them. Like it will talk about so many miles on a fairly flat course for some training. Well, on a volcanic island, there isn't much in the way of miles of flat roads! I have to go over 3 miles just to reach a flat stretch. Then there are all the traffic lights. Occasionally I'll manage to miss almost all of them, but it is pretty hard to do something that is supposed to last, say, 5 minutes, but I will usually be interrupted by a traffic light.
I guess the interval thing is the easiest to fit in since they usually don't last more than 45 seconds if I'm going all out. But as soon as you get to slightly reduced efforts lasting 4-5 minutes, there is that problem again.
As for goals, my main one was to average 15 mph for that first 11 miles with an all-out effort. Really didn't think I'd ever do it, but I'd say I always can now with that kind of effort, but over a year ago, even though I wasn't getting better top speeds, I did get to a point where I could do it on any serious effort, not needing to go all-out. Only a fairly casual cruise may be slower. I was pretty happy about that even though I wasn't getting faster - I liked the consistency of staying over 15. Now it isn't so consistent!
I want 15 mph every time, which means my best times need to be better.
I want hills to not bug me so much - which means faster on them (which should also increase my average speed).
And then the longer I can keep those higher speeds is a bonus.
My fastest, long, solo ride was a roundtrip of a 50-52 miles (I forget exactly) and I averaged 15 mph for the whole thing. Surprised the heck out of me. Love to be able to do that regularly!
03-26-06, 02:02 PM
#32
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Okay, I got to ride with the intention to compare to some past numbers. I didn't try to limit my pushing yet - went pretty hard for the first 12.4 miles (the same distance as I have measured for previous HR tests).
The previous ride which matche the closest (16.0 mph average) happened way back on January 4, 2004. Conditions were similar - mild winds of 3-4 mph. This time was from the SW (my average direction is to the SE) and this last time was from the NNW so that other ride had a small advantage in that aspect.
I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are. I have trouble with my headlight interfering with the HR monitor. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Aluminum foil seems to help the problem, but part way into the ride, it blew off. Since there was sufficient light and I also have a blinking headlight that doesn't interfer, I turned the main light off and watch the numbers - didn't change so I guess I wasn't getting interference at that time. Just before the end of the ride I turned it back on and, sure enough, the numbers started increasing - all the way to 181! So I turned it back off. So, the numbers might not be quite right, but I think they are close.
Anyway, here is how the numbers compare:
..........................2004...........Today
Time:..................46:33..........46:29
Above Zone..........21:01..........13:26
Avg HR (above).......150.............161
In zone (119-156)..26:32..........35:20
Avg HR (in).............149.............145
Below Zone.............0:20.............0:0 (unit was definitely getting interence at the start!)
Avg HR (below)........116.............NA
Overall Avg.............155.............149
Highest HR..............172.............174
I wouldn't trust the highest HR because of periodic interference, but based on numbers I saw over time, these shouldn't be too far off.
Leading up to this ride, I did have a couple changes. My previous ride was Friday (51 miles). That day and Sunday, my biggest meal was a salad from Arby's (mostly lettuce and chicken). They are pretty big and I have to work to finish it. Last night I did eat some pasta - plus a brownie and ice cream! This morning I ate one of those small boxes of raisins before washing up and I made it a point to drink more water then too.
I felt stronger - coincidence for all I know. And not only did I keep a faster HR for the first 9 miles (about 155 average instead of 146, when I did drop, I was still above 140 for awhile. Last couple miles went down a lot though.
I didn't drink on the way, though I should have considering I stopped for traffic lights 6 times (I'm not much for trying to deal with the water bottle while moving), but I just didn't think about it.
The ride overall was short because I ran into rain after that and took a bus home after breakfast. Only did 26 miles rather than 50, but that might be good for now, just to make recovery easier.
Bob
The previous ride which matche the closest (16.0 mph average) happened way back on January 4, 2004. Conditions were similar - mild winds of 3-4 mph. This time was from the SW (my average direction is to the SE) and this last time was from the NNW so that other ride had a small advantage in that aspect.
I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are. I have trouble with my headlight interfering with the HR monitor. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Aluminum foil seems to help the problem, but part way into the ride, it blew off. Since there was sufficient light and I also have a blinking headlight that doesn't interfer, I turned the main light off and watch the numbers - didn't change so I guess I wasn't getting interference at that time. Just before the end of the ride I turned it back on and, sure enough, the numbers started increasing - all the way to 181! So I turned it back off. So, the numbers might not be quite right, but I think they are close.
Anyway, here is how the numbers compare:
..........................2004...........Today
Time:..................46:33..........46:29
Above Zone..........21:01..........13:26
Avg HR (above).......150.............161
In zone (119-156)..26:32..........35:20
Avg HR (in).............149.............145
Below Zone.............0:20.............0:0 (unit was definitely getting interence at the start!)
Avg HR (below)........116.............NA
Overall Avg.............155.............149
Highest HR..............172.............174
I wouldn't trust the highest HR because of periodic interference, but based on numbers I saw over time, these shouldn't be too far off.
Leading up to this ride, I did have a couple changes. My previous ride was Friday (51 miles). That day and Sunday, my biggest meal was a salad from Arby's (mostly lettuce and chicken). They are pretty big and I have to work to finish it. Last night I did eat some pasta - plus a brownie and ice cream! This morning I ate one of those small boxes of raisins before washing up and I made it a point to drink more water then too.
I felt stronger - coincidence for all I know. And not only did I keep a faster HR for the first 9 miles (about 155 average instead of 146, when I did drop, I was still above 140 for awhile. Last couple miles went down a lot though.
I didn't drink on the way, though I should have considering I stopped for traffic lights 6 times (I'm not much for trying to deal with the water bottle while moving), but I just didn't think about it.
The ride overall was short because I ran into rain after that and took a bus home after breakfast. Only did 26 miles rather than 50, but that might be good for now, just to make recovery easier.
Bob
03-26-06, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRCF
I want hills to not bug me so much - which means faster on them (which should also increase my average speed).
* to climb well, you need to have a good power to weight ratio. It doesn't necessarily help to be a muscle man, and it definitely doesn't help to lug too much spare fat up any hill. Imagine putting a 15kg bucket of water on your bike; if you're 15kg overweight, that is what you are doing in effect.
* to climb well, you also need endurance as opposed to sprinting ability. A good-sized climb will be many minutes at least, say 20min, or likely more than an hour of effort. Hill climbing is primarily an endurance effort. Hence the need for endurance capability.
03-29-06, 08:13 AM
#34
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I don't think I saw it in here, but here's something that helps me with intervals - since I believe that's probably the one thing most "rec." riders don't do - even though your distances put you a little out of the "rec rider" category and into the "cycling addict" category.
Today, I was to do 50k "speed" work, but the winds were 18-25kts, and a direct crosswind to my intended route along the coast. I almost canned the ride and hit the rollers because I hate that much headwind. But, my riding buddy said he was still riding, so.... I still rode.
One of the best "interval" workouts is to swap pulls with another rider. It motivates you to keep a pace, to keep going at all, and to kinda push yourself out of what your HRM comfort zone would have told you. Today I probably would have ended up spending a lot of time around the 80% MHR mark if I'd had my druthers. Instead, I logged 15 minutes over LTHR in the ride, on top of 40 minutes in the 88%-94% MHR areas (for me, zone 4 of Friel's LTHR zones).
I have a hard time motivating myself to stay in those range of zones, but when we're taking pulls and I know it's my turn, it's a lot easier to get the motivation.
Today, I was to do 50k "speed" work, but the winds were 18-25kts, and a direct crosswind to my intended route along the coast. I almost canned the ride and hit the rollers because I hate that much headwind. But, my riding buddy said he was still riding, so.... I still rode.
One of the best "interval" workouts is to swap pulls with another rider. It motivates you to keep a pace, to keep going at all, and to kinda push yourself out of what your HRM comfort zone would have told you. Today I probably would have ended up spending a lot of time around the 80% MHR mark if I'd had my druthers. Instead, I logged 15 minutes over LTHR in the ride, on top of 40 minutes in the 88%-94% MHR areas (for me, zone 4 of Friel's LTHR zones).
I have a hard time motivating myself to stay in those range of zones, but when we're taking pulls and I know it's my turn, it's a lot easier to get the motivation.
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03-29-06, 09:20 AM
#35
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ok, you want answers ?
be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone
---
I suggest
drop all the number counting.
go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed
the rest of your rides, do what you been doing
---
you will pass out before you die
as an alternative to going bloody all-out ...start doing Hindu squats, or isometric squats
of 1 minute duration, rest 30 secs, do again 5 times...twice a week
cycling faster is about pain. all fast cyclists feel the burn. the pain stays the same,
you just get faster. to me it just sounds like too much number crunching
and not enough raw animal power and pain sessions
you are older. so why not start the day and finish the day with smoothies
like this.
2 bananas
1 scoop whey protein
1 vitamin e 400
1 vitamin c 500
1 aspirin
some coffee grounds (seriously...teaspoon)
1 vitamin a 10,000
1 calcium 400
1 glucosamine 1500
16 oz water
1 flintstones w/iron (or other combo-vitamin-pill)
1 vitamin B-100 complex
chuck all this in a blender, liquify for 3 minutes,
chug it down.
later in the evening, especially after a ride,
make another 2 banana/protein smoothie
just like above, without coffee and only
calcium
B-vitamin complex
glucosamine
1 aspirin
get used to chugging these smoothies and you will
come around and get better guaranteed...if you keep riding.
the glucosamine regimen 2 times a day is pretty key to keeping
your joints feeling fresh so you will desire to pound the pedals harder
day in and day out. the stuff works great. miracle drug really.
be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone
---
I suggest
drop all the number counting.
go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed
the rest of your rides, do what you been doing
---
you will pass out before you die
as an alternative to going bloody all-out ...start doing Hindu squats, or isometric squats
of 1 minute duration, rest 30 secs, do again 5 times...twice a week
cycling faster is about pain. all fast cyclists feel the burn. the pain stays the same,
you just get faster. to me it just sounds like too much number crunching
and not enough raw animal power and pain sessions
you are older. so why not start the day and finish the day with smoothies
like this.
2 bananas
1 scoop whey protein
1 vitamin e 400
1 vitamin c 500
1 aspirin
some coffee grounds (seriously...teaspoon)
1 vitamin a 10,000
1 calcium 400
1 glucosamine 1500
16 oz water
1 flintstones w/iron (or other combo-vitamin-pill)
1 vitamin B-100 complex
chuck all this in a blender, liquify for 3 minutes,
chug it down.
later in the evening, especially after a ride,
make another 2 banana/protein smoothie
just like above, without coffee and only
calcium
B-vitamin complex
glucosamine
1 aspirin
get used to chugging these smoothies and you will
come around and get better guaranteed...if you keep riding.
the glucosamine regimen 2 times a day is pretty key to keeping
your joints feeling fresh so you will desire to pound the pedals harder
day in and day out. the stuff works great. miracle drug really.
03-29-06, 11:02 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by TheRCF
Yeah, I kinda got caught up in the "ride further this year than last" thing. And now that I'm off to such a strong start this year (2271 miles so far)
Time to start intervals in the next week or two.
03-30-06, 12:47 PM
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I posted this on another thread but what the heck, why not post it here. Submitted for your consideration, a different approach. Go slow to go fast. Recommended by none other than Mark Allen, and apparently used by Lance at one point...
the basic idea, if you're too lazy to read all this below: slow the hell down. find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). train at that level, and watch yourself gradually improve. add interval training in there as well. Benefits: less pain, still get the gain, less injuries, less burnout, eventually you'll be going just as fast but at that lower effort level...
the basic idea, if you're too lazy to read all this below: slow the hell down. find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). train at that level, and watch yourself gradually improve. add interval training in there as well. Benefits: less pain, still get the gain, less injuries, less burnout, eventually you'll be going just as fast but at that lower effort level...
https://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460?
Mark Allen on Heart Rate Training
from Mark Allen
Website: https://www.markallenonline.com/Default.asp?partner=dua on January 7, 2002
Working Your Heart
The secret of training smart
How hard do I have to workout? How far do I have to go? I workout 2 hours every other day of the week and I still can't lose those last 10 pounds. Why do I keep getting injured when I try to run? These are all questions and comments people make about their training that seems to have no simple solution.
I want to give you that solution. It's called a heart rate monitor. Whether your goal is to win a race or just live a long healthy life, using a heart rate monitor is the single most valuable tool you can have in your training arsenal of equipment. And using one in the way I am going to describe will not only help you shed those last few pounds, but will enable you to do it without either killing yourself in training or starving yourself at the dinner table.
I came from a swimming background, which in the 70's and 80's when I competed was a sport that lived by the No Pain, No Gain motto. My coach would give us workouts that were designed to push us to our limit every single day. I would go home dead, sleep as much as I could, then come back the next day for another round of punishing interval sets.
It was all I knew. So when I entered the sport of triathlons in the early 1980's, my mentality was to go as hard as I could at some point in every single workout. And to gauge how fast that might have to be, I looked at how fast the best triathletes were running at the end of the short distance races. Guys like Dave Scott, Scott Tinley and Scott Molina were able to hold close to 5 minute miles for their 10ks after swimming and biking!
So that's what I did. Every run, even the slow ones, for at least one mile, I would try to get close to 5 minute pace. And it worked...sort of. I had some good races the first year or two, but I also suffered from minor injuries and was always feeling one run away from being too burned out to want to continue with my training.
Then came the heart rate monitor. A man named Phil Maffetone, who had done a lot of research with the monitors, contacted me. Phil said that I was doing too much anaerobic training, too much speed work, too many high end/high heart rate sessions. I was forcing my body into a chemistry that only burns carbohydrates for fuel by elevating my heart rate so high each time I went out and ran.
So he told me to go to the track, strap on the heart rate monitor, and keep my heart rate below 155 beats per minute. Maffetone told me below this number that my body would be able to take in enough oxygen to burn fat as the main source of fuel for my muscle to move. I was going to develop my aerobic/fat burning system. What I discovered was a shock.
To keep my heart rate below 155 beats/minute, I had to slow my pace down to an 8:15 mile. That's three minutes/mile SLOWER than I had been trying to hit in every single workout I did! My body just couldn't utilize fat for fuel.
So for the next four months I did exclusively aerobic training keeping my heart rate at or below my maximum aerobic heart rate, using the monitor every single workout. And at the end of that period, my pace at the same heart rate of 155 beats/minute had improved by over a minute. And after nearly a year of doing mostly aerobic training, which by the way was much more comfortable and less taxing than the anaerobic style that I was used to, my pace at 155 beats/minute had improved to a blistering 5:20 mile.
That means that I was now able to burn fat for fuel efficiently enough to hold a pace that a year before was redlining my effort at a maximum heart rate of about 190. I had become an aerobic machine! On top of the speed benefit at lower heart rates, I was no longer feeling like I was ready for an injury the next run I went on, and I was feeling fresh after my workouts instead of being totally exhausted from them.
So let's figure out what heart rate will give you this kind of benefit and improvement. There is a formula that will determine your Maximum Aerobic Heart Rate, which is the maximum heart rate you can go and still burn fat as the main source of energy in your muscles. It is the heart rate that will enable you to recover day to day from your training. It's the maximum heart rate that will help you burn those last few pounds of fat. It is the heart that will build the size of your internal engine so that you have more power to give when you do want to maximize your heart rate in a race situation.
Here is the formula:
Take 180
Subtract your age
Now we need to adjust this number based on your current level of fitness. Make the following correction as it applies to you:
# If you do no working out subtract another 10 beats
# If you workout 1-2 times a week subtract 5 beats
# If you workout 3-4 times a week leave the number as it is.
# If you workout 5 or more times as week and have done so for a year or more, then add an additional 5 beats to that number.
If you are about 60 years old or older OR if you are about 20 years old or younger, add an additional 5 beats to the corrected number you now have.
You now have your maximum aerobic heart rate, which again is the maximum heart rate that you can workout at and still burn mostly fat for fuel. Now go out and do ALL of your cardiovascular training at or below this heart rate and see how your pace improves. After just a few weeks you should start to see a dramatic improvement in the speed you can go at these lower heart rates.
Over time, however, you will get the maximum benefit possible from doing just aerobic training. At that point, after several months of seeing you pace get faster at your maximum aerobic heart rate, you will begin to slow down. This is the sign that if you want to continue to improve on your speed, it is time to go back to the high end interval anaerobic training one or two days/week. So you will have to go back to the NO Pain, NO Gain credo once again. But this time, your body will be able to handle it. Keep at the intervals and you will see your pace improve once again for a period. But just like the aerobic training, there is a limit to the benefit you will receive from anaerobic/carbohydrate training. At that point, you will see your speed start to slow down again. And that is the signal that it is time to switch back to a strict diet of aerobic/fat burning training.
Keep your interval sessions to around15-30 minutes of hard high heart rate effort total. This means that if you are going to the track to do intervals do about 5k worth of speed during the entire workout. Less than that and the physiological effect is not as great. More than that and you just can't maintain a high enough effort during the workout to maximize our benefit. You want to push your interval making each one a higher level of intensity and effort than the previous one. If you reach a point where you cannot maintain your form any longer, back off the effort or even call it a day. That is all your body has to give.
This is what I did to keep improving for nearly 15 years as a triathlete. It is also the training the Lance Armstrong's coach put him on to recover from his cancer treatment when they saw that he could not handle the high end training anymore. And although it was contrary to what most cyclists do to prepare for the grueling Tour de France, it was what enabled him to capture the title there for the first time in 1999.
Best of luck!
Mark Allen
6 Time Ironman World Champion
Mark Allen coaching services are available at www.markallenonline.com
Mark Allen on Heart Rate Training
from Mark Allen
Website: https://www.markallenonline.com/Default.asp?partner=dua on January 7, 2002
Working Your Heart
The secret of training smart
How hard do I have to workout? How far do I have to go? I workout 2 hours every other day of the week and I still can't lose those last 10 pounds. Why do I keep getting injured when I try to run? These are all questions and comments people make about their training that seems to have no simple solution.
I want to give you that solution. It's called a heart rate monitor. Whether your goal is to win a race or just live a long healthy life, using a heart rate monitor is the single most valuable tool you can have in your training arsenal of equipment. And using one in the way I am going to describe will not only help you shed those last few pounds, but will enable you to do it without either killing yourself in training or starving yourself at the dinner table.
I came from a swimming background, which in the 70's and 80's when I competed was a sport that lived by the No Pain, No Gain motto. My coach would give us workouts that were designed to push us to our limit every single day. I would go home dead, sleep as much as I could, then come back the next day for another round of punishing interval sets.
It was all I knew. So when I entered the sport of triathlons in the early 1980's, my mentality was to go as hard as I could at some point in every single workout. And to gauge how fast that might have to be, I looked at how fast the best triathletes were running at the end of the short distance races. Guys like Dave Scott, Scott Tinley and Scott Molina were able to hold close to 5 minute miles for their 10ks after swimming and biking!
So that's what I did. Every run, even the slow ones, for at least one mile, I would try to get close to 5 minute pace. And it worked...sort of. I had some good races the first year or two, but I also suffered from minor injuries and was always feeling one run away from being too burned out to want to continue with my training.
Then came the heart rate monitor. A man named Phil Maffetone, who had done a lot of research with the monitors, contacted me. Phil said that I was doing too much anaerobic training, too much speed work, too many high end/high heart rate sessions. I was forcing my body into a chemistry that only burns carbohydrates for fuel by elevating my heart rate so high each time I went out and ran.
So he told me to go to the track, strap on the heart rate monitor, and keep my heart rate below 155 beats per minute. Maffetone told me below this number that my body would be able to take in enough oxygen to burn fat as the main source of fuel for my muscle to move. I was going to develop my aerobic/fat burning system. What I discovered was a shock.
To keep my heart rate below 155 beats/minute, I had to slow my pace down to an 8:15 mile. That's three minutes/mile SLOWER than I had been trying to hit in every single workout I did! My body just couldn't utilize fat for fuel.
So for the next four months I did exclusively aerobic training keeping my heart rate at or below my maximum aerobic heart rate, using the monitor every single workout. And at the end of that period, my pace at the same heart rate of 155 beats/minute had improved by over a minute. And after nearly a year of doing mostly aerobic training, which by the way was much more comfortable and less taxing than the anaerobic style that I was used to, my pace at 155 beats/minute had improved to a blistering 5:20 mile.
That means that I was now able to burn fat for fuel efficiently enough to hold a pace that a year before was redlining my effort at a maximum heart rate of about 190. I had become an aerobic machine! On top of the speed benefit at lower heart rates, I was no longer feeling like I was ready for an injury the next run I went on, and I was feeling fresh after my workouts instead of being totally exhausted from them.
So let's figure out what heart rate will give you this kind of benefit and improvement. There is a formula that will determine your Maximum Aerobic Heart Rate, which is the maximum heart rate you can go and still burn fat as the main source of energy in your muscles. It is the heart rate that will enable you to recover day to day from your training. It's the maximum heart rate that will help you burn those last few pounds of fat. It is the heart that will build the size of your internal engine so that you have more power to give when you do want to maximize your heart rate in a race situation.
Here is the formula:
Take 180
Subtract your age
Now we need to adjust this number based on your current level of fitness. Make the following correction as it applies to you:
# If you do no working out subtract another 10 beats
# If you workout 1-2 times a week subtract 5 beats
# If you workout 3-4 times a week leave the number as it is.
# If you workout 5 or more times as week and have done so for a year or more, then add an additional 5 beats to that number.
If you are about 60 years old or older OR if you are about 20 years old or younger, add an additional 5 beats to the corrected number you now have.
You now have your maximum aerobic heart rate, which again is the maximum heart rate that you can workout at and still burn mostly fat for fuel. Now go out and do ALL of your cardiovascular training at or below this heart rate and see how your pace improves. After just a few weeks you should start to see a dramatic improvement in the speed you can go at these lower heart rates.
Over time, however, you will get the maximum benefit possible from doing just aerobic training. At that point, after several months of seeing you pace get faster at your maximum aerobic heart rate, you will begin to slow down. This is the sign that if you want to continue to improve on your speed, it is time to go back to the high end interval anaerobic training one or two days/week. So you will have to go back to the NO Pain, NO Gain credo once again. But this time, your body will be able to handle it. Keep at the intervals and you will see your pace improve once again for a period. But just like the aerobic training, there is a limit to the benefit you will receive from anaerobic/carbohydrate training. At that point, you will see your speed start to slow down again. And that is the signal that it is time to switch back to a strict diet of aerobic/fat burning training.
Keep your interval sessions to around15-30 minutes of hard high heart rate effort total. This means that if you are going to the track to do intervals do about 5k worth of speed during the entire workout. Less than that and the physiological effect is not as great. More than that and you just can't maintain a high enough effort during the workout to maximize our benefit. You want to push your interval making each one a higher level of intensity and effort than the previous one. If you reach a point where you cannot maintain your form any longer, back off the effort or even call it a day. That is all your body has to give.
This is what I did to keep improving for nearly 15 years as a triathlete. It is also the training the Lance Armstrong's coach put him on to recover from his cancer treatment when they saw that he could not handle the high end training anymore. And although it was contrary to what most cyclists do to prepare for the grueling Tour de France, it was what enabled him to capture the title there for the first time in 1999.
Best of luck!
Mark Allen
6 Time Ironman World Champion
Mark Allen coaching services are available at www.markallenonline.com
03-30-06, 12:57 PM
#38
Da Big Kahuna
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Jur,
The time on my hills varies based on the hill. Lately I've been focusing on the shortest one because I think part of my problem with climbing speed is that just about any time I do a big hill, I just try to keep moving, but don't try to be aggressive. This particular hill is about 0.8 miles, much of it not real steep (though it has a couple steep sections). Anyway, that is short enough where I can manage to push myself more aggressively. Best time so far is 7:13. If I rode up it like I used to, it would probably take around 9 minutes.
NomadVW:
Yeah, I can see how your approach may help. I do something like that sometimes, but not often. Have to work on that again.
I do, rarely, come across another rider who will pass me (it's after I've already ridden around 30 miles so I'm not going very fast). I'll then try to kick up my speed to match him and usually I can - at least for a little while. So the competitive aspects do help motivate me.
The time on my hills varies based on the hill. Lately I've been focusing on the shortest one because I think part of my problem with climbing speed is that just about any time I do a big hill, I just try to keep moving, but don't try to be aggressive. This particular hill is about 0.8 miles, much of it not real steep (though it has a couple steep sections). Anyway, that is short enough where I can manage to push myself more aggressively. Best time so far is 7:13. If I rode up it like I used to, it would probably take around 9 minutes.
NomadVW:
Yeah, I can see how your approach may help. I do something like that sometimes, but not often. Have to work on that again.
I do, rarely, come across another rider who will pass me (it's after I've already ridden around 30 miles so I'm not going very fast). I'll then try to kick up my speed to match him and usually I can - at least for a little while. So the competitive aspects do help motivate me.
03-30-06, 12:58 PM
#39
Da Big Kahuna
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Duplicate - my software didn't show the post was ever sent.
Last edited by TheRCF; 03-30-06 at 02:26 PM.
03-30-06, 02:31 PM
#41
Da Big Kahuna
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Originally Posted by GuitarWizard
Holy crap. As you mentioned elsewhere in your post, easing up for a week or so would be a good idea. Training includes rest, and you won't get faster without it.
Time to start intervals in the next week or two.
Time to start intervals in the next week or two.
03-30-06, 03:57 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by edzo
ok, you want answers ?
be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone
---
I suggest
drop all the number counting.
go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed
the rest of your rides, do what you been doing
---
you will pass out before you die
as an alternative to going bloody all-out ...start doing Hindu squats, or isometric squats
of 1 minute duration, rest 30 secs, do again 5 times...twice a week
cycling faster is about pain. all fast cyclists feel the burn. the pain stays the same,
you just get faster. to me it just sounds like too much number crunching
and not enough raw animal power and pain sessions
you are older. so why not start the day and finish the day with smoothies
like this.
2 bananas
1 scoop whey protein
1 vitamin e 400
1 vitamin c 500
1 aspirin
some coffee grounds (seriously...teaspoon)
1 vitamin a 10,000
1 calcium 400
1 glucosamine 1500
16 oz water
1 flintstones w/iron (or other combo-vitamin-pill)
1 vitamin B-100 complex
chuck all this in a blender, liquify for 3 minutes,
chug it down.
later in the evening, especially after a ride,
make another 2 banana/protein smoothie
just like above, without coffee and only
calcium
B-vitamin complex
glucosamine
1 aspirin
get used to chugging these smoothies and you will
come around and get better guaranteed...if you keep riding.
the glucosamine regimen 2 times a day is pretty key to keeping
your joints feeling fresh so you will desire to pound the pedals harder
day in and day out. the stuff works great. miracle drug really.
be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone
---
I suggest
drop all the number counting.
go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed
the rest of your rides, do what you been doing
---
you will pass out before you die
as an alternative to going bloody all-out ...start doing Hindu squats, or isometric squats
of 1 minute duration, rest 30 secs, do again 5 times...twice a week
cycling faster is about pain. all fast cyclists feel the burn. the pain stays the same,
you just get faster. to me it just sounds like too much number crunching
and not enough raw animal power and pain sessions
you are older. so why not start the day and finish the day with smoothies
like this.
2 bananas
1 scoop whey protein
1 vitamin e 400
1 vitamin c 500
1 aspirin
some coffee grounds (seriously...teaspoon)
1 vitamin a 10,000
1 calcium 400
1 glucosamine 1500
16 oz water
1 flintstones w/iron (or other combo-vitamin-pill)
1 vitamin B-100 complex
chuck all this in a blender, liquify for 3 minutes,
chug it down.
later in the evening, especially after a ride,
make another 2 banana/protein smoothie
just like above, without coffee and only
calcium
B-vitamin complex
glucosamine
1 aspirin
get used to chugging these smoothies and you will
come around and get better guaranteed...if you keep riding.
the glucosamine regimen 2 times a day is pretty key to keeping
your joints feeling fresh so you will desire to pound the pedals harder
day in and day out. the stuff works great. miracle drug really.
Yummy,......coffee .....
Man, I do all that stuff.
Never thought of doing it all at once in a smoothy though.
Why the calcium? (tendinitis probs)
03-30-06, 04:49 PM
#43
Senior Member
Originally Posted by mrfreddy
I posted this on another thread but what the heck, why not post it here. Submitted for your consideration, a different approach. Go slow to go fast. Recommended by none other than Mark Allen, and apparently used by Lance at one point...
the basic idea, if you're too lazy to read all this below: slow the hell down. find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). train at that level, and watch yourself gradually improve. add interval training in there as well. Benefits: less pain, still get the gain, less injuries, less burnout, eventually you'll be going just as fast but at that lower effort level...
the basic idea, if you're too lazy to read all this below: slow the hell down. find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). train at that level, and watch yourself gradually improve. add interval training in there as well. Benefits: less pain, still get the gain, less injuries, less burnout, eventually you'll be going just as fast but at that lower effort level...
03-30-06, 06:32 PM
#44
Da Big Kahuna
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Very very interesting, though I have a couple questions:
> find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). <
What is "OP"?
Then there is is formula for maximum aerobic heartrate:
> Take 180
> Subtract your age
> Now we need to adjust this number based on your current level of fitness. Make the following correction as it applies to you: <
That would be 123
I normally ride every other day, presently about 50 miles (was more for the prior few months until the end of February). So, I'm not sure how the following may apply to me:
> # If you workout 3-4 times a week leave the number as it is. <
That may fit, but then I'm riding a good distance so I wasn't sure.
> # If you workout 5 or more times as week and have done so for a year or more, then add an additional 5 beats to that number. <
That would be more days, but what if my miles is more than normal - should I consider this item as applying to me anyway?
> If you are about 60 years old or older OR if you are about 20 years old or younger, add an additional 5 beats to the corrected number you now have. <
Well, I'm 57 so not 60, but I wonder if this should apply.
> You now have your maximum aerobic heart rate, which again is the maximum heart rate that you can workout at and still burn mostly fat for fuel. <
I gather maximum aerobic heart rate is NOT the same as when people refer to maximum heart rate? The highest I've ever reached is 183.
One reason I'm kinda wondering about how the numbers should apply to me is that when riding home last time, I noted that during the first 10 miles of that part of the ride (this way preceded by 38 miles, first 13 averaging 146 bpm, and then a 90 minutes rest and 30 minutes for breakfast), I was averaging 131 - all pretty flat. I wasn't pushing aggressively but I also wasn't really taking it easy either.
I'm just wondering if the 123 that the above formula results in is appropriate.
> Now go out and do ALL of your cardiovascular training at or below this heart rate and see how your pace improves. <
So I should mostly do that, but also do some intervals (which I interprete as short rides at much higher levels, repeated a few times)?
> find the appropriate hr for you age and fitness level (low 130's for OP, I think?). <
What is "OP"?
Then there is is formula for maximum aerobic heartrate:
> Take 180
> Subtract your age
> Now we need to adjust this number based on your current level of fitness. Make the following correction as it applies to you: <
That would be 123
I normally ride every other day, presently about 50 miles (was more for the prior few months until the end of February). So, I'm not sure how the following may apply to me:
> # If you workout 3-4 times a week leave the number as it is. <
That may fit, but then I'm riding a good distance so I wasn't sure.
> # If you workout 5 or more times as week and have done so for a year or more, then add an additional 5 beats to that number. <
That would be more days, but what if my miles is more than normal - should I consider this item as applying to me anyway?
> If you are about 60 years old or older OR if you are about 20 years old or younger, add an additional 5 beats to the corrected number you now have. <
Well, I'm 57 so not 60, but I wonder if this should apply.
> You now have your maximum aerobic heart rate, which again is the maximum heart rate that you can workout at and still burn mostly fat for fuel. <
I gather maximum aerobic heart rate is NOT the same as when people refer to maximum heart rate? The highest I've ever reached is 183.
One reason I'm kinda wondering about how the numbers should apply to me is that when riding home last time, I noted that during the first 10 miles of that part of the ride (this way preceded by 38 miles, first 13 averaging 146 bpm, and then a 90 minutes rest and 30 minutes for breakfast), I was averaging 131 - all pretty flat. I wasn't pushing aggressively but I also wasn't really taking it easy either.
I'm just wondering if the 123 that the above formula results in is appropriate.
> Now go out and do ALL of your cardiovascular training at or below this heart rate and see how your pace improves. <
So I should mostly do that, but also do some intervals (which I interprete as short rides at much higher levels, repeated a few times)?
03-30-06, 06:37 PM
#45
Da Big Kahuna
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Originally Posted by edzo
ok, you want answers ?
be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone
---
I suggest
drop all the number counting.
go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed
the rest of your rides, do what you been doing
---
be training in the vein-popping, pain and discomfort, red-zone
---
I suggest
drop all the number counting.
go out and ride and pummel yourself way harder than you have been... 2 times a week.
only 1 hour needed
the rest of your rides, do what you been doing
---
But I specifically made note of your smoothie recipe. Thanks.
03-30-06, 08:10 PM
#46
Twincities MN
Both! Work hard, but once a week. Recover well, and do your distance at a low HR. At least that's my take on it. Then peak at the right time, and do it all over again.
Last fall I noticed that my legs gave out before I hit my max HR. I did a lot of intervals, still didn't hit my max HR but my resting HR dropped about 10 BPM.
Last fall I noticed that my legs gave out before I hit my max HR. I did a lot of intervals, still didn't hit my max HR but my resting HR dropped about 10 BPM.
__________________
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03-31-06, 01:16 PM
#47
Da Big Kahuna
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Would like some clarification on this:
Based on an article posted by someone, it talked about doing a lot of training at Maximum Aerobic Heartrate which, according to the formula given, would be 123 beats/minute. It also said this would be the pace where your body learns to burn fat for energy.
The highest heartrate I've ever reached is 183 and I have some notes about heart rate zones which are based on the maximum heartrate (183). These notes show:
110-119 Zone 1 Easy riding, recovery training
119-128 Zone 2 Endurance base training
128-146 Zone 3 Aerobic capacity training
146-156 Zone 4 Lactate threshold training
156+ Zone 5 Maximum aerobic training increasing max VO2
So, it looks like zone three most closely matches this "maximum aerobic HR" since it refers to aerobic capacity, but even the lowest number is above the calculaed number referred to above and the top end is actually pretty close to what I average for the first 9-12 miles of my rides.
I just want to make sure if I try this approach I'm using the right numbers, but I'm not sure which is correct.
Based on an article posted by someone, it talked about doing a lot of training at Maximum Aerobic Heartrate which, according to the formula given, would be 123 beats/minute. It also said this would be the pace where your body learns to burn fat for energy.
The highest heartrate I've ever reached is 183 and I have some notes about heart rate zones which are based on the maximum heartrate (183). These notes show:
110-119 Zone 1 Easy riding, recovery training
119-128 Zone 2 Endurance base training
128-146 Zone 3 Aerobic capacity training
146-156 Zone 4 Lactate threshold training
156+ Zone 5 Maximum aerobic training increasing max VO2
So, it looks like zone three most closely matches this "maximum aerobic HR" since it refers to aerobic capacity, but even the lowest number is above the calculaed number referred to above and the top end is actually pretty close to what I average for the first 9-12 miles of my rides.
I just want to make sure if I try this approach I'm using the right numbers, but I'm not sure which is correct.
03-31-06, 01:44 PM
#48
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None of those figure are really correct in that they are based on %MHR not % of LT. Someone already linked you to the MAPP; but I'm sure you never read it. Read these https://home.hia.no/~stephens/exphys.htm
03-31-06, 01:50 PM
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to get the real low down on this method, buy Phil Maffetone's book, The Maffetone Method . He originated the concept and spells out in detail how to apply it.
btw, OP is "original poster" i.e., you, THeRCF...
my best guess based on what you've said is that you should train at 123 + 5= 128. the plus 5 because you've been training pretty serioulsy for a few years.
as for harder work, I think the book would tell you to add it in when you see yourself no long improving over a number of months - he explains how to check your progress along the way.
btw, OP is "original poster" i.e., you, THeRCF...
my best guess based on what you've said is that you should train at 123 + 5= 128. the plus 5 because you've been training pretty serioulsy for a few years.
as for harder work, I think the book would tell you to add it in when you see yourself no long improving over a number of months - he explains how to check your progress along the way.
03-31-06, 02:15 PM
#50
Da Big Kahuna
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Originally Posted by mrfreddy
to get the real low down on this method, buy Phil Maffetone's book, The Maffetone Method . He originated the concept and spells out in detail how to apply it.
btw, OP is "original poster" i.e., you, THeRCF...
my best guess based on what you've said is that you should train at 123 + 5= 128. the plus 5 because you've been training pretty serioulsy for a few years.
as for harder work, I think the book would tell you to add it in when you see yourself no long improving over a number of months - he explains how to check your progress along the way.
btw, OP is "original poster" i.e., you, THeRCF...
my best guess based on what you've said is that you should train at 123 + 5= 128. the plus 5 because you've been training pretty serioulsy for a few years.
as for harder work, I think the book would tell you to add it in when you see yourself no long improving over a number of months - he explains how to check your progress along the way.