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  1. #1
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    Question for the lifters here!

    Well, they do say that women are fickle!

    One of the instructors at the gym teased me last week by saying that I change my training program every week and would be unable to see progress that way..

    Yet, I have made another change.. or rather, am going to do so..
    For 2 reasons: my weak arms and my goals as a cyclist.

    I have a problem with 4 exercises with which I was using my arms today: front squat (quads), Romanian deadlift (hams), db lunge & step up (gluteus).
    These exercises require me to hold the bar or db with my arms. Because of my weak arms, I cannot load as much weight on the bars, or use heavy enough dumbbells for the strength I have in my legs.
    This means that I can easily do these exercises leg-wise, but suffer in my arms that weren't supposed to work out today (but tomorrow).
    Form suffers as well.
    Furthermore I forgot that I am not a PLer or even a bodybuilder.. I am a CYCLIST!
    PLers need sets with low reps to gain strength. Bodybuilders need sets with intermediate reps to gain muscle mass.
    But cyclists need to be strong with as little muscle mass as possible.. but not just strong, above all they need endurance.
    I have strength and I have endurance, but somehow I don't have both! I can power up a very short hill fairly well, but if it is any higher than a bridge, I'm dead. I can climb a very high mountain at a snail's pace though and still not be exhausted..
    But I can't climb that mountain at a higher pace or power up intermediate/longish hills!

    So, this is a long story to ask whether I should switch from my PL/BB-oriented approach of 4 sets with 20-6-6-6 reps to 4 sets of 15-20ish reps at the highest weight I can bear to do, leading to (almost) failure in the last 1-2 sets.

    Sometimes I think that when I'm done with the last set of an exercise, I might have been able to do another set or 2 for the same exercise.

    E.g. today I did leg press at 110 kg and only managed 16 times as I was still tired from the sumo and front squat (last sets at 8x40 kg for sumo and 6x40 kg for front squat).
    The 2nd, 3rd and 4th set were
    6x140 kg
    6x150 kg
    and 10x160 kg.. I gritted my teeth to get out those 10 but thought I might have been able to get a 170kg set done..

    Last exercise of the day was a standing gluteus machine.. I had already adapted my step up (had done a regular 20-6-6-6 set for db lunge, but had to leave for the spinning lesson, which I managed to do with much more resistance than I use normally (guess I was warmed up).
    I wasn't spent when I came back but continued with the step up.. now with the new strength-endurance approach
    not 20x2x4kg, 6x2x6kg, 6x2x7kg and 6x2x8 kg where my form suffers but
    20x2x3 kg, 15x2x4 kg, 15x2x5 kg and 15x2x6 kg.
    A much higher volume than normal!
    And standing gluteus
    instead of : 20x2x40 kg, 6x2x50 kg, 6x2x55 kg, 6x2x60 kg I did
    20x2x40 kg
    15x2x45 kg
    15x2x50 kg
    20x2x55 kg.. I was quite spent at the last rep..

    But now the interesting fact comes.. I took a sun bath and after a chat cycled home (17 K as I took the long way = 10 miles)..
    I was able to go waaaaay faster than I normally do and actually, though my legs feel like lead now I am feeling quite content..

    This was a major increase in volume, but I finally feel that my legs really got a workout from all of this..

    A good idea for a cyclist?

    I think this is a good thing to do for my legs.. but I am wondering what to do with my upper body.
    I see no reason why I should change my program here, as I don't need to cycle with my upper body, just develop extra strength.. the 20-6-6-6 rep sets still seem appropriate.
    Is this true???

    Lots of questions again...

    PS.. was quite happy that the sumo squat went better again and the front squat didn't give me too many problems either now I did it with a normal bar...

    Ivana
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

  2. #2
    Gravity Is Yer Friend dirtbikedude's Avatar
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    front squat (quads), Romanian deadlift (hams), db lunge & step up (gluteus).
    Front squats ; you can achive the same goal with hack squats.

    Dead lift ; since you do not want to use your hands to much, you can do "Good morrnings". These will how ever put more stress on the lower back and you will have to lower the weight.

    db lunge ; use a Smith machine to do you lunges

    step ups ; dumbells are still the best way to increase the resistance although you can get a weight vest.

    Yes cycling uses more leg strength then upper body strength but you should encorporate upper body into your routine. Just stick with basics that will work your pecs, lats, delts, biceps and triceps.

    Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that your cycling will help with muscle endurance so a power lifting type of routine would be benificial.
    Rotate your programs. When I was training cyclists i would have then start with 6 weeks of high intensity/high rep(25 to 30) exercises that would also increase flexability. Then go to 6 weeks of high intensity/moderate reps(10 to 15). Finaly, they would do 6 weeks of high intensity/low reps(1 to 4).

    I found this to work out the best in the off season.

    Slainte

  3. #3
    Crank Crushing Redneck SamDaBikinMan's Avatar
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    First of all I think you are doing waaaaayyyyy too much stuff.


    Originally posted by fietser_ivana
    Well, they do say that women are fickle!

    One of the instructors at the gym teased me last week by saying that I change my training program every week and would be unable to see progress that way..

    Yet, I have made another change.. or rather, am going to do so..
    For 2 reasons: my weak arms and my goals as a cyclist.

    I have a problem with 4 exercises with which I was using my arms today: front squat (quads), Romanian deadlift (hams), db lunge & step up (gluteus).
    These exercises require me to hold the bar or db with my arms. Because of my weak arms, I cannot load as much weight on the bars, or use heavy enough dumbbells for the strength I have in my legs.
    This means that I can easily do these exercises leg-wise, but suffer in my arms that weren't supposed to work out today (but tomorrow).
    Form suffers as well.
    Furthermore I forgot that I am not a PLer or even a bodybuilder.. I am a CYCLIST!
    PLers need sets with low reps to gain strength. Bodybuilders need sets with intermediate reps to gain muscle mass.
    But cyclists need to be strong with as little muscle mass as possible.. but not just strong, above all they need endurance.
    I have strength and I have endurance, but somehow I don't have both! I can power up a very short hill fairly well, but if it is any higher than a bridge, I'm dead. I can climb a very high mountain at a snail's pace though and still not be exhausted..
    But I can't climb that mountain at a higher pace or power up intermediate/longish hills!

    So, this is a long story to ask whether I should switch from my PL/BB-oriented approach of 4 sets with 20-6-6-6 reps to 4 sets of 15-20ish reps at the highest weight I can bear to do, leading to (almost) failure in the last 1-2 sets.

    Sometimes I think that when I'm done with the last set of an exercise, I might have been able to do another set or 2 for the same exercise.

    E.g. today I did leg press at 110 kg and only managed 16 times as I was still tired from the sumo and front squat (last sets at 8x40 kg for sumo and 6x40 kg for front squat).
    The 2nd, 3rd and 4th set were
    6x140 kg
    6x150 kg
    and 10x160 kg.. I gritted my teeth to get out those 10 but thought I might have been able to get a 170kg set done..

    Last exercise of the day was a standing gluteus machine.. I had already adapted my step up (had done a regular 20-6-6-6 set for db lunge, but had to leave for the spinning lesson, which I managed to do with much more resistance than I use normally (guess I was warmed up).
    I wasn't spent when I came back but continued with the step up.. now with the new strength-endurance approach
    not 20x2x4kg, 6x2x6kg, 6x2x7kg and 6x2x8 kg where my form suffers but
    20x2x3 kg, 15x2x4 kg, 15x2x5 kg and 15x2x6 kg.
    A much higher volume than normal!
    And standing gluteus
    instead of : 20x2x40 kg, 6x2x50 kg, 6x2x55 kg, 6x2x60 kg I did
    20x2x40 kg
    15x2x45 kg
    15x2x50 kg
    20x2x55 kg.. I was quite spent at the last rep..

    But now the interesting fact comes.. I took a sun bath and after a chat cycled home (17 K as I took the long way = 10 miles)..
    I was able to go waaaaay faster than I normally do and actually, though my legs feel like lead now I am feeling quite content..

    This was a major increase in volume, but I finally feel that my legs really got a workout from all of this..

    A good idea for a cyclist?

    I think this is a good thing to do for my legs.. but I am wondering what to do with my upper body.
    I see no reason why I should change my program here, as I don't need to cycle with my upper body, just develop extra strength.. the 20-6-6-6 rep sets still seem appropriate.
    Is this true???

    Lots of questions again...

    PS.. was quite happy that the sumo squat went better again and the front squat didn't give me too many problems either now I did it with a normal bar...

    Ivana

    I will try to help, do you remember the basic leg program from your 1RM leg press post? Well I will try to offer something a little different.

    First, the trainer is correct in a sense. You need to adopt a basic pair of movements for your lower body and stick to them. You will see gains this way and know you are progressing.

    To be perfectly honest with you I rarely ever do more than three movements for any particular body part. If worked hard it will be enough to exhaust your muscles.

    I recommend this approach:

    Choose one combination movement for the quads, ie Squats, Leg press, Hack slide, Smith machine squats, Machine squats.

    Any of these excersizes if done properly will hit every part of the quads and pound them into oblivion. They should also hit the hams and glutes as well.

    Combination movements use many muscles in concert. Cycling does the same.

    From this base movement add some isolation moves for anything you consider a weak area or an area where you want to gain more power.

    Isolation movements are such as>>>>

    For Quads..... Leg extensions, lunges, Front squats, Hack squats with the buttocks off the pad.

    For glutes.....Cable kickbacks, Smith machine squats with feet out in front and go deep.

    For hamstrings.....Leg curls, Stiff leg deadlifts.

    I would do higher rep work since you are specifically training to benefit cycling. Do just a few heavy low rep sets on your combination movement then just start hammering reps.

    If you push yourself you will find you can get a thorough workout from much fewer sets than what you are doing.

    A basic outline would look like this with excersizes thrown in for example.

    Warm up on cardio equipment....

    Combination movement:
    Squats for 6 sets of 10,8,8,15,15,15

    Specific movements:
    Leg curls for 4 sets of 12,10,20,20
    Leg extensions for 4 sets of 10,8,20,20
    Leg press with feet at same width as bike pedals and low on the platform for 5 sets of 15 or more reps each set.

    The last rep or two on every set should be a challenge to push thru.....

    This gives you a total number of sets of 19 which is about what I am currently doing each session of quads. When I leave the gym I am walking funny due to the hard work.


    Fell free to e-mail me directly to discuss any of this at csjeeper@bellsouth.net.

  4. #4
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    Only you know what your goals are and it sounds like you have a good grasp of how the various exercises and rep ranges can affect those goals.Having said that it sounds like you want to maximize strength and endurance so I suggest you consider a pyramid type routine where you start an exercise with low weight and high reps and then pyramid up in weight and down in reps in the later sets to give you some strength and endurance benefits.For example you might do a 15/12/10/8 rep sceme or a 12/10/8/6 sceme and as you get more experienced focus a little more on the ranges that seem most effective for you.I myself tend to train more instinctively varying rep ranges and exercises frequently when they get stale and I never go into a workout with a specific list of exercises or rep ranges only the muscle group to be worked that day and the fact it will probably be done in pyramid fashion and these parameters rarely change. I do have a core group of exercises that tend to be effective for me and tend to start in the 10-12 range and pyramid down to 4-6 for most exercises but you need to find what works best for you.By the way it is not unusual to experience better results with high reps for legs as its such a large muscle group it takes a lot of volume to see results.FWIW I am in the process of changing my overall routine for the second time ever from a one bodypart/day5 way split to a push/pull routine that I actually started on which is a three way split with chest/back one day then shoulders/arms another and on the third legs and involves a lot of supersets and trisets often for opposing muscle groups but can be adapted with a lot of variety to suit any objective which is how I tend to train. Due to the amount of cycling I have been doing the 5 way split was taking to many days to get through with too many extra rest days being needed and was getting kind of stale.
    Last edited by RWTD; 12-16-02 at 10:02 PM.

  5. #5
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    Thanks again for the helpful answers..

    That 250 kg 1RM leg press had obviously been a glitch, but now 180-200 kg (done properly) could be very well feasible.

    I am not quite sure which routine seems best:
    either 'cycle' routines from 20-25 to 12-15 to 1-4 in 3 months time or do all of them in the same kind of workout .
    My body-for-life routine (only changed a few weeks ago) was like 12-10-8-6-12 with increasing weights and then the last 12rep set would mostly be done with the 8rep weight.

    I feel a bit torn between my Powerlifting buddies who go really low (for strength) and my cycling buddies who don't lift at all or only do high reps..

    So doing both seems like a good idea..

    I had been planning to adopt the routine as suggested here about late January next year:
    A 3-day split of
    Mon legs heavy - chest medium - back light
    Wed legs light - chest heavy - back medium
    Fri legs medium - chest light - back heavy.

    I might do those 25 reps repeats on the light day and the 1-4 reps on the heavy day and a 8-12 reps range on the medium day?
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

  6. #6
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by fietser_ivana
    Thanks again for the helpful answers..

    That 250 kg 1RM leg press had obviously been a glitch, but now 180-200 kg (done properly) could be very well feasible.

    I am not quite sure which routine seems best:
    either 'cycle' routines from 20-25 to 12-15 to 1-4 in 3 months time or do all of them in the same kind of workout .
    My body-for-life routine (only changed a few weeks ago) was like 12-10-8-6-12 with increasing weights and then the last 12rep set would mostly be done with the 8rep weight.

    I feel a bit torn between my Powerlifting buddies who go really low (for strength) and my cycling buddies who don't lift at all or only do high reps..

    So doing both seems like a good idea..

    I had been planning to adopt the routine as suggested here about late January next year:
    A 3-day split of
    Mon legs heavy - chest medium - back light
    Wed legs light - chest heavy - back medium
    Fri legs medium - chest light - back heavy.

    I might do those 25 reps repeats on the light day and the 1-4 reps on the heavy day and a 8-12 reps range on the medium day?
    You are misunderstanding the point of a light and medium day. By increasing the reps you are simply lightening up the weight while keeping the intensity (you will still fail but much later). A light day is just that. Light. Take 40% of your 1rm and do it 12 times. No fail, no exhaustion, almost seems useless but isn't. In reality it is the day to get the body part moving while it is as still as hell and not working it hard at all.

    Medium is the half way point. No fail but no super easy either.

    As for the rest of it. I look at it like this. I DON'T use weights to develop endurance. If I want endurance I do cardio. I use weight to build anaerobic endurance (an oxymoron but it does work) and raw power. Keep that in mind.

    I don't know who posted above that lunges were an isolation movement. They AREN'T. They isolate the quad, ham, glute hip flexor and even the calf. These can be as much as power movement as a squat.

    You seriously have to decide you goals. If you want to be a great cyclist you need to maximize you lower body strenght to overall body weight. This means doing the opposite of those tank top body builders we all enjoy laughing at. If you want overall fitness, strength and athletic ability then mix up the routine with a 3 routine split. Similar to what I had posted before.

    Also don't overtrain. You are keen that is obvious but don't kill yourself. You body can only do so much at once. Think in years and not months. (I am serious here. If you give yourself 3 months to reach major goals you may have already lost). Be realistic.

    Cheers.

  7. #7
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    The most important thing is to get in the gym and lift and don't let indecision on a routine bog you down and miss workouts as anything is better than nothing.I guess it depends on how detail oriented you are as to whether you cycle routines or combine them into each workout by pyramiding where by the way you can still cycle the ranges and other factors if you want.I myself like the flexibity of going with something as long as it works and then changing when it starts getting stale not on a predetermined schedule but you sound as if you may at least in getting started need a set schedule .My best advice would be to experiment and then go and stick with what works for as long as it does.

  8. #8
    Senior Member DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Hi Ivana.

    How is the Plantar Fasciitis? Any relief yet?

    Ivana, you are highly analytical, and are constantly evaluating and reevaluating. This is great, but in the long run I think it may cause more problems than may be helpful.

    It is my belief that any strength exercise is good, and that particularly increasing body strength is a very, very long-range goal, not something you mess with every few weeks or even months. I occasionally make a routine change simply to "shock" my muscles by varying my routine.

    The basic compound exercises - Bench Press, Squat, Deadlift - will get you a very long way - if done consistently and regularly over the years. There are only so many ways you can manipulate how you "attack" your muscles.

    I personally build strength in the weight room and endurance on the bike.

    Keep it simple, set a good routine, and just go for it.

    IN addition to the 3 basic exercises above, I add in the following at various times:

    incline bench press (this is fairly new for me, and I really llike them)
    dips
    various rows
    lateral raises
    pull ups
    weighted crunches
    a few flys
    and occasionally some leg curls and bicep curls.

    I guess I like the KISS approach (Keep it Simple Stupid), and once I have chosen my approach, I keep pretty consistent over the years.

    I don't fret and fuss much about it - just keep doing it regularly, with variations in intensity as my old body tells me. I have learned to always listen to my body. Biggest mistake for me is to not obey what it tells me.

    I generally go low reps high weights - but that is what I enjoy.

    So, I do it for enjoyment, fitness, strength.

    But, each of us must find what we enjoy and like. My forte is simplicity. I think, that in the long run, if you don't enjoy it, you will not keep it up. I have been at it rather consistently for about 10 years now. I really get "down" when I have to miss for any period of time. Gets to be a habit.
    Last edited by DnvrFox; 12-17-02 at 07:07 AM.

  9. #9
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    DenverFox you are right about being too analytical.
    Messed around again today though. Tried the following for back-shoulders-triceps.
    Instead of 12-10-8-6-12 (BFL) which I changed to 20-6-6-6 I used the following 15-10-8-6 (and if the 6 felt easy a final set of 4).
    This is very much like BFL, which I mostly changed as the routine (Mon upper body-Wed lower b. - Fri upper - Mon lower - Wed upper - Fri lower body) interfered with the 2 spinning lessons on Wed & Sat. Esp. when I had LB on Friday..
    I liked the more BFL-like routine quite well.. it didn't give me as many 'surprises' in being able to do more reps in the final set.

    Oh, and substituting the Romanian DL for a goodmorning is not a good idea.. I did the good morning this morning for my back.

    The main problem I had with exercises where I have to hold the bar or dbs in my hands.. my legs are simply too strong for my arms.
    After all, I've not dared to do much about my upper body because of RSI.. I don't think I have been without pain in neck, shoulders and wrist since 1994. I must say that the daily glucosamine as well as flax seed oil works very well too.

    My plantar fasciatis is much better now.. that is, I don't walk much at all.. if I would, I probably would get symptoms again.

    Finally, i am too lazy now to look it up, but what are super sets?

    Ivana.. but isn't it OK to shock the system regularly?

    Well, in case I do take up Maelstrom's approach, what about doing high reps (20-25) for 2 weeks, low reps (3-6) for 2 weeks and medium reps (8-12) for 2 weeks (like the suggested routine but now for reps?)
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

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    Ivana Reading over the posts in this thread again and the leg press thread having missed most of the later the first time (and I admit I skim the parts about routine details)I am not so sure your problem is leg strength as you seem to indicate good overall leg strength and according to Maelstrom decent quad/ham balance(by the way hams are extremely important in climbing which seems a priority to you). I suspect more critical to improving your climbing strength and endurance may be bringing down your overall body mass in the form of weight loss.Thus you probably should be prioritizing fat loss through plenty of aerobics ,a fine tuned diet(which it sounds like you are on top of)and maybe even tilting the weight training that way with a faster pace and supersets,trisets or even circuit training.That is to say don't stop strength training particularly if you enjoy it but prioritze the fat loss . I would like to see if any of the former personal trainers agree with this assessment and if they do what they recomend for fat loss priority as I have never trained myself for this priority and coming up with a specific detailed routine is not one of my strengths anyway. P.S. I just saw your post to Denver and if your starting the 15/10/8/6/4 that sounds good and you should stick with it awhile but supers are where you do two exercises usu for opposing muscle groups (such as bis/tris)alternating back to back with no rest for each set(ie one set curl then one set tri extension all with no rest is one superset then you do 3 or four supersets with as little rest as possble between the sets).Trisets and compound sets are where respectively you do three or more exercises usu of the same muscle group in a row as one set.And finally a circuit is where you go through one exercise for each of the muscle groups all in a row as one circuit. Also if your wrists/arms give out on compound exercises gloves with wrist wraps and lifting straps are effective to compensate for this.Also if you shock the body regularly you are not shocking it because you are not changing something it is use to.
    Last edited by RWTD; 12-17-02 at 09:32 AM.

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    Thanks RWTD for your thoughtful reply.

    Strength training is a very useful tool for losing weight, even more so than cardio training.
    But if you do too much cardio, you have to be careful not to overtrain. Like 2 weeks ago, I added too many new things to my routine.. it was too much, so I backed down a bit. The work load had become too large and there was a too big of a gap between caloric need and intake, which slows down metabolism.. I notice that particularly well now at my hands.. when they feel cold, it has slowed down.. when warm it is either very warm or I've eaten something recently.

    15-10-8-6-(4) feels very good to me...
    The superset approach is similar to Body-for-Life. But there you pick 2 exercises with the first one at 12-10-8-6-12 reps and immediately afterwards you do the second one, with just 1 set.
    i wanted to give more attention to my upper body but still put emphasis on my lower body so I'm doing legs on Monday (quads-hams-gluteus), back-shoulders-triceps on Tuesday, calves & abs on Wednesday, chest-biceps-wrist on Friday and finally hips-calves & abs on Sat..
    With the CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet) I was supposed to do a depletion workout on Saturday, but I felt I wasn't rested enough on Monday when I did this...and after all, with the targeted ketogenic diet, I do mini-carbups around workouts & spinning.
    Probably I will do a depletion workout by using the hometrainer.

    Cheers

    Ivana
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

  12. #12
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    "they need endurance.
    I have strength and I have endurance, but somehow I don't have both! I can power up a very short
    hill fairly well, but if it is any higher than a bridge, I'm dead. I can climb a very high mountain at
    a snail's pace though and still not be exhausted.."

    Hi,
    I don't really see this as a strength issue. Certainly extra strength will help, but let's look at what you asked for. You want to maintain a higher rate of output. Sounds to me like you want more output while staying under a level of effort
    you can't sustain. Sounds like a change in the aerobic training may be as important as the strength training. I can offer a couple of suggestions. The first is to use winter for base building. The second possibility is to get The Heart Rate Monitor Book for Outdoor and Indoor Cyclists by Sally Edwards and Sally Reed by velo Press. There is also a logbook that should be gotten with the book. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

    The third suggestion is a trainer of some sort.I am beginning to think it would worth the $$ if I could get some effective coaching. Believe me, I am no expert on this stuff. I have an excellent base building program, and Sally's book...and I am trying to figure out how to combine them (or ditch one in favor of the other).
    Last year, I started with the regime in the book, but wound up doing something like my base building
    program. It worked quite well; I'm not complaining. But I feel I could improve on it.
    If you Aare like me, you have a tendency to overtrain. I would suggest limiting the weights to 2 days a week. One for arms/abs and then one for legs and back. Keep a couple days between, and use the day after the leg workout for easy aerobic work (say,a long easy ride) to help heal the legs.
    You know anybody who has tried Carmicheal training Sysytems?

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    I don't know Carmichael training systems, but I know someone who was using some of his principles..

    Actually, believe it or not.. I hate training.. or rather I've had a life-long antipatht with sports played in school. Can't run (foot prob), can't do gymnastics (balance prob) and can't do ball games (balance/distance judgment) .

    I even don't like cycling for training's sake.. I only will cycle for 3 purposes: socially (weekend rides), touristically (holidays) and functionally . I need to use my bike for getting my ass from point A to B as I don't have a car on purpose . Not just to save money, but to force myself to keep riding that bike, as riding a car or motor bike would have been so much easier.
    A few years ago I thought I'd use my bike to go anywhere but sheer frustration with dutch bike paths made me change my mind.. you either are ripe for a straight jacket in a psychological hospital or for a heart attack because of sheer frustration about the sign posting and the poor quality & design of the bloody paths.. so I don't go long distances anymore unless the route is very well described or signposted.

    But spinning is great fun, and I kinda fell in love with lifting too..
    As with everything I discover that seems like great fun, I tend to overdo things a bit.. . Coupled with an analytic (&scientific) mind, I go overboard .

    I have a few books (Effective Cycling from Forester, and 2 books on long-distance cycling from a British guy (Simon Doughty) as well as one from Burke & Pavelka. A 4th one is in Dutch, but is geared towards road racers...
    One problem: I tend to forget all the good advice... I should go and reread some of the advice I was given here on that 250 kg leg press topic!!!
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

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    Originally posted by RWTD
    Also if your wrists/arms give out on compound exercises gloves with wrist wraps and lifting straps are effective to compensate for this.
    I agree. I use wrist straps for a couple of exercises. Mainly, romanian deadlifts and barbell shrugs. There is no way I could do 285lb shrugs without the straps.

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    285 lb shrugs???

    Man, I thought I was strong this morning when I finished with 7 reps of 45 kg (100 lbs).. which is also the finishing weight of my front press.. here you see the exact problem!
    E.g. I had my PR this morning with hold your breath on a 10 kg db (2 of them though) with 4 reps.. (6 reps with 9 kg!).

    Weren't cyclists supposed to have no or very little upper body strength? I don't agree, as I finally am able to hold myself up better. I used to need to lie down on aerobars in order to prevent shoulder pain..
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

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    Yes if you stick with that routine you should achieve any weight loss goals.Just remember as others have said its a long term journey really a lifestyle so if results don't come as fast as you initially hope stick with it and they will over time.The other techniques I mentioned as Denver said are really better for ocassionally shocking the body though I regularly do supers for arms but modified where I add a normal rest between each alternating exercise.Oh well I think your on the right track now just again as Denver said stick with the basics for now and you can get fancy later after this routine starts getting old.Also I don't think upper body strength is as much of a problem as extra mass that isn't strong functionally from a cycling standpoint.
    Last edited by RWTD; 12-17-02 at 10:35 AM.

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    A small update.. today I had a small workout.. just calves & abs.
    I applied my latest upper body series with great results.
    The first set no longer tired me... I stuck to 15 reps.

    So it is 15-10-8-6-4 now. However, when I feel that a set is going particularly easy I up the reps. Eg. when it was supposed to be 8 reps but I can make 10, I do 10 and try to make 8 reps with the next set with more weight (can be as little as 1 kg and as much as 5-10kg).
    I was absolutely flabbergasted with the standing calf raise. A couple of months ago doing 3 sets of 12 reps with 25 kg was a struggle (OK, I was 10 kg heavier then).
    Today I did set after set after set.
    Plan: 15x35, 10x40, 8x45, 6x50 kg, 4x55 kg.
    Reality: 15x35, 10x40, 10x45, 8x50, 6x55, 8x60 kg.
    There was a long break between 55 and 60 as I chatted too long and someone else took the machine.. but I went back to see how far I'd come with 60 kg.

    I did them a bit later than normally as I overslept and missed the spinning class... and was also too sore in my legs (Monday workout) for doing that class. Instead I did a 12 min speed work session later at lowest resistance on a home trainer (80-95-100-105-110-115-85-100-105-110-110-125 to max; got to 155 rpm for 3 sec)



    Ivana feeling quite pleased today
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

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    Actually calves and abs and forearms as well being endurance type muscles usu do best on higher reps so I suggest you do as many sets at 15-20 reps for them as possible before pyrimiding down and then if you do lower reps really load on the weight for calves particularly as you will be surprised how much they can take.Don't veiw these rep ranges as fixed because each exercise and particularly muscle group may have a different ideal range as you generally want to go lower reps on compound exercises and fast twitch(speed)muscles and higher reps on isolation exercises and slow twitch(endurance )muscles.Hope this helps.I am doing really well on my new routine as well I just hope I don't overdo it as I tend to do when things are going well.

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    Hope this helps.I am doing really well on my new routine as well I just hope I don't overdo it as I tend to do when things are going well.

    Well, do we recognize this or NOT!

    I am also a member of the Fly-lady help-list to help me clean out my pig-sty and she refers to the 'crash & burn mentality of perfectionists' and encourages us to take 'baby steps' and building up routines ... (why am I thinking of DenverFox now???)
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

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    Yes but i've done anything but take baby steps .I've always done long workouts 1 1/2-2 hrs. the cardinal sin these days I think but now I'm going from each bodypart once a week to twice and already I've done everything once in 3 days.I'm on a roll but will have to start taking it easy when burnout signs start appearing but then I guess some cycling will be in order lol.

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    Yes, since I got off the BFL (Body-for-Life) approach (try to cram the entire workout into 55 mins) I started wasting my time too much, well not waste time (ask questions, chat with people, drink something, go to bathroom) and use about 1,5-2 hours as well.

    I heard hormone levels go up (or down?) after 45 mins and you end up in a too catabolic state... (I read the details but forgot everything again; had to do with growth hormone and cortisol levels???)

    I am trying to come up with a routine for Feb-June when cycling season will start again ..

    In Feb I'll try to be in California & Oregon to train for 3-4 weeks and from March on almost every single weekend will be spent cycling. At first just on Sat, but soon back to back as well unless I do a distance over 200 km on Saturday.. I plan to hammer on Saturday on a longish distance and recover using a high rpm on a smallish (up to 100K) distance for Sunday (also want to visit another part of my tiny country then..).
    And of course there's that 3 week trip to Ukraine & Russia where I won't be able to do weight training either.. but slog from 1 place to another playing the tourist, sleeping in tents or people's homes & probably either be hungry all the time or eat crappy food... Russia & Ukraine is not known for their wonderful cuisine, only for the warmheartedness of its' people and prettyness of the females, unfortunately I'm a female too.

    Apart from those difficulties/challenges, I thought to drop legs (or just do light-medium exercises) and focus on upper body with 1 weekly spinning lesson & one weekly speed work lesson. Days still have to be decided upon. Mon rest, Tues-Wed-Thurs exercise and Friday rest seems feasible, but is it logical?
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

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    To tell you the truth I don't go by set days I just go until I feel I need a day off .However that schedule looks alright but I'd leave open the option to move one up or back if three days in a row is too tiresome.I usually hit legs with lower reps and heavier weight and less sets and overall volume when cycling since the cycling already gives then a lot of high reps with low resistence.PS cortisol is the catabolic hormone and when I start feeling weak and torn down that is when I stop because cortisol has become excessive at that point.Generally heavy weights and more rest between sets produces more testosterone while more reps and faster pace produces more growth hormone.Gh is also produced while resting or sleeping apart from exercise .Test stimulates muscle growth but is generally in short supply in females while GH stimulates muscle growth and fat loss which is why I thought a faster paced routine might be helpful for you since you want to maximize GH for optimal weight loss.
    Last edited by RWTD; 12-18-02 at 01:50 PM.

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    Ah, now I see why cardio decreases sex drive and weight training increases it (it's all testosterone).. apparently I had a serious deficiency here!

    Am quite surprised by the 'side-effects' of weight training!

    Ivana
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

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    FIVE PRs today!

    Today I did only 5 exercises and these were all basic exercises which I normally do on 2 days (Mon-Tues). I improved on all 5 of them!

    The exercises were: sumo squat, stiff-legged DL, chin-up, shrug and dip.

    When I also count the 4 kg screws I have almost squatted my body weight while this is just the 3rd time (3 weeks) I have squatted. I might have been able to be more successful if I hadn't done so many sets already
    My current approach is to do a 15-10-8-6-4 pyramid and if I can make 10 reps rather than 8, I should do 8 reps in the next set etc. This sometimes makes for a large amt of sets if there's a large discrepancy between plan and practice.
    Planned: 15x25,10x30,8x35,6x40,4x45 kg (actually plus 4 kg) so 45 kg = 49 kg (nearly 110 lbs).
    Did: 15x25,10x30,10x35,8x40,8x45,6x5,6x55,5x60 and 4x65 kg plus those 4 kg screws. So I am only 72/73 - 65-4 = 3-4 kg away from my own BW! I am quite excited about that.. previous week I only got to 49 kg. Aiming for 2x BW should be feasible in how many weeks???

    Stiff-legged DL: 15x25,10x30,8x35,6x40,6x45,5x50,3x55 kg (plus 4kg). I couldn't go much further for lack of arm-strength, should be using straps soon.

    Assisted chin-up: 15x23 kg, 10x28 kg, 8x33 kg, 6x38 kg, 5x43 kg, 3x48 kg. It should be feasible within a few weeks to do it unassisted and pull myself up...

    Shrug: 15x30,10x35,10x40,8x45,6x50,6x55 kg (could have gone further, but didn't want to get an injury, bad shulder). Am using a lever thingy where guys train their oblique chest muscles on..

    Assisted dip was a lot more difficult as I had pre-exhausted myself already.
    Skipped the warmup set of 15x23, barely made it to 10x28 kg.. skipped the rest of the 33 kg set after 2 reps, waited a bit and then got to 6x38 kg, waited again and forced out 4 reps at 43 kg and finally squeezed out 4x48 kg..

    I had to take it really slow going back home on the bike (17 K/10 mi) and felt a bit light-headed so I stopped a few times to drink from my whey drink (I only had 1 bottle with me today, normally I take 2). I even managed to do some keto X-mas shopping as I knew I'd feel not so OK later on and bought quark, smoked salmon, smoked eel, veggies, fresh herbs, cottage cheese and cream..

    I will allow myself to eat anabolically at X-mas time, probably I'll stick to the keto-diet though, but will be a bit more lenient about it..

    Current best sets:
    quadriceps: sumo squat 4x69 kg (ma 23-12, incl. 4 kg schroeven)
    quadriceps: leg press 6x170 kg (ma 16-12, 90 deg, 250 kg 1RM shallower angle)
    hamstring: stiff-legged dl 3x59 kg (ma 23-12, incl. 4 kg schroeven)
    gluteus: standing gluteus 20x55 kg (ma 16-12)
    back: chin 3x48 kg (ma 23-12)
    trapezius: shrug 6x55 kg (ma 23-12)
    triceps: dip 4x53 kg (ma 23-12)
    gastrocnemius, calves: standing calf raise 6x70 kg (za 14-12)
    chest: bench press 3x32,5 kg (2e keer ooit, vr 13-12)
    biceps: db curl 4x 10(x2) kg (vr 13-12)
    hips: hip adduction 4x50 kg (za 14-12)

    Yay!
    vehicular cyclist : commuter - tourist - randonneur

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    Good to hear you are sticking with the basic/compound exercises.I agree with the cautious approach to increasing weights as too rapid an increase can lead to injuries .As you get the techniques down and start building strength you should then be able to pyramid up in fewer sets if desired and your PR's should continue to improve as well.On the SL deadlift keep in mind it can be done strictly with lower weight and less arm involvement or what I call a Romanian version where you don't go as low but use heavier weight and put more stress on arms. If you don't use a wriststrap I suggest you do the former where you stand on a block and emphasize a full stretch as low as you can go (to ankle level)with only a slight bend in knees as this can be done for higher reps and lower weights quite effectively.With Romanian(which is what I do) I still use a block but only extend to knee/shin area and emphasis pulling the glutes out and in in an exagerated motion(it is hard to get form downbut effective when you do)and use heavy weight for low reps.

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