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Old 08-15-06, 02:10 PM   #1
BasicJim
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Stupid HRM!!

So, I am trying to get more structured in my training. I ride a good amount and have a couple years riding, but I want to go to the 'next level.'

I am looking at training plans and they have me spending some days entirely in Zone 1 (60-65% Max HR) or Zone 2 (65-75% max HR). BORING!!!!

I admit I am not in the best of shape. I have a cholesterol issue and my RHR is about 70. My MHR is 190. Spending an hour at 123 BPM means I would be soft-pedaling most of my ride.

What is the issue if I spend that time at 160 bpm ( 84% MHR Zone 4)? I can stay in Zone 4 for over 3 hours and still be strong the next day. My Avg HR on my normal rides to this point is 165 and I am riding 6 days a week, each ride for more than an hour and over 3 hours on Saturday. Should I just adjust the recommended training program to go up a zone or two?

I know I need recovery time, but come on! Two days a week? I have been going for MONTHS riding in zone 4!

TIA!!

Jim
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Old 08-15-06, 02:24 PM   #2
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Do the training plans cover how you should calculate your HR percentages? Using the Karvonen method,

[(MHR-RHR) * %] + RHR = %HR

your 60% should be 142. I'd try that and see how it works for you.
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Old 08-15-06, 11:15 PM   #3
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You can either do a training program or you don't. Once you start adjusting it you are no longer doing that program you are doing your own thing.
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Old 08-16-06, 11:08 AM   #4
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My neuro surgeon has limited my exertion to 70% MHR (150BPM) for the next 8 months as I recover from brain surgery- I would check your calculations as your numbers seem a little low.

I have been amazed how much stronger I have become over the last month riding at 65-70%MHR as my body becomes more efficient at various aspects of riding. As I am limited by HR I am riding longer instead of harder.
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Old 08-16-06, 01:16 PM   #5
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Jim,

You've been riding for months at zone 4 and you aren't in great shape.

So, your current approach isn't working, and you're looking at training programs that do things differently. Which you don't like.

But, your current approach isn't working. So why do you think that a more organized approach that is still like your current approach would work?

I think that the alternate approaches can have a big benefit for you if you follow it. But if you aren't bought in to trying something different, why bother?

*****


I did a review of Carmichael's approach a while back that you might find interesting...

http://blogs.msdn.com/ericgu/archive...05/657053.aspx
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Old 08-16-06, 03:11 PM   #6
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two days a week doing an aerobic ride sounds about right. remember, the other days you'll be doing stuff that's much much harder depending on the time of year. when you're about to puke from doing max effort intervals believe me you'll be looking forward to a nice recovery ride.
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Old 08-16-06, 07:00 PM   #7
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Eric, I like your review of the web based Carmichael plan. There is another post on this issue of how to use the HR and adjust training to improve fitness where I have also posted some commnets. Like Jim I have been riding hard (for me) and assuming that the hard rides would equal better fitness, but I have clearly hit a plateau and something has to change; hence the HR and now an effort to adjust the training.

One item of real interest is the Karvonen method,

[(MHR-RHR) * %] + RHR = %HR

does this method use 220-age for the MHR or is there some other method used to find the MHR? If it is the same then we get the following:

using the standard forumla (220-age) my max HR is 173; so 80% would be: 138 bpm, which feels really slow; like I am doing next to nothing. The Karvonen method would be: [(173-58)*.80] + 58= 150 bpm and under Karvonen 138 would be 70% of MHR...a big difference.

The Karvonen numbers feel more accurate to me. At 150 BPM I am working pretty hard, probably a 5-7 on the rating of Perfceived effort (RPE) scale in Carhmichael's book...

According to the standard numbers, I am at 90% when I hit 155 BPM, but with the Karvonen method, 90% would be: 162. I have hit 162 a few times; yesterday when trying to maintain 30 mph for more than a few yards, and it woul get an RPE from me of 8-9.

Could be Jim and me are in the same boat, needing to use a more accurate MHR to determine the work zones we are really in and to get a more structured and formal plan for improvement.
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Old 08-16-06, 07:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDB
Could be Jim and me are in the same boat, needing to use a more accurate MHR to determine the work zones we are really in and to get a more structured and formal plan for improvement.
IMO, and what works for me, is MHR doesn't do anything for anyone because it doesn't predict your LT. Your LT could be anywhere from 50% to 90%. Well, 90% is unlikely. It also doesn't predict your recovery HR, but in general, this is not as difficult to find. For most people, it's brisk walking HR.

I find that structuring my training around my LT gives me the best results. It's the same for all three sports I like. Running, biking, and XC skiing. Threshold workouts 4 mins and longer at around LT, short and hard intervals of 2 mins at 10 beats above LT. Recovery is around 60-70% (70 may even be a little high) and overdistance workouts 3 hours or more at 50-60%. Then there are those speed and muscle specificity workouts which train the neuromuscular adaptation or whatever you call it. Strength build once a week and general strength throughout the week. There you have it.

But first, you need to find your LT.
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Old 08-17-06, 05:54 AM   #9
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Sounds good to me. I have Friel's Cycling Past Fifty and he discusses LT (he calls it LTHR or Lactate Threshold Heart Rate). He suggests riding 5k (3 miles) after a solid warm up and then dividing your average heart rate by 1.04 to find your LT. (There is more in his suggested methods on pages 49-55, so I am just giving the info for the 5k method).

I don't think what I have done so far equates well enough to Friel's suggestions, so later today I will do the 3 mile TT. I will use the park 1.7 mile loop and lay out a 3 mile distance. There is a bit of a hill, but it's not that big and I think the course will work well enough. I would say that I only begin to experience shortness of breath and the other signs of LT when I cross the 160 BPM level, so I think that is going to be pretty close to where my LT is as well.
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Old 08-17-06, 08:57 AM   #10
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yeah, LT is the number you want to base your workouts off of. i think too many people are concerned with max heart rate, and if you use the generic formula, you're likely to be inaccurate.

on a side note, do an LT test a few times during the season\off season. as you progress it will move up. i had an LT level of about 162bpm a year ago and now it's 170bpm.
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Old 08-18-06, 11:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgu
You've been riding for months at zone 4 and you aren't in great shape.

So, your current approach isn't working, and you're looking at training programs that do things differently. Which you don't like.
Maybe I should have clarified. I am in MUCH better shape than I WAS. The hard cycling has helped me GREATLY with weight-loss, energy, etc... but I am a budding bike-geek and want to maximize.

My true question was more of... if the program says 2 days in zone 1, 1 day in zone two, 1 long ride, 1 day of hills/sprints, etc... would I be better off doing 3 days in zone 2 if my body will handle it. I am wondering if I will get a better impact from my riding if I stay in zone 2 vice zone 1. IE. is there benifit in riding in Zone 1 if your body will handle zone 2 without overtraining effects.

Hope I am making sense here...

Going to check out your link. Thanks!!!
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Old 08-18-06, 12:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgu
I did a review of Carmichael's approach a while back that you might find interesting...

http://blogs.msdn.com/ericgu/archive...05/657053.aspx
Wow! Very good infomation and very well written! I would think that someone should be able to upload their ride data (I use the Garmin Edge 305 which tracks everything except how often I spit!) and a coach could go over it, then set up a training program for less than $100/mo.

Do you think the Carmichael system would be more benifical if you had a named contact that you could email questions to directly instead of posting in a forum?
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Old 08-18-06, 12:09 PM   #13
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Stick with the training plan for 1 full revolution/season. Then make modifications as you see fit, or maybe start to cross breed training plans as they work for you. Does the training plan say to ride only 4 days a week? And you want to ride 6?
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Old 08-21-06, 07:19 PM   #14
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throw the computers and crap in the wastebasket


now go ride and chase every last red light, every other rider, till
you puke. and then rest. and then do it again. all the time

if you have kids toss them some food money and go ride some more


simple simple simple and it works
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Old 08-22-06, 08:25 AM   #15
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It works, but then again going on a cherios diet to loose weight works too. A better question is how efficient is it, and will it bring out your full potential? I don't think the answer is yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edzo
throw the computers and crap in the wastebasket


now go ride and chase every last red light, every other rider, till
you puke. and then rest. and then do it again. all the time

if you have kids toss them some food money and go ride some more


simple simple simple and it works
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Old 08-22-06, 08:57 AM   #16
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65% of my calculated max is 112 or going for a brisk walk. No bike needed.

Calculated max is 173, I am 47.

I normally ride for an hour to an hour and a half trying to keep in the right gear for the terain/surface / other variables that maintains a cadence of 80-85 and a calculated HR of 80-85%.

When I hit 86% and up I know before checking as I am breathing to hard and fast.

Yesteday's ride was an hour and a half at 95% in Zone (65-85%) and an ave HR of 135 or 78%.
22 or so miles at 15.1 MPH ave on 15 year old road bike. Came home and had a nice cold beer.

YMMV

LAR
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