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Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

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Old 10-25-06, 12:44 AM   #1
ejconcept
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My evening ride didn't go as planned.....

I've been riding for about 3 months 3-4 times a week. Working on my fitness I'm up to about 15 miles each evening. I took about a week off and was back on the bike tonight picking up where I left off.

I starting out strong feeling great. The miles fly by...maybe I'll do 20 miles tonight. This is a great sport! At about the 8th mile I do a quick sprint to stretch my legs. This is where things go south. Normally I can sprint a few times and recover fairly quickly. My body refuses to recover from the sprint....I can barely pedal the bike - my ride was over.

Coast home break into a cold sweat and throw-up.

Is this a "bonk"?
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Old 10-25-06, 12:52 AM   #2
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No, I think its a cold or flu.
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Old 10-25-06, 10:33 AM   #3
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Unless you are anorexic, or climbing Mount Everest you can't bonk in 8 miles. You may be coming down with something.
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Old 10-25-06, 01:37 PM   #4
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The sprint was what is known as an "interval." You probably pushed your heart, lungs and muscles harder than you have done before. Intervals are great for building performance and fitness, but you might have overdone it a little. On your next ride, sprint a little less hard--or for a shorter time. Gradually build up the duration and intensity of your sprints as your fitness improves. And fitness should improve rapidly with this method of training--it really is fantastic. You might want to research "interval training" in books and here on the forums--very useful information.
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Old 10-25-06, 02:45 PM   #5
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I'm not sick, after I threw up I felt much better. I'm guessing I must have over exerted myself.

Thanks for the tip on "interval training", I'll research that.
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Old 10-26-06, 10:14 AM   #6
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Best to do sprints and intervals on empty stomach

Digestion really is for times when your not doing maximal efforts. When your guts are trying to digest and your legs and lungs are screeming for blood flow digestion is aborted. To prevent food poisoning from your meal rotting or being incompletely digested your body can and will choose to throw it up. It the improperly digested meal gets past the point of coming up the other choice the body can make is loose bowels to get the "crap" out quickly.

If your going to eat before a ride make it at least 45 min before getting in the saddle and mainly easy to digest carbs with a good liquid multivitamin. This combo will set you up for maximum power out put and a superman ride.
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Old 11-07-06, 03:07 AM   #7
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bad sushi?
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Old 11-07-06, 12:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejconcept
I'm not sick, after I threw up I felt much better. I'm guessing I must have over exerted myself.

Thanks for the tip on "interval training", I'll research that.
You are SUPPOSED to throw-up after sprints & intervals. If you don't, you didn't push yourself hard enough. Try a longer warm-up next time, go out to the 15-mile mark before doing anything intense. Then ramp up the effort gradually. Do the first sprint/interval at 75% effort, recover, then the next at 85%, recover, then 95%, etc.
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Old 11-07-06, 01:27 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
You are SUPPOSED to throw-up after sprints & intervals. If you don't, you didn't push yourself hard enough. Try a longer warm-up next time, go out to the 15-mile mark before doing anything intense. Then ramp up the effort gradually. Do the first sprint/interval at 75% effort, recover, then the next at 85%, recover, then 95%, etc.
i really don't think throwing up from exercise is a what you're supposed to do, despite what they try and tell you in gym class...you usually throw up from over exertion......and train with a HRM so you know what zone to be in

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/puke.html

Last edited by pcates; 11-07-06 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 11-07-06, 04:46 PM   #10
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I'm not sure how to over-exert yourself above 100%? We have to separate the muscles from the gastrointestinal system. To get maximum benefits from sprints & intervals (anaerobic workouts), you really do have to exert yourself and work your muscles to complete exhaustion. How your stomach deals with that level of exercise is a different thing completely. The likely causes pointed out in your link may be relevant in the OP's case, drinking too much or too-concentrated a mixture. But the lack of recovery is puzzling, might be pointing at a problem here...

HRM's really only effective for monitoring aerobic sub-LT workouts like tempo and endurance. When doing above-LT workout like sprints & intervals, your HR will always climb steadily to max-HR. It is simply not possible to maintain a steady-HR above LT, or else that would really be your LT.

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Old 11-07-06, 07:38 PM   #11
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forgot to add this the link......

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=761503
so it happens.....but it doesn't mean its a good thing

as you can see there are loads of possible explanations and i meant over exertion in the most general sense..........not to be confused with muscle exhaustion.....and a HRM is incredibly handy for LT training (your LT is 80% of your max HR). For example during super sets, its most effective to bring your max heart rate down to 65% during recovery between sprints, its useful for anaerobic intervals of two minute spints at 90-95% max HR with 4minutes recovery, and its handy for lactate tolerance exercises......though i will admit using watts (power meter) is a better way but this isn't an option for everyone

so i really don't know what you mean by it not being 'possible to maintain a steady-HR above LT, or else that would really be your LT.'

Last edited by pcates; 11-07-06 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 11-07-06, 09:01 PM   #12
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If you do the 2x20 test in the sticky post, you'll find a certain HR that is indicative of "LT" or really a balancing point between aerobic-capacity and true muscular LT exertion. This is the balancing point between muscular and aerobic system where you can go fastest at a steady sustainable pace. This point is where you'd want push for a 1-hr TT for example. It's really a combined HR & muscular-exertion point.

It's also where you want to be doing tempo workouts from 10% below to LT. And also where you want to doing anaerobic intervals above LT. Since exertion levels above this point is anaerobic, your HR will always steadily climb to max-HR. So if your LT point is such that you can maintain 24mph for a 40k TT, going at 24.5mph will have HR steadily climb to max.

If your LT is say... 85% and you're holding 90-95% max-HR for 4-minutes, you're really doing a pulse-width modulation in exertion, you're pushing above LT where HR steadily climbs, then you're backing off a bit to let HR drop... then pushing again. It may be every 5-seconds or it may be every other pedal-stroke, but you're really not pushing at a steady pace in order to maintain the same HR above LT. So a steady-state anaerobic-effort above LT will always have your HR steadily climb.

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Old 11-07-06, 09:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcates
(your LT is 80% of your max HR).
That part shows your lack of understanding of LT. Personally, I prefer the term OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation) as the LT is not some magic turn point where lactate begins to be produced. It is the balancing point, as Danno correctly explained.

Danno also already mentioned how your HR will always rise when working above your LT, but we can still use the HRM data. The rate at which the HR rises (beats/min/min) can be useful to estimate the correct intensities when a power meter is not available. For example, if you wanted to do a 3min interval you would take the difference between your starting and ending HR (eg 190bpm – 90bpm = 100bpm) and divide it by the duration (3min) to get a rough measure of how fast your HR should be rising (33 beats/min/min). So while you are pushing you could look down every 30s or so and see if your HR has risen the correct 16-17bpm.
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Old 11-07-06, 10:09 PM   #14
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Thats the most confusing explantion i've read in a while (danno's not enthalpic).....i know what you're getting at but you're really just using alot of vague terminology for the sake of it i imagine.....but to go back to the orginal arguement you said a HRM wasn't necessary or needed? (i won't even bother to bring up the ridiculous notion that you're supposed to throw up)......well how else (besides using a power meter) would you suppose one would know where they were in terms of their LT? to guess? one of the reason HRMs are suggested for training is because you can get a good indication of your LT from your max HR....as for your sprint suggestion? why pyramid it as a percentage of LT? (which i assume is what you're saying)? you increase time, 10sec, then 20sec then 30sec etc......the point of LT training is to try and increase the amount of time you can maintain at or above your LT

Last edited by pcates; 11-08-06 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 11-07-06, 10:14 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic
That part shows your lack of understanding of LT. Personally, I prefer the term OBLA (onset of blood lactate accumulation) as the LT is not some magic turn point where lactate begins to be produced. It is the balancing point, as Danno correctly explained.
well i should have been more clear......i realize LT is a specific (yet changeable) quantitive number of its own......the 80% of max HR is a way to guess at your LT if one hasn't done a specific anaerobic threshold test as in the 2x20 thread....and for most people its a perfectly good way to train....which is what i've been getting at this whole time

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Old 11-07-06, 10:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic
Danno also already mentioned how your HR will always rise when working above your LT, but we can still use the HRM data. The rate at which the HR rises (beats/min/min) can be useful to estimate the correct intensities when a power meter is not available. For example, if you wanted to do a 3min interval you would take the difference between your starting and ending HR (eg 190bpm – 90bpm = 100bpm) and divide it by the duration (3min) to get a rough measure of how fast your HR should be rising (33 beats/min/min). So while you are pushing you could look down every 30s or so and see if your HR has risen the correct 16-17bpm.

if you can do math in the middle of sprints you are a better man than i
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Old 11-08-06, 06:21 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by pcates
Thats the most confusing explantion i've read in a while (danno's not enthalpic).....i know what you're getting at but you're really just using alot of vague terminology for the sake of it i imagine.....but to go back to the orginal arguement you said a HRM wasn't necessary or needed?
Well, I think the problem is the "LT" term is not really accurate when used in cycling. It's really a muscular-exertion level and not really tied into HR at all. It just happens that in cycling we combine it with HR and assume a standard RPM-range. All I was pointing out was that HRM is not as useful for above-LT workouts as it is for below-LT workouts. Simply because it's not possible to maintain a steady HR above LT that's all. So if a coach tells you to ride 4-minutes at 90% of max (above LT), you're gonna be struggling to figure out how to hold a steady-HR and will have to cycle on & off exertion-levels. A better method of doing anaerobic intervals is the below technique that works on constant effort as a percentage of max muscle-exertion rather than going by HR:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enthalpic
Danno also already mentioned how your HR will always rise when working above your LT, but we can still use the HRM data. The rate at which the HR rises (beats/min/min) can be useful to estimate the correct intensities when a power meter is not available. For example, if you wanted to do a 3min interval you would take the difference between your starting and ending HR (eg 190bpm – 90bpm = 100bpm) and divide it by the duration (3min) to get a rough measure of how fast your HR should be rising (33 beats/min/min). So while you are pushing you could look down every 30s or so and see if your HR has risen the correct 16-17bpm.
This is great! You can measure constant exertion level this way by timing how long it takes to hit max-HR. So a 1-minute interval may be done at 98% effort and you can figure out the acceleration-rate of HR to match that, say... +90bpm/min/min. Then a 2-minute interval would be done at 95% effort at a ramp-up rate of +45bpm/min/min, etc, etc. The idea is to pace yourself at a constant effort above LT (constant-speed on level ground above steady-state TT speed), such that your HR steadily increases and hits max-HR at the end of the interval.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pcates
if you can do math in the middle of sprints you are a better man than i
And that's why I said a HRM isn't as useful for doing sprints & intervals! It's easier to gauge perceived effort relative to your max 100% sprint, and to do a sub-maximum effort that has you blow up in 1, 2, 3, 5, whatever minutes for your intervals. You don't need a HRM to tell you that you've hit your max and given it your all... If you blew up before the end, you went too hard. If you had anything left, you didn't go hard enough. After a couple weeks of interval-training, you'll know exactly what kind of pace you can hold for 1,2,3,4,5 etc. minutes. Great mental training for racing as well because you'll know how long you can hold any kind of effort above LT (but below 100% sprint); perfect for catching breaks or starting one on a hill.


And if you threw up, you know you've gone hard enough . I still think the OP had some other non-training related problem. Maybe it was food, maybe it was warm-up, stomach-cramps, etc.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 11-08-06 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 11-08-06, 04:18 PM   #18
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haha ok agree to disagree and to agree on some points.....

yes LT is a very misunderstood term....and most people don't know the science behind it. if you're a professional (or very very serious) then you should do all the proper testing for finding your LT (as well as VO2max and MHR).........but for most people this isn't needed or an option....now back to HRM...the reason i suggested it was because i think its better to have an idea as to where LT is than not at all, and its a good pacer. If i'm doing anaerobic intervals i can look down and guage roughly where i am and i find that helpful, exertion is a subjective term, i may think i'm really pushing it and say 'yea this is hard' but it may in fact not be all that hard at all, so i know i need to really push myself.....i also find it helpful having an HRM during intervals because i know how much i can recover (down to say 65%). Now i've done tests for me MHR and VO2 so i have a good idea where my LT is. and i can set my HRM up to work with those figures.......but for those who don't....there's nothing wrong with having a HRM during workouts and saying "ahh 90% MHR" and safely assuming you're in a anaerobic state......now don't get me wrong...i'm not the sort of guy who stares at his HRM during my whole training session, but i still find it useful.

and i still strong disagree about the throwing up..........having done it in hockey a few times , and it usually means something just isn't right (ie dehydrated, low blood sugar etc).....i think its perfectly reasonable to as hard as you can and completely exhust yourself without tossing up......but hey go with what works for you

but one thing i'm sure we can both agree on is.......for best results in training.....use a power meter.

Last edited by pcates; 11-08-06 at 07:26 PM.
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