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Old 01-24-07, 07:40 PM   #1
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What is Carmichael talking about? Ice cream vs. yogurt

From Food for Fitness:

Quote:
Although ice cream and frozen yogurt are tasty treats, neither should be your primary dairy source. Neither one is very high in calcium or vitamins, and regular ice cream contains a significant amount of saturated fat. Some people, in an effort to avoid the fat in ice cream, switch to non-fat frozen yogurt. While they have sidestepped the fat, frozen yogurt is not nearly as nutrient-dense as people believe it to be. It is high in sugar and calories, and low in calcium and vitamins. It qualifies more as an empty carrier because it is mainly sugar with a little yogurt. Ice cream and frozen yogurt should be consumed sparingly and considered only minor sources of quality nutrients. In truth, when athletes are craving a frozen dessert, I'd rather see them enjoy a small bowl of ice cream, with its rich, full, fat-influenced taste and consistency, than bother with frozen yogurt. It tends to be a more satisfying treat, a more fulfilling reward for hard work.
But look at the chart on the previous page, all with 8 oz. serving sizes.

Am I missing something here?
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Old 01-24-07, 07:43 PM   #2
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I should have typed out the whole chart. For reference, here are a few other calcium numbers:

Cottage cheese: 160
Skim milk: 300
Soy milk: 40
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Old 01-24-07, 09:35 PM   #3
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I think he's saying that the 18 grams of fat occasionally isn't gonna hurt you. And since it's more satisfying, you're more likely to think of it as an infrequent indulgence.

My $0.02
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Old 01-24-07, 09:41 PM   #4
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Skim milk = 2% reduced fat milk? Because i go through like 2 gallons a week...
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Old 01-24-07, 10:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psydotek
Skim milk = 2% reduced fat milk? Because i go through like 2 gallons a week...
Skim milk = 0% fat.

A cup of skim has 85 calories, 1% has 105 calories, 2% has 120 calories, whole milk has 150 calories. The difference is the number of fat calories.

If you drink 2 gallons a week, that's 32 cups. If you switched to 1%, you would save 32*15=480 calories. If you switched to skim, you'd save 1120 calories.

To look at it in the long term, switching from 2% to 1% would save you about 7 pounds of fat over a year...

I don't find 1% much different from 2% in taste. Skim is more of an acquired taste.
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Old 01-24-07, 10:39 PM   #6
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What I'm saying is this- How can he say neither are high in calcium? Later on in the book he has a list of "Sources of Calcium" and yogurt is #1 on that list. That's higher than milk, cheese, cottage cheese, collard greens, figs, etc. Non-fat frozen yogurt is #1 for calcium in his whole "Dairy Products" section.

The DRI for calcium for someone my age is 1,000 mg. If I had 8 ounces of non-fat frozen yogurt I'd be over halfway there. How is that not a significant amount of calcium?

Granted, skim milk is probably the best way to get calcium for the calories (80 calories per 8 ounces, 300 mg calcium), and I understand the idea of an occasional reward. But to say yogurt is low in calcium is just plain wrong.
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Old 01-24-07, 10:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgu
Skim is more of an acquired taste.
Ugh. Yeah. I have yet to acquire it. I've been "stuck" at 1% for ages now. I also use real butter.
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Old 01-25-07, 01:05 AM   #8
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Maybe he just likes Chocolate Haagen Dazs
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Old 01-25-07, 06:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DXchulo
What I'm saying is this- How can he say neither are high in calcium? Later on in the book he has a list of "Sources of Calcium" and yogurt is #1 on that list. That's higher than milk, cheese, cottage cheese, collard greens, figs, etc. Non-fat frozen yogurt is #1 for calcium in his whole "Dairy Products" section.
Don't confuse yoghurt with frozen yoghurt. Despite the similarity in the name thats where any real similarity ends. A frozen yoghurt dessert has a lot of sugar in it.

Regards, Anthony
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Old 01-25-07, 08:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DXchulo
Am I missing something here?
First, what information are you looking for? What is the best source for calcium? How much dairy should you have? What are you looking for with this information?

Anyway here is some info from Eat to Live by Dr.Joel Fuhrman paraphrased

Dairy is not the best place to get calcium from regardless if it has a lot or not. Milk has an absorbtion rate of about 33% while for most green vegetables its over 50%.

Calcium loss come from a lot of things. Some are animal protein, salt, caffeine, refined sugar, alcohol, nicotine, vitamin a supplements, ect

Their is increased urinary excretion of calcium with animal protein intake but not with vegetable intake. Plant foods are not acid forming while animal protein results in heavy acid load in the blood. This sets off a reaction where calcium is released by the bones to help nuetralize the acid. Sulfur based amino acids in animal products lead to urinary acid production and the loss of calcium.

Adding vitamin A to milk or taking vitamin A supplements makes things worse.

The best foods to get your calcium from are green vegetables, beans, tofu, seasame seeds, and even oranges. You retain calcium better when you do not eat a diet heavy in animal products, sodium, sugar or caffeine. Vegetables are also rich in a lot of other things that are essential for bone strength like potassium, magnesium, vitamin k ect..



If you are looking to strengthen bones, dairy products are not the best. If you are looking for a reason why dairy products are good they are really not and you can do without them.


Also just for some more info here is a list of foods high in calcium and low in calories (very nutrient dense) which is what you are looking for. Not like cheese or ice cream which have tons of fat are are not nutrient dense.

This is the calcium in a 100 Calories of (dont forget your chart is not per 100 calories)

Bok Choy______________________1055
turnip greens___________________921
collard greens__________________559
kale__________________________455
romaine lettuce________________257
tofu _________________________236
milk__________________________194
broccoli______________________182
seasame seeds________________170
soybeans_____________________134
fish__________________________38
egg__________________________32
t bone steak____________________5
pork chop_______________________2

Last edited by Turboem1; 01-25-07 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 01-25-07, 08:52 AM   #11
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Wait, so milk doesn't do a body good?
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Old 01-25-07, 08:57 AM   #12
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It's done me just fine for the last 26 years.
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Old 01-25-07, 09:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
This is the calcium in a 100 Calories of (dont forget your chart is not per 100 calories)

Bok Choy______________________1055
turnip greens___________________921
collard greens__________________559
kale__________________________455
romaine lettuce________________257
tofu _________________________236
milk__________________________194
broccoli______________________182
seasame seeds________________170
soybeans_____________________134
fish__________________________38
egg__________________________32
t bone steak____________________5
pork chop_______________________2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the problem with your method, is that 100 calories of lettuce(or other greens) is A LOT of lettuce. One cup of milk = 20 cups of lettuce
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Old 01-25-07, 09:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grebletie
Wait, so milk doesn't do a body good?
I don't think it does. By the time it's pasteurized and homogenized to get rid of all the cow puss, the nutrients will be gone.

But if you have your own cows, that's a different story.
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Old 01-25-07, 10:34 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG
Don't confuse yoghurt with frozen yoghurt. Despite the similarity in the name thats where any real similarity ends. A frozen yoghurt dessert has a lot of sugar in it.

Regards, Anthony
Yeah, but look at the chart. Non-fat frozen yogurt is 200 calories with 600 mg calcium. 200 calories isn't terrible considering how much calcium that is. To get 600 mg calcium from cheese, for example, you'd probably have to consume more than 200 calories worth.
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Old 01-25-07, 10:36 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowandsteady
the problem with your method, is that 100 calories of lettuce(or other greens) is A LOT of lettuce. One cup of milk = 20 cups of lettuce
Yeah, and again, 100 calories worth of non-fat yogurt would give 300 mg calcium, putting it pretty high on that list.
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Old 01-25-07, 12:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowandsteady
the problem with your method, is that 100 calories of lettuce(or other greens) is A LOT of lettuce. One cup of milk = 20 cups of lettuce
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXchulo
Yeah, and again, 100 calories worth of non-fat yogurt would give 300 mg calcium, putting it pretty high on that list.
You are to hung up on which is more calcium not the concepts of negative calcium balance and increased urinary excretion. Dairy will most likely give you a NEGATIVE balance of calcium. Say you eat 1,000mg of calcium from your milk, yogurt, cheese ect... You can absorb about 1/3 of that or roughly 300 mg. The remaining 700mg will remain in the digestive tract and pass out with your stool. Because you got your calcium from all animal/dairy products your body will REMOVE it from your bones (see my other post for why) and eventually you will pee it out something like 350mg of calcium leading to an overall LOSS OF CALCIUM.

If you eat 500mg of calcium from vegetables you can absorb about 200mg. 300mg will pass out through your stool and you may only pee out 100mg leaving you with a GAIN of 100mg although you consumed only half of the calcium for that 24 hour period.


Once again I am not sure what information you are looking for. Are you looking for a good source of calcium or for an excuse to eat dairy?
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Old 01-25-07, 03:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboem1
First, what information are you looking for? What is the best source for calcium? How much dairy should you have? What are you looking for with this information?

Anyway here is some info from Eat to Live by Dr.Joel Fuhrman paraphrased

Dairy is not the best place to get calcium from regardless if it has a lot or not. Milk has an absorbtion rate of about 33% while for most green vegetables its over 50%.

Calcium loss come from a lot of things. Some are animal protein, salt, caffeine, refined sugar, alcohol, nicotine, vitamin a supplements, ect

Their is increased urinary excretion of calcium with animal protein intake but not with vegetable intake. Plant foods are not acid forming while animal protein results in heavy acid load in the blood. This sets off a reaction where calcium is released by the bones to help nuetralize the acid. Sulfur based amino acids in animal products lead to urinary acid production and the loss of calcium.
I thought the main buffering was done with bicarb so as to spare other elements that are needed for cellular processes.

As for acid in the blood, food does have to get past your stomach which is very acidic and then in neutralised by chyme in the small intestine? Or does the acid just circulate through your intestines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboem1
If you are looking to strengthen bones, dairy products are not the best. If you are looking for a reason why dairy products are good they are really not and you can do without them.
I think strengthening in ones body has more to do with stressing it. In the case of bones, would calcium prevent loss of bone, and not actually strengthen it without stresses being applied to it. Saying that calcium alone is responsible for bone strengthening seems like saying that if you eat protein you will gain muscle.

The skeleton is such a dynamic structure that is constantly being remodelled, it releases calcium into the blood when there is a shortage. This may explain why it is used up in a low pH environ. The next time I get to see someone with ketoacidosis it would be interesting to see Ca levels in the blood, if they even take them.

I say have the ice cream, it gives you even more of an excuse to go for a ride. And don't even think of touching my milk.
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Old 01-25-07, 04:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboem1
Once again I am not sure what information you are looking for. Are you looking for a good source of calcium or for an excuse to eat dairy?
I'm just looking for accuracy in the book. The original paragraph I mentioned was all in the context of dairy products.

What happens if you eat a lot of calcium from plants and eat some other form of animal protein? Will the same process occur?
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Old 01-25-07, 05:21 PM   #20
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My question is... Does ANYONE really eat ice cream or frozen yogurt to get health benefits!?
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Old 01-25-07, 08:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DXchulo
What happens if you eat a lot of calcium from plants and eat some other form of animal protein? Will the same process occur?
The same process will occur just not as dramatically. Since less is ingested from animals there will be less of a spike of acid leading to less having to be brought out from your bones.
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Old 01-25-07, 09:24 PM   #22
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Here is an interesting read on calcium and acid base balance.
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Old 01-26-07, 07:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !!Comatoa$ted
Here is an interesting read on calcium and acid base balance.
Interesting article although some things seems to contradict themsleves.

They seem to be saying that meat/diary do not effect calcium loss yet they state many times

"This NAE (urinary net acid excretion) difference of 25 mEq/d between low and high meat diet corresponds closely to the change in PRAL (dietary potential renal acid load ) of 24 mEq/d"

"Probably, in such situations the plasma bicarbonate level falls and the largest alkali pool of the body, the skeleton, releases increasing amounts of calcium to buffer excessive endogenous acid production. Correspondingly, negative calcium balances have been observed at high renal NAE levels in young healthy adult males, even after hypercalciuria had been largely prevented by an excessive phosphorus intake"

"High meat or high protein diets can easily result in clearly higher NAE values than those observed for the controlled high meat diet of Roughead et al"

Although it does say "Based on the above observations it appears possible that increases in daily acid load which exceed 25 mEq (measurable as -NAE and calculable as -PRAL) may affect calcium homeostasis, particularly if the final NAE is higher than 100 mEq/d."


So I guess the real question is how much meat or dairy would it take to reach those levels to cause a calcium loss?
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Old 01-26-07, 12:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Dairy is not the best place to get calcium from regardless if it has a lot or not. Milk has an absorbtion rate of about 33% while for most green vegetables its over 50%.
Try again. Most green vegetables(excluding spinach) have an absorption rate of 40%. Milk is around 36%.
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Old 01-26-07, 12:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboem1
Interesting article although some things seems to contradict themsleves.

They seem to be saying that meat/diary do not effect calcium loss yet they state many times

"This NAE (urinary net acid excretion) difference of 25 mEq/d between low and high meat diet corresponds closely to the change in PRAL (dietary potential renal acid load ) of 24 mEq/d"

"Probably, in such situations the plasma bicarbonate level falls and the largest alkali pool of the body, the skeleton, releases increasing amounts of calcium to buffer excessive endogenous acid production. Correspondingly, negative calcium balances have been observed at high renal NAE levels in young healthy adult males, even after hypercalciuria had been largely prevented by an excessive phosphorus intake"

"High meat or high protein diets can easily result in clearly higher NAE values than those observed for the controlled high meat diet of Roughead et al"

Although it does say "Based on the above observations it appears possible that increases in daily acid load which exceed 25 mEq (measurable as -NAE and calculable as -PRAL) may affect calcium homeostasis, particularly if the final NAE is higher than 100 mEq/d."


So I guess the real question is how much meat or dairy would it take to reach those levels to cause a calcium loss?

I see what you are saying in that the article contradicts itself, but I think it is a letter and not really an article, more of a discussion of a number of articles and not really research in of itself.

I found another article,that indicates numbers relating to animal protein intake, that includes bicarbonate ingestion and certain other minerals. The study was done on women, but they also discuss other studies that used other populations. The link is for the abstract but the article is free, and I was able to view the full PDF article. I think this may provide a bit more of a clue of the amount of protein intake that will cause a negative Ca balance in relation to some other minerals in the body. As well, it seems like the reference list may be a good place to look for more information on the subject.

From my very limited reading and lack of practical knowledge on this subject it appears that moderation and balance are the key. The more meat that one eats seems to dictate that one should eat more fruits and veg to get a complete diet with all the nutrients needed, and this will balance the negative effects of one type of food over another. But I guess that is what you said earlier.

Thank you for pointing this out, it was enjoyable learning something new.
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