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  1. #1
    Senior Member Gotte's Avatar
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    suppliments for stamina???

    I;ve got a nine day tour of the Black Forest coming up, and for various reasons I can;t get as much training for it as I need. I train as much as I can and have no real problems with a 30 mile day, but that;s only once every couple of weeks. Other than that I can only fit in maybe 5 miles a day commute if I;m lucky.
    Anyone know if there are any suppliments that will maybe add just a little zing to my string. I;m wondering about things like Ginseng and Q10. Magnesium, maybe.

    Anyone know about sups and which ones to take and in which doses?

    Of course, I plan on staying away from the testosterone

  2. #2
    Fattest Thin Man Az B's Avatar
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    The safest, cheapest, and most useful supplement is to ride more. Some supplements can help you with specific aspects of your training, but there are none that will magically put you in better shape. You have to work for that.

    As my dad used to say "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken *****".

    Az

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    Relying on supplements to make up for missed training is definitely the wrong mindset to have. Even if you could find a magic pill (you can't), what satisfaction would it bring you to do a good ride knowing that something other than hard work made it possible?

    There are a lot of supplements out there that make claims that aren't evaluated by the FDA. At best you're wasting your money, and at worst you could be putting something harmful into your body. Why risk it? You'll make more gains by eating right and training hard.

  4. #4
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachAdam
    There are a lot of supplements out there that make claims that aren't evaluated by the FDA. At best you're wasting your money, and at worst you could be putting something harmful into your body. Why risk it? You'll make more gains by eating right and training hard.
    +1

    To the OP:
    Make sure to eat a well balanced diet, and when I'm heavily training I'll take a multivitamin or something like that. But the only thing that is going to help you stay on the bicycle and keep pedalling comfortably day after day is to ride. Supplements will not help you determine whether your bicycle really fits properly for longer distances. Supplements won't tell you whether you've got the right saddle which will still be comfortable on Day 3 or Day 6. Supplements won't help you work on eating while riding. You've actually got to get out there and ride for all that.

    To Coach Adams:
    What sort of long distance coaching do you do? 24-hour Races? The RAAM? Randonnees?

  5. #5
    Senior Member Gotte's Avatar
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    No, no you miss my point. I know that the only way to get real endurace performance is to train. But like I said, I cannot train anymore than I am. I simply haven;t the time.
    I also understand that suppliments will not add anything major, and do not expect them to.
    What I'm asking for is a recommendation of any suppliments which I should be taking to get the best out of my performance (maybe I should have put it like that in the first place).
    I figure that I eat well enough to not need a multivit, but there are other things I've heard can either be best got from suppliments (q10 - I believe you get a lot from meat, but that it's destroyed by heat, so eat as much reindeer as you want, but unless it's raw, nutritionally you could be low in Q10), or can be lacking in our diets uless addressed by certain foods (here I'm thinking of Magnesium - great for energy and readilly available in Brazil nuts, and selinium, which, especially for Europeans can be chronically low in diet becasue of poor farming methods).
    An individual who takes suppliments of these, I figure, could be better when riding, than if they are missing form the diet.

    Now, I'm only going off what I've read about the examples I've mentioned. What would be ideal is some of you chaps who really know your onions (do you say that in the US?) when it comes to suppliments that can ensure I'm in the best condition for my 250+ mile ride, and will maximise my physical condition.

    Does all that make sense?

  6. #6
    '05 NUEser EJ123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotte
    No, no you miss my point. I know that the only way to get real endurace performance is to train. But like I said, I cannot train anymore than I am. I simply haven;t the time.
    I also understand that suppliments will not add anything major, and do not expect them to.
    What I'm asking for is a recommendation of any suppliments which I should be taking to get the best out of my performance (maybe I should have put it like that in the first place).
    I figure that I eat well enough to not need a multivit, but there are other things I've heard can either be best got from suppliments (q10 - I believe you get a lot from meat, but that it's destroyed by heat, so eat as much reindeer as you want, but unless it's raw, nutritionally you could be low in Q10), or can be lacking in our diets uless addressed by certain foods (here I'm thinking of Magnesium - great for energy and readilly available in Brazil nuts, and selinium, which, especially for Europeans can be chronically low in diet becasue of poor farming methods).
    An individual who takes suppliments of these, I figure, could be better when riding, than if they are missing form the diet.

    Now, I'm only going off what I've read about the examples I've mentioned. What would be ideal is some of you chaps who really know your onions (do you say that in the US?) when it comes to suppliments that can ensure I'm in the best condition for my 250+ mile ride, and will maximise my physical condition.

    Does all that make sense?
    What about L-Carnitine before the ride?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    No, no you miss my point. I know that the only way to get real endurace performance is to train. But like I said, I cannot train anymore than I am. I simply haven;t the time.
    I also understand that suppliments will not add anything major, and do not expect them to.
    What I'm asking for is a recommendation of any suppliments which I should be taking to get the best out of my performance (maybe I should have put it like that in the first place).
    Oh, gosh, we are so stupid. Or maybe you should be asking yourself why you are asking stupid questions about nutrition rather than focusing on how you'll deal with being unprepared for your upcoming tour.

    Perhaps, you want some "magic beans". If only some one will just tell you to take some pills, you won't have to think about how miserable you are going to feel from trying to ride farther than you are accustomed.

    Now listen closely, whenever I used to get "all fretful" over an upcoming ride, I would quaff a few flagons of ale directly before retiring. Perhaps you should avail yourself to a similar strategy, but extend the time frame for several days.

    There you go - old boy, now get on with it...... Cherrio !

  8. #8
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    The most important supplement for long rides is carbs & H2O. Being short on those will impact your performance negatively more than any other thing...

  9. #9
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    A caffeine ephedrine stack, like in the old Ultimate Orange or the Old Ripped Fuel would do the trick.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Gotte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
    Oh, gosh, we are so stupid. Or maybe you should be asking yourself why you are asking stupid questions about nutrition rather than focusing on how you'll deal with being unprepared for your upcoming tour.

    Perhaps, you want some "magic beans". If only some one will just tell you to take some pills, you won't have to think about how miserable you are going to feel from trying to ride farther than you are accustomed.

    Now listen closely, whenever I used to get "all fretful" over an upcoming ride, I would quaff a few flagons of ale directly before retiring. Perhaps you should avail yourself to a similar strategy, but extend the time frame for several days.

    There you go - old boy, now get on with it...... Cherrio !

    My humblest appology, my friend, if you misunderstand my tone. My comments were not supposed to be anything other than self-depreciating, as I had hoped the bracketed bit would suggest to anyone. I also hoped that I'd pointed out that "unpreparedness" is not really what I was talking about. But that's obviously all blah-de-blah to you.
    But even if you did simply misiterpreted my tone, I have to say, your reply was totally uncalled for. It was aggressive and patronising and betrayed nothing more than your unhelpfulness and inadequacy in social discourse. Perhaps you have mistaken me for someone who ran over your cat, or bullied you once at school. Believe me, I am not that chap, just a fellow cyclist asking other fellow cyclist for info on dietry suppliments to help me maximise my performance.

    Tell you what, I'll explore Danno and Univega's helpful suggestions - thank you both, by the way, I will definately check it out - and you and me, well, let's just close our eyes now and go to a golden place where we are all friends and help each other. Most other people seem to be there already. It seems a shame for us to ruin the tone with this chargrin.

    But then again, for all my reaching out across the divide, I have to say, perhaps next time, if you have nothing constructive to bring to anyone's table, you should just ignore the post. Iin fact, it's probably best that you just ignore any of my further posts. I don't want to feel guilty about fueling your misanthropy. Let's face it, anyone who uses the term "Now listen closely" to a complete stranger need to take a few steps back. It isn't healthy.
    Last edited by Gotte; 03-17-07 at 08:18 PM.

  11. #11
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    I am sorry that you received the response that you did. I am also curious to the possible answer to the same question. Let us hope that others will realize the true nature of the question you asked and give a decent answer that others could benefit from.

    Gas, the price of a can of beans.

  12. #12
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    If you currently have a well balanced diet, riding 5 miles a day isn't enough to deplete you of any nutrients.

    If you feel your diet isn't well balanced, then your health in general might benefit from the addition of vitamins or minerals to make it balanced .... and I suppose that indirectly your cycling might benefit, but chances are, you won't notice a difference. If you feel this is the case, add a multivitamin, as I suggested before ... mine has a decent selection of vitamins and minerals in it.

    And unless your diet is so badly out of balance, that you are seriously lacking certain key nutrients, what you consume now will have no effect on your performance on this ride you are planning to do. So unless you are currently suffering from scurvy or rickets or something, and need vitamins and minerals to cure the problem, what you eat now will be used up or peed out by the time you do the ride.

    There is NOTHING in the way of consumables, aside from food and water (as DannoXYZ and several of us, have suggested), which will "maximize your performance" ... nothing legal, that is.

    ----------
    "Dietary supplements: Do you need them?"
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/die...ements/NU00635

    And some general info:
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/vitamins.html

    And some specific info on magnesium:
    http://dietary-supplements.info.nih..../magnesium.asp
    Be sure to note the section entitled: "What is the health risk of too much magnesium?" ... and particularly the first sentence. That sentence is true.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Gotte's Avatar
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    Thanks for that, Machka, I'll have a read of your links. Esp the magnesium link. Again, amny thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega
    A caffeine ephedrine stack, like in the old Ultimate Orange or the Old Ripped Fuel would do the trick.
    I'll admit that I was an eph+caff junky till they took that off the market. Now I try to make do with Gatorade and Hammer's Endurolytes. I know plenty of riders who take AAS and EPO without financial help, just to be in front of the pack, so I'll not pretend to be a saint. Nevertheless, you can't ride well without having a strong base, which can only come through good nutrition and proper training+ rest.
    Good mentor= success

  15. #15
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Hi,
    1) are you doing intervals, or some other form organised training? Intensity in training can help here a little.
    2) When you do the trip, take advantage of the glycogen window.
    3) Get up early once a week and do some some physical training. DO
    you have access to a gym?
    Last edited by late; 03-18-07 at 06:13 AM.

  16. #16
    Pat
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    The most important supplement for long rides is carbs & H2O. Being short on those will impact your performance negatively more than any other thing...
    That squares with my experience Danno. I think I could almost chart my water consumption and carbohydrate consumption vs my mileage. I find that both go up as I increase my mileage and if I do a high mileage multiday tour, my diet becomes a complex carb and water fest. It seems to work pretty well for me.

    Maybe that approach is too simple to appeal to people. I think people expect or hope to get magic results from various chemical additives. I am a bit skeptical about such things. When you devour things, your digestive system will dismantle, dismember and destroy most chemicals (or reduce them to a very simple form). I just do not believe that much will get through that can have a noticeable effect. Of course, there is always the placebo effect (if you think it will help you, it will).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka
    To Coach Adams:
    What sort of long distance coaching do you do? 24-hour Races? The RAAM? Randonnees?
    I do centuries, randonnees, 24-hour races, and short tours. Most of my clients are beginners, so I tend to focus in on that area.

    To the OP- I may have misunderstood your original question as well. However, the answer remains that you should simply eat a balanced diet and supplements won't be necessary.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    I have to say, your reply was totally uncalled for. It was aggressive and patronising and betrayed nothing more than your unhelpfulness and inadequacy in social discourse. Perhaps you have mistaken me for someone who ran over your cat, or bullied you once at school. Believe me, I am not that chap,
    By golly, you've got a good grip on the scribe. (there's a paucity of good writing these days)

    Perhaps, I'll offer the best advice one can hope for in your situation.

    Simply approach each day's effort in as conservative fashion as possible. Make every effort to calm your self and ride as slowly, yet evenly as possible. Make every attempt to anticipate your fluid needs and check yourself frequently for blatant signs of stress in any area that contact the bicycle.

    I believe if you simply survive the first day or two, you'll grow accustom to the circumstances quite nicely and have jolly-good time.....

  19. #19
    Raptor Custom Bicycles ZXiMan's Avatar
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    Suppliments....

    Try moomiyo...

    it was a Soviet & Eastern Bloc secret for many years during the 1980's and backed up with surprising scientific evidence that it actually works... I swear by it, but then again, I've just been on a road bike since September '05 and piled up almost 14,000 miles...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega
    A caffeine ephedrine stack, like in the old Ultimate Orange or the Old Ripped Fuel would do the trick.
    This stuff is a still sold, but without the ephedrine, it is a shadow of its former potency.

    For lack of anything better, if you are not going to consider good old caffeine, you may want to consider Spike. Read about it at: http://www.t-nation.com/index.do

    To be honest I have never tried it. I have used the old Ultimate Orange and can tell you for a fact that you would indeed feel it the very first time you tried it. It was always good for a lifting a few more pounds in a contest.

    One word of advice, NEVER try something for the first time on race day. Try something before the day of the race, even if it is a cup of coffee and you don’t drink coffee. Everyone reacts different and if it makes you feel out of sorts you won’t want to use it on a race day.
    Last edited by Univega; 03-18-07 at 03:23 PM.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Gotte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
    By golly, you've got a good grip on the scribe. (there's a paucity of good writing these days)

    Perhaps, I'll offer the best advice one can hope for in your situation.

    Simply approach each day's effort in as conservative fashion as possible. Make every effort to calm your self and ride as slowly, yet evenly as possible. Make every attempt to anticipate your fluid needs and check yourself frequently for blatant signs of stress in any area that contact the bicycle.

    I believe if you simply survive the first day or two, you'll grow accustom to the circumstances quite nicely and have jolly-good time.....

    Why thank you very much. I appreciate the compliment. I'm not one to bear a grudge (well, not unless you're the chap who worked his magic on my girlfriend Tracey Cottrell at that party in Marple Bridge in 1985. If you are him, I hope you're still happy together, but can I have my signed Prince album back. I believe you stole that too, and I bet I could get a holiday in Spain out of that if I put it on Ebay).

    Anyway, life's too short (I know that for a fact, we're burying my father in law this week - 64 and weighing about 8 stone - you chaps get those prostates checked first sign anything's wrong). But I do tend to squeel when poked, though, so many apologies if I caused any offense.

    I thank you for your advice, and for your best wishes regarding the ride.

    Much appreciated.

    PS, if you are that chap from the party in 1985, I 'd just like to add that those two blue streaks in your hair were ridiculous, as were your Pod shoes, your waffle shirt and your flecked baggy pants. I hope you are bald, sir, and paunchy, and working in a car showroom in Belle View, bitter and vitriolic as the punters walk away, leaving you on the lot with rain running down your neck and mud and diesel on the cuffs of your trousers...
    Tracey will enjoy washing that out, as you blather on about this month's bonus and how once again you almost made it.

    Even if you're not him, could you pretend to be? Just so I can get some closure after all these years.
    Last edited by Gotte; 03-18-07 at 12:48 PM.

  22. #22
    Recumbent Ninja
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    Horny goat weed gives me the stamina to go all night long!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimedium

    Oh, not that kind of stamina....

  23. #23
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    I take Siberian Ginseng (eleuthrococcus senticosus) during heavy training. Don't know if it helps. Doesn't hurt. A definite maybe. I take CoQ10 all the time. Same thing. Cheap, anyway, compared to the cost of a foreign bike trip.

    As others have posted, it's 90% training and 10% everything else. If it were me, I'd have a 1/2 liter of beer after every ride in the Black Forest. You know you'll enjoy that, and every town will have different beer. That will take the pain right out of your legs. Have one for me.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Gotte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
    I take Siberian Ginseng (eleuthrococcus senticosus) during heavy training. Don't know if it helps. Doesn't hurt. A definite maybe. I take CoQ10 all the time. Same thing. Cheap, anyway, compared to the cost of a foreign bike trip.

    As others have posted, it's 90% training and 10% everything else. If it were me, I'd have a 1/2 liter of beer after every ride in the Black Forest. You know you'll enjoy that, and every town will have different beer. That will take the pain right out of your legs. Have one for me.

    That's the kind of carb-loading I like. Many thanks for the input.

  25. #25
    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZXiMan
    Try moomiyo... and backed up with surprising scientific evidence that it actually works.
    It looks like it's suggested to be a growth hormone mimetic? I can't find much of anything. Do you have any citations?
    Joe

    Veho difficilis, ago facilis

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