Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    seattle based cyclist merlinman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    My Bikes
    Merlin Extralight, Gios Steel, Schwinn Voyageur fixie
    Posts
    173
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    bad night sleep - still try to train hard???

    due to kids, stress, maybe being over 50 I get a bad night sleep from time to time. When I have a hard training session scheduled for the next morning I find my performance predictably is off (heart rate up, tank empty). So my question is - am I better off skipping that workout or doing it as best I can? For example, yesterday I was supposed to do 3x15 minute intervals at threshold (300 watts). I managed 1 @15 minutes @ 296W, 1 at 13 minutes @289W, and the 3rd was 7 minutes @ 291W. I made the conscious choice to try to stay at the designated power level and bail on the minutes. But should I have gone for the time even if the power output declined (putting forth whatever effort I could muster)?

    BTW this was an interesting field test contrast between HR and RPE and power. My HR was high, the RPE was high, but my power level was dropping fast.

    and I am real glad today is a rest day! thanks in advance for your insights.
    Andiamo!!

  2. #2
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Deep in the Shawnee Forest
    My Bikes
    LeMond - Gunnar
    Posts
    2,786
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    bad night sleep - still try to train hard???
    Boy that's a tough question.

    First of all, there is quite of range of what a "bad night's sleep" is. I often have a "poor" night's sleep. But a "bad night", would be one where I actually laid awake for a while. Any-whooo, all I can say is, if you only have that day left to dedicate to intensity then do it. If you have a more flexible schedule and know you can try for the next day, then consider putting it off.

    I didn't sleep that well, but I need to do intervals - today........

  3. #3
    grilled cheesus aham23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    8675309
    My Bikes
    2010 CAAD9 Custom, 06 Giant TCR C2 & 05 Specialized Hardrock Sport
    Posts
    6,933
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i have heard that the key night for good rest prior to a big active day is NOT the night just before, but actually two or three nights before the event. i have had severall restless nights prior to big training or event days and did just fine. go for it and let us know how it turns out. later.

  4. #4
    Senior Member SirScott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Littleton, CO
    Posts
    206
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Take your resting heart rate every morning when you wake up. If it's 10% higher than normal, take an easy day.
    FTW Racing Crew

  5. #5
    i believe in me evanyc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    2,712
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    for some reason my resting heart rate is always higher right after i wake up than it is an hour or two later.

  6. #6
    Senior Member SirScott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Littleton, CO
    Posts
    206
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That's fine, the point is to keep a consistent record. If you record it immediately after you wake up, then you can't introduce too many variables. If you record it later when it has typically come down, then maybe one day you have coffee at 6:30, but the next at 7:00...then measure at 7:30, well, that'll change things.

    Me personally, my HR always jumps immediately after the alarm goes off because it scares the crap out of me. I spend a few minutes just lying there, and then I take my reading.
    FTW Racing Crew

  7. #7
    OM boy cyclezen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Goleta CA
    My Bikes
    a bunch
    Posts
    3,011
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by merlinman
    due to kids, stress, maybe being over 50 I get a bad night sleep from time to time. When I have a hard training session scheduled for the next morning I find my performance predictably is off (heart rate up, tank empty). So my question is - am I better off skipping that workout or doing it as best I can? For example, yesterday I was supposed to do 3x15 minute intervals at threshold (300 watts). I managed 1 @15 minutes @ 296W, 1 at 13 minutes @289W, and the 3rd was 7 minutes @ 291W. I made the conscious choice to try to stay at the designated power level and bail on the minutes. But should I have gone for the time even if the power output declined (putting forth whatever effort I could muster)?
    interesting in a bunch of ways
    Over the past few years (55+) I can prolly count on both hands the nights I;ve had a 'great' sleep. Mostly I get a couple hrs, wake and get a few more... age? prolly? 'men'O pause' (as opposed to womenO pause) sometimes I think so... you gettin night sweats?

    anyway, over the years I can think of more times when I've felt like crap due to a bad night and had a surprisingly great day racing. And then there were those days when I felt like crap and truly performed that way. mental? maybe

    Looks like you 'fought' thru that, not with the results you'd hoped for, but al least your good effort. I would have also given it a 'go'. I think that's worth attempting.
    I think the real danger is not so much in 'over-exertion'; since that would take a number of days of reaching beyond what your body can accomplish in a healthy manner - as in 'overtraining'.
    The danger has always been, for me, that real fatigue (as opposed to just 'detonating' on a ride/race) causes slips in 'technique' that can cause real injury.
    I.E. - 5 weeks ago I was feeling really like I had gone over a plateau. So in my usual manner I started charging harder during workouts - did 5 very hard days back to back, the last 2 of which was a hill climb repeat day of 4K ft of climbing and then did the local Crit practice on the last day.
    That last day was brutal, riding with the local 20 & 30 yr olds. It was hard enough for me to really blow off the back eventually. And in the process I did some sort of 'damage' to both knees. Felt it the next day. COuld barely manage a light tempo ride of 25 miles. Now 4 weeks later, I'm still feeling the effects in one knee and the other feels almost 'normal'. But it took all 4 weeks to start recovering.
    When I'm really fatigued I tend to slide into 'poor' posture and technique, either one of which can cause me injury if I'm really pushing. So when I'm in that state I try to really focus on technique and posture and if I can't maintain it properlly I usually back off - except 5 weeks ago when I got stoopid again

  8. #8
    seattle based cyclist merlinman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    My Bikes
    Merlin Extralight, Gios Steel, Schwinn Voyageur fixie
    Posts
    173
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    got better sleep the last two nights (not perfect but normal - wake up at 3, back to sleep, up at 5). yesterday was a rest day. Did 3x Cougar Mountain today - 2.25 miles, 1,000 feet elevation, 8.5% grade. Not trying to kill it - just a hard effort. Averaged 300W first one (16:37), 282W on second, 276W on 3rd. Decent effort and felt ok. So the issue with Wednesday was not overtraining in general but the sleep deprivation of the night before. Maybe the answer is it doesn't matter what you do that next day????
    Andiamo!!

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I am a medical resident, so I am often riding on zero sleep after a 30 hour shift. It hurts like hell. The first 20 minutes I am definitely slow, but then I just pick up and get back into it. OVerall, I have no doubt that its not my peak performance, but if you are going to have a stressful lifestyle without a lot of free time, you just have to suck it up and do it. In the end you'll be happy you did.

  10. #10
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,458
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I would go for it. But maybe you can find out what the sleep problem is and deal with it. There are many things to help that don't even involve drugs.


    Quote Originally Posted by merlinman
    For example, yesterday I was supposed to do 3x15 minute intervals at threshold (300 watts). I managed 1 @15 minutes @ 296W, 1 at 13 minutes @289W, and the 3rd was 7 minutes @ 291W.....
    Did 3x Cougar Mountain today - 2.25 miles, 1,000 feet elevation, 8.5% grade. Not trying to kill it - just a hard effort. Averaged 300W first one (16:37), 282W on second, 276W on 3rd.
    Maybe you're worrying too much about all the numbers and statistics. Just ride the damn bike. You really don't have to think about it so much and measure everything, do you?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  11. #11
    seattle based cyclist merlinman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    My Bikes
    Merlin Extralight, Gios Steel, Schwinn Voyageur fixie
    Posts
    173
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hmmm...did I ask about solving the sleep problem? I was unaware I did. Should I need some help in that realm I will be sure to consult you.

    thank you also for enlightening me with your training philosophy. I will file it in the appropriate place.
    Andiamo!!

  12. #12
    bzzzz fuzzthebee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    360
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I would take it down a level. For instance if you had 3 x 15 @ threshold scheduled, I would do a tempo ride instead, and try to go at least 90' steady, so you still get a good TSS for the workout.

  13. #13
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,458
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by merlinman
    Hmmm...did I ask about solving the sleep problem? I was unaware I did. Should I need some help in that realm I will be sure to consult you.

    thank you also for enlightening me with your training philosophy. I will file it in the appropriate place
    .
    I just thought that if you dealt with the sleep problem, there would be be no training problem. As for where you file it, I don't care. I read your training philosophy, or accounting practices, or whatever, and also filed it appropriately.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  14. #14
    3 summits of Athens
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Athens
    My Bikes
    SCOTT AFD/KLEIN MANTRA/BMC SSX Streetfire
    Posts
    335
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Recently i participated in a 400km brevet that started at 9 pm. I have to admit i was kinda anxious about how well i could physically stand an all-night endurance test and half way back after sunrise, on a rather hot day (27 C). My experience is that sleep deprivation cost me almost nothing in stamina or performance, mostly thanks to my overall excitement and stress adaptation of the body.
    I'm not a teen rider (43yrs) but i believe we couldn't possibly imagine the extent of our gifts or limitations. Thousands of 50+ riders have completed sleepless titanic efforts like the RAAM or PBP.
    I'm a doc myself, not specialized in sports physiology of course, but i think that an one night insomnia incident can't seriously affect someone, except those suffering from neurological diseases, like epilepsy etc. So, i'd never skip a training chance -they are so rare in our busy lives..- only because i had a 3-hour night sleep.
    Insomnia is unfortunately an evil friend that calls more frequently as we age, so live with it.
    May the Force watch over our trace..

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •