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Old 05-15-07, 02:28 PM   #1
massimo
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What do you think of soy?

What do you guys think of the soy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean. At the bottom of the page you will see links for "Advocacy and general information" and "Critical". I am playing it safe and consuming soy in moderation. Both camps, pro and vs. soy, are big industries with much at stake, so its hard to know what is misinformation.
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Old 05-15-07, 02:37 PM   #2
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Nothing wrong with soy, unless you eat it a LOT. Same can be said for many other things.

Me, I like soy products.
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Old 05-15-07, 05:25 PM   #3
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Soy is fine in moderation (see my note re Endurox shake). But, I've read recently that low fat chocolate milk may be a better recovery drink than chocolate soy.
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Old 05-15-07, 06:06 PM   #4
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Well I'm involved with the Weston A Price Foundation which lobies against the widespread use of soy, paticuarly in infant formula which the Foundation belives should be banned. See, http://westonaprice.org/

Now the WAPF is a traditionalist group so it considers that moderate consumption of traditionaly fremented soy foods is OK but not neccesarily ideal.

Highly proccessed western soy foods are a different story all together and they have no redeeming qualities. We are told that soy foods are healthy and safe because lots of asians consume soy foods and are healthy however traditional asian soy foods and modern western soy foods are 2 totaly different things.

Regards, Anthony
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Old 05-15-07, 06:39 PM   #5
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My wife and daughter love Natto which are fermented soy beans. They are light brown in color, a little like miniature pinto beans, but they are covered with a stringy, slimy goo. It looks and smells absolutely disgusting, but they said it's healthy and they eat it in moderation.
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Old 05-15-07, 08:39 PM   #6
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I eat it onlywhen going to sushi restaurants. Otherwise, I avoid it completely.
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Old 05-16-07, 07:06 AM   #7
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Soy can interfere with Thyroid function. It is not a very strong interference, but if you already have a thyroid issue, I would at least discuss it with your doctor.
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Old 05-16-07, 08:22 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG
Well I'm involved with the Weston A Price Foundation which lobies against the widespread use of soy, paticuarly in infant formula which the Foundation belives should be banned. See, http://westonaprice.org/

Now the WAPF is a traditionalist group so it considers that moderate consumption of traditionaly fremented soy foods is OK but not neccesarily ideal.

Highly proccessed western soy foods are a different story all together and they have no redeeming qualities. We are told that soy foods are healthy and safe because lots of asians consume soy foods and are healthy however traditional asian soy foods and modern western soy foods are 2 totaly different things.

Regards, Anthony
Thought it would be some bogus front for whatever, but looks sincere from a quick review (answers.com). Thanks
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Old 05-16-07, 11:52 AM   #9
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Others here (and other places) know much more than me . . . but there is emerging research that really says much more than a little soy is not so good. A few years ago you would have been very hard pressed to find anyone near mainstream that would say anything against soy products. Aikigreg first turned me on to some research on its downsides years ago on a different internet forum. When he first said stay away from it (especially if you are a guy) I thought he was nuts . . . that is how much the conventional wisdom was saying that soy is a wonder food. Then I read it. In the years since, much more has come out backing it up. In the past year the national tide has started to turn some.

Do a search for soy and estrogen and you will find plenty that will at least make you think. Whey protien based stuff seems to be preferable, unless you are a vegan.

Like all things, research on your own and see what you think.
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Old 05-16-07, 01:01 PM   #10
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Do a search for soy and estrogen and you will find plenty that will at least make you think. Whey protien based stuff seems to be preferable, unless you are a vegan.
Absolutely correct. There is a reason the entire fitness industry (i.e., male bodybuilders) avoids soy like the plague. Stick with whey, chicken, fish, turkey, egg, and micellar casein.
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Old 05-16-07, 01:22 PM   #11
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Lots of soy makes you girly man. Seriously, if I were a man, I would avoid large amounts of soy. In moderation it is fine, but don't drink gallons of soy every week. You might as well get put in estrogen replacement therapy for your hot flashes.
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Old 05-16-07, 01:50 PM   #12
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Lots of soy makes you girly man.
Really? Who do you know that this has happened to?

I hear people say this all the time, but no one has ever been able tell me they have any experience with anyone who has had this problem.

Curious.
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Old 05-16-07, 02:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by lecterman
Really? Who do you know that this has happened to?

I hear people say this all the time, but no one has ever been able tell me they have any experience with anyone who has had this problem.

Curious.

I had this problem, actually, and that's why I steer people away from both soy and vegetarianism. I went vegetarian for 6 years, and the majority of my protein intake, if not all, came from soy. I didn't know HOW to be a vegetarian and didn't eat quinoa or much in the way of beans and such.

Zoom out to 6 years later and I started having a host of health problems. At 28 years old I started to have to undergo hormone replacement, and it was directly attributed to my poor protein habits and overuse of soy.

It's unfrotunately why I've become so knowledgeable about steroids. I wasn't given a choice.
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Old 05-16-07, 02:21 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by aikigreg
I had this problem, actually, and that's why I steer people away from both soy and vegetarianism. I went vegetarian for 6 years, and the majority of my protein intake, if not all, came from soy. I didn't know HOW to be a vegetarian and didn't eat quinoa or much in the way of beans and such.

Zoom out to 6 years later and I started having a host of health problems. At 28 years old I started to have to undergo hormone replacement, and it was directly attributed to my poor protein habits and overuse of soy.

It's unfrotunately why I've become so knowledgeable about steroids. I wasn't given a choice.

Greg, Sorry to hear about your problem.

I would be interested in understanding just how much soy protein you were eating. Not to be antagonistic, just to get an idea of your problem.

I have the opposite experience. I have been a vegan for 6 years, and while I eat a decent amount of soy, I don't eat an overabundance of it or at every meal, but I eat my share.

In these 6 years, I have had no negative health issues. On the contrary, my health has increased significantly.

So to have an understanding of your intake will help me substantiate my beliefs or not.

Based on your response, it sounds like you may have "overdone" it with soy consumption. I'm not saying that to be mean, that's just what it sounds like.

In either case, it is certainly not an indicator that vegetarianism/veganism is a bad thing. It has to be done "correctly" just like any dietary lifestyle.

For example, is eating meat bad? No. Not generally. Is eating bacon at every meal bad? Yes
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Old 05-16-07, 02:25 PM   #15
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I'm a vegetarian, and eat a lot of "fake" meats, that tend to be highly processed Soy, Textured Vegetable Protein, or Mycoprotein (Morningstar Farms, Boca, Quorn, etc). My wife and I love this stuff, but I suspect it isn't good for us so try not to get too crazy with it. We also eat plenty of dairy and beans, so I'm not that worried about too much of my protein coming from soy.

As regards the risks of soy, is it as dangerous in these highly processed foods as it is in more raw varieties?
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Old 05-16-07, 02:46 PM   #16
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Lots of soy makes you girly man. Seriously, if I were a man, I would avoid large amounts of soy. In moderation it is fine, but don't drink gallons of soy every week. You might as well get put in estrogen replacement therapy for your hot flashes.
Your body quickly learns to ignore hormones in food. When my wife tried various plant hormones for her menopausal symptoms, she got at most a day or two of relief. Your body adapts...

Soy in moderation is fine. The one poster who had problems consumed large amounts over a long period of time. To be honest, I wonder why he did that. Vegetarians eat beans. Lots of beans. Lots and lots of beans...

Oh, another poster said weightlifters avoided soy. This is not true. Soy used to be very popular; these things change with time, now whey is popular. In a year or two something else will be popular. So it goes... But you can easily find protein blends that contain soy. You see, the hormones are mostly in the fat, not the protein.
I know of one bodybuilder who believes that used carefully that soy protein can increase testosterone.
I have my doubts about that; but without thorough research this sort of speculation seems inevitable.

Yet another poster mentioned casein. I am a fan of casein because it digest slowly. I am not sure if the type he likes digests slowly, I think maybe not. To make a very long story short... protein is protein is protein.... An Amerian eating a varied diet will get plenty of high quality protein.

If you want to supplement with protein powder, which I do, I use and suggest good old fashioned milk protein. It's cheap, it works.

I strongly suggest avoiding goofy products. There are a lot of them and almost all of them are bought by people who should know better. Your body was not designed to absorb large amounts of predigested protein, megadoses of vitamins, bizarre mixtures of unresearched herbs, etc. These things will slow your progress down, not speed it up.

You may now return to your scheduled programming...
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Old 05-16-07, 03:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by late
Your body quickly learns to ignore hormones in food. When my wife tried various plant hormones for her menopausal symptoms, she got at most a day or two of relief. Your body adapts...

Soy in moderation is fine. The one poster who had problems consumed large amounts over a long period of time. To be honest, I wonder why he did that. Vegetarians eat beans. Lots of beans. Lots and lots of beans...

Oh, another poster said weightlifters avoided soy. This is not true. Soy used to be very popular; these things change with time, now whey is popular. In a year or two something else will be popular. So it goes... But you can easily find protein blends that contain soy. You see, the hormones are mostly in the fat, not the protein.
I know of one bodybuilder who believes that used carefully that soy protein can increase testosterone.
I have my doubts about that; but without thorough research this sort of speculation seems inevitable.

Yet another poster mentioned casein. I am a fan of casein because it digest slowly. I am not sure if the type he likes digests slowly, I think maybe not. To make a very long story short... protein is protein is protein.... An Amerian eating a varied diet will get plenty of high quality protein.

If you want to supplement with protein powder, which I do, I use and suggest good old fashioned milk protein. It's cheap, it works.

I strongly suggest avoiding goofy products. There are a lot of them and almost all of them are bought by people who should know better. Your body was not designed to absorb large amounts of predigested protein, megadoses of vitamins, bizarre mixtures of unresearched herbs, etc. These things will slow your progress down, not speed it up.

You may now return to your scheduled programming...

I am telling you as a scientist I wouldn't eat large amounts of soy as a man(or even as a woman). Your body does not ignore hormones. You may become tolerant to a point, but moderation is the key. And your n=1 anecdotal evidence is hardly convincing. There is nothing wrong with drinking soy milk. But you had better not be drinking soy milk every day, and eating tofu, and having soy beans, and ...... You get my point. Eating soy as a whole natural product is not the same as eating processed soy. Also processed soy in the US is not the same as in asian countries.

Like others have said, meat isn't bad, but bacon at every meal is bad. Just eat it in moderation and you should be fine.

Go ahead and do a search in www.pubmed.com
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Old 05-16-07, 03:17 PM   #18
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I know of one bodybuilder who believes that used carefully that soy protein can increase testosterone.
Well that clearly will never be the case. If the guy wants more T then just up the depot T injections, LOL.

Apparently, both whey and soy isolate rate a perfect 1.0 on the PDCAAS scale, so they're both very good products. The thing to remember is that there are several extraction methods used to derive both soy & whey protein which likely explains some of the different experiences. If I would use soy protein, I'd just make sure it was the isolate type. Personally, I prefer to derive my daily protein from as many different sources as possible because each source has a very unique amino acid profile.
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Old 05-16-07, 03:34 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by lecterman
Greg, Sorry to hear about your problem.

I would be interested in understanding just how much soy protein you were eating. Not to be antagonistic, just to get an idea of your problem.

I have the opposite experience. I have been a vegan for 6 years, and while I eat a decent amount of soy, I don't eat an overabundance of it or at every meal, but I eat my share.

In these 6 years, I have had no negative health issues. On the contrary, my health has increased significantly.

So to have an understanding of your intake will help me substantiate my beliefs or not.

Based on your response, it sounds like you may have "overdone" it with soy consumption. I'm not saying that to be mean, that's just what it sounds like.

In either case, it is certainly not an indicator that vegetarianism/veganism is a bad thing. It has to be done "correctly" just like any dietary lifestyle.

For example, is eating meat bad? No. Not generally. Is eating bacon at every meal bad? Yes
+1

Add me to the list of Vegatarians/Vegans who eats a moderate amount of soy "food" I tend towards the real deal though, edamame, tempe, miso, shoyu sauce, some soy milk, etc.. and not so much the "processed" boca burger, fake meat style stuff (although occasionaly when strapped for meal ideas I do go to the freezer for something like that). I do eat a lot of other veggy/vegan protein stuff too, like seitan, beans, lentils etc... In both cases I try and buy organic when pratical. I also eat fish three or four times a month even though techically that is not veggy - this is something I may give up at some point. I do use soy-based protein shakes though, I may look at the label a little closer...

I'm not sure I buy into the anti-soy hoo-hah, most of it seems based on somewhat fuzzy research and questionable sample populations and dosages/amounts consumed etc... Secondly at age 46 some of the concerns don't really apply even if the dire warnings prove even remotely true.

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Old 05-16-07, 05:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by deolmstead
I'm a vegetarian, and eat a lot of "fake" meats, that tend to be highly processed Soy, Textured Vegetable Protein, or Mycoprotein (Morningstar Farms, Boca, Quorn, etc). My wife and I love this stuff, but I suspect it isn't good for us so try not to get too crazy with it. We also eat plenty of dairy and beans, so I'm not that worried about too much of my protein coming from soy.

As regards the risks of soy, is it as dangerous in these highly processed foods as it is in more raw varieties?
See that was my problem. The majority of my protein intake came from soy, and it was a fairly low amount of protein anyway - maybe 15% of calories per day at most.

Obviously you can be vegetarian and be healthy - look at India for goodness sakes - but you'll never be muscular - you'll be tired a lot, and have other side effects as well. Just not smart, after having done the research myself over the years and having had enough anecdotal evidence.
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Old 05-16-07, 06:14 PM   #21
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Obviously you can be vegetarian and be healthy - look at India for goodness sakes - but you'll never be muscular - you'll be tired a lot, and have other side effects as well.

Shenanigans!
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Old 05-16-07, 07:45 PM   #22
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See that was my problem. The majority of my protein intake came from soy, and it was a fairly low amount of protein anyway - maybe 15% of calories per day at most.

Obviously you can be vegetarian and be healthy - look at India for goodness sakes - but you'll never be muscular - you'll be tired a lot, and have other side effects as well. Just not smart, after having done the research myself over the years and having had enough anecdotal evidence.
WRONG!

You can indeed be muscular, I'm living proof. I added a net of ~10-15 lbs of muscle since I started working out over 4 months ago. I am a vegetarian although I do eat some fish. However, with closer attention to diet I could have substituted my fish protein gram count with other sources. I don't really drink milk, but eggs and some cheese were in my diet too (I'm not vegan). I also used protein shakes (mainly soy based) during my active training period to get me to ~110-140 grams/day of protein.

Doing any of this without soy (processed or in whole form) as a protein source would be hard, not impossible, but hard. There are some folks who question if that much protein is needed to increase muscle strength - as opposed to pure mass - not sure I agree, but regardless and personal anecdotes aside, it is not true that you cannot be muscular and a vegetarian at the same time - it does require some close attention to diet though
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Old 05-16-07, 08:16 PM   #23
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As a coach, it is my opinion that people who think they have added 15 pounds of muscle have added about 4-6. Sorry, but I've trained a whole lot of people. You're not going to convince me otherwise.
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Old 05-16-07, 08:34 PM   #24
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As a coach, it is my opinion that people who think they have added 15 pounds of muscle have added about 4-6. Sorry, but I've trained a whole lot of people. You're not going to convince me otherwise.

aikigreg,

I don't think that was his point more than the fact that you cannot generalize your situation with that of the general population.

You yourself admitted that you screwed up you hormones by consuming an ill-conceived vegetarian diet.

Just because you had a bad experience does not make your statements valid for everyone else.
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Old 05-16-07, 08:47 PM   #25
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As a coach, it is my opinion that people who think they have added 15 pounds of muscle have added about 4-6. Sorry, but I've trained a whole lot of people. You're not going to convince me otherwise.
Well, we'll split the difference and call it 8 lbs. The increase in muscle was noticed by myself and my family, my love handles disappeared and most of my belly too, pant sizes by 2" but I only lost a few lbs of actual body weight. My trainer was checking my progress and indicated this was fairly normal for a medium intensive workout program 3 x week +biking +yoga

But you'll forgive me if I worry about your opinions about vegetarians with such ideas like:

"but you'll never be muscular - you'll be tired a lot, and have other side effects as well"

"it was a fairly low amount of protein anyway - maybe 15% of calories per day at most"

Most people's thinking about vegetarians is kooky at best, relying on "anecdotal evidence" and the such...
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