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  1. #1
    not actually Nickatina andre nickatina's Avatar
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    Anyone supplement with MSM here?

    If so, what dosage to you take and what positive effects do you notice in relation to your bike training?

    I have, in the past, found MSM to be a very useful supplement for a wide variety of different reasons. For a time, taking 10g a day of it gave me so much energy I constantly wanted to run instead of walk, and had hair and skin as soft as a baby's. On top of that, I didn't have any soreness problems related with my active lifestyle. Another effect I noticed at the time on my job (as a pizza cook) was that I didn't blister if I accidentally made contact with the 600+ degree oven when supplementing with plentiful MSM, whereas if I wasn't using any I'd easily blister. Recently I started supplementing again after almost forgetting about the stuff because of knee pain, and already it is feeling better.

    http://www.msm-info.com/ has quite a bit of useful info.

    The way MSM impacts pain is currently explained by the following mechanisms:
    • MSM is a natural analgetic: it blocks the transfer of pain impulses through nerve fibers (C-fibers).
    • MSM blocks inflammations and inflammatory processes. MSM enhances the activity of cortisol, a natural anti-inflammatory hormone produced by the body.
    • MSM improves the permeability of cell membranes. This improves the uptake of nutrients and many vitamins and the elimination of waste products and excess cellular fluids.
    • MSM dilates bloood vessels, enhancing the blood circulation. This, too, helps to eliminate waste products from the body, which speeds up healing.
    • MSM is a muscle relaxant. This is an important and often overlooked benefit of MSM. Many chronic pains are aggrevated by chronic muscle tension in the body.
    • MSM aids the natural defense mechanisms in the body by regulating the prostaglandin metabolism, and regulates the formation of anitbodies and immune complexes.
      MSM slows down and restores crosslinking in collagen. Crosslinking in collagen is a natural process in scar formation, causing hard and often painful scar tissues. Particularly in the case of burn scars, in which large surface areas may be affected, this may lead to chronic pain. MSM heals scar tissue which makes the skin more flexible. Dramatic examples are known of people who have treated burn scars with a MSM ointment and have seen their scars almost disappear and have eliminated associated pains.
    http://www.msm-info.com/#Chronic

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by andre nickatina
    I noticed at the time on my job (as a pizza cook) was that I didn't blister if I accidentally made contact with the 600+ degree oven when supplementing with plentiful MSM, whereas if I wasn't using any I'd easily blister. [/URL]
    I haven't tried it. I'm thinking of a way to put this nicely. I’m suspicious of anyone who claims a supplement would do some of the things you claim. Do you have a financial interest in this?

  3. #3
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    It's part of the Glucosamine formula I take for a little joint pain I used to suffer. The wife insisted on that particular formulation. The claims seem way over blown to me. I have not noticed a difference in the effectiveness of the Glucosamine with or with out the MSM.

    According to a surgeon who treated both my wife and me, the Glucosamine works for some folks, but the Condroiten often combined with it does not work at all unless it's injected directly into the joint.

    Al

  4. #4
    not actually Nickatina andre nickatina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega
    I haven't tried it. I'm thinking of a way to put this nicely. I’m suspicious of anyone who claims a supplement would do some of the things you claim. Do you have a financial interest in this?
    Go ahead and read through all of my posts, I don't have any connection and if I did, wouldn't I be trying to sell you some? Either way, believe what you want.

  5. #5
    '05 NUEser EJ123's Avatar
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    Watch out, some people on here oppose supplementation with their life.

  6. #6
    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ123
    Watch out, some people on here oppose supplementation with their life.
    You can also not listen to them.

    They appear to be simple neo-puritans. I've never had a discussion with a person with this viewpoint who could maintain a completely rational argument. I've concluded their opinions are very probably entirely meaningless and serve only to harry rational discussion here.
    Joe

    Veho difficilis, ago facilis

  7. #7
    '05 NUEser EJ123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratebeer
    You can also not listen to them.

    They appear to be simple neo-puritans. I've never had a discussion with a person with this viewpoint who could maintain a completely rational argument. I've concluded their opinions are very probably entirely meaningless and serve only to harry rational discussion here.
    +1

  8. #8
    big ring MIN's Avatar
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    I take a glucosimine/MSM supplement 2x per day. I don't notice anything, except that I don't have don't joint pains. Works as claimed, in that sense.

    You shouldn't expect a miracle out of this product though.

  9. #9
    Old fart redden's Avatar
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    Seems a bit like noni juice and it's predecessor, snake oil in it's claims. A red flag are when a substance is claimed to cure or resolve a multitude of conditions.

  10. #10
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ123
    Watch out, some people on here oppose supplementation with their life.
    There are just as many, if not more, who are gullible and buy way too many supplements. Just because you can find a study that says it works does not mean that you should take it.

    Methamphetamines will make you ride faster and lose weight too…

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic

    Methamphetamines will make you ride faster and lose weight too…

    I was on that diet back in the seventies, never had a weight problem.

  12. #12
    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic
    There are just as many, if not more, who are gullible and buy way too many supplements. Just because you can find a study that says it works does not mean that you should take it.

    Methamphetamines will make you ride faster and lose weight too…
    Speaking of gullible... Can you back that up? And what kinds of methamphetamines (plural) are you referring to? Various isomers? Or are these something else that you've learned about on the internets, professor?
    Last edited by ratebeer; 05-30-07 at 02:37 PM.
    Joe

    Veho difficilis, ago facilis

  13. #13
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratebeer
    Speaking of gullible... Can you back that up? And what kinds of methamphetamines (plural) are you referring to? Various isomers? Or are these something else that you've learned about on the internets, professor?
    You're kidding right? It's called speed for a reason.

    Read section 6 of the WADA banned substances list... WADA seems to agree with me.

    http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/d...07_List_En.pdf

  14. #14
    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic
    You're kidding right? It's called speed for a reason.

    Read section 6 of the WADA banned substances list... WADA seems to agree with me.

    http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/d...07_List_En.pdf
    Uh, WADA is making no claims. You are, professor.

    WADA also lists androstenedione and other "prohormones". The efficacy of these drugs, as performance enhancers, has never been established. WADA makes no claims that drugs on its proscribed list improve performance.

    It's one thing to claim benefits (androstene, amphetamine, creatine). It's another thing entirely to prove them (EPO, HGH).

    If you think WADA can tell you what drugs will improve your performance, then you're a few fries short of a Happy Meal, boss.

    A while ago, you came down on me with scientific authority and frankly I don't see how. Do you really have a career in the sciences? You seem to have little ability to do research and have no healthy dose of scientific reservation and doubt. Who are you?
    Joe

    Veho difficilis, ago facilis

  15. #15
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratebeer
    Uh, WADA is making no claims. You are, professor.

    WADA also lists androstenedione and other "prohormones". The efficacy of these drugs, as performance enhancers, has never been established. WADA makes no claims that drugs on its proscribed list improve performance.

    It's one thing to claim benefits (androstene, amphetamine, creatine). It's another thing entirely to prove them (EPO, HGH).

    If you think WADA can tell you what drugs will improve your performance, then you're a few fries short of a Happy Meal, boss.

    A while ago, you came down on me with scientific authority and frankly I don't see how. Do you really have a career in the sciences? You seem to have little ability to do research and have no healthy dose of scientific reservation and doubt. Who are you?
    If you just want to attack my credibility, feel free. Your accusations are like a gentle rain on the backside of a mountain.

    Take care.

  16. #16
    big ring MIN's Avatar
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    You bickering girls are ruining a perfectly mediocre thread!

  17. #17
    not actually Nickatina andre nickatina's Avatar
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    By the way, about the not blistering after a burn comment, I can back that up with a citation from a book about DMSO if you like (basically MSM but old school, has side effects like undesirable body odor that aren't present in MSM).

    Seems a bit like noni juice and it's predecessor, snake oil in it's claims. A red flag are when a substance is claimed to cure or resolve a multitude of conditions.
    Yes, this would be true about a lot of things but that doesn't entitle you the right to automatically remain skeptical and make blanket statements about everything that falls under that category. If we were talking about fish oil / omega 3 fatty acids, for example, it would easily fit into that category yet it DOES help treat a multitude of conditions as well.

  18. #18
    '05 NUEser EJ123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratebeer
    Uh, WADA is making no claims. You are, professor.

    WADA also lists androstenedione and other "prohormones". The efficacy of these drugs, as performance enhancers, has never been established. WADA makes no claims that drugs on its proscribed list improve performance.

    It's one thing to claim benefits (androstene, amphetamine, creatine). It's another thing entirely to prove them (EPO, HGH).

    If you think WADA can tell you what drugs will improve your performance, then you're a few fries short of a Happy Meal, boss.

    A while ago, you came down on me with scientific authority and frankly I don't see how. Do you really have a career in the sciences? You seem to have little ability to do research and have no healthy dose of scientific reservation and doubt. Who are you?
    Hm, good point.

  19. #19
    Old fart redden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andre nickatina
    By the way, about the not blistering after a burn comment, I can back that up with a citation from a book about DMSO if you like (basically MSM but old school, has side effects like undesirable body odor that aren't present in MSM).



    Yes, this would be true about a lot of things but that doesn't entitle you the right to automatically remain skeptical and make blanket statements about everything that falls under that category. If we were talking about fish oil / omega 3 fatty acids, for example, it would easily fit into that category yet it DOES help treat a multitude of conditions as well.
    So I don't have a right to be skeptical? Will the thought police be knocking on my door? Guess I should be worried. Hope it doesn't involve burning at the stake. Man, the patriot act must be all encompassing. remember if we are skeptical the terrorists win!!
    Last edited by redden; 05-31-07 at 06:09 AM.

  20. #20
    Old fart redden's Avatar
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    Published Research is Minuscule

    Medline searches for "methylsulfonylmethane, "MSM," and "dimethylsulfone" found few reports on MSM published in mainstream scientific journals between 1966 and 2000 and none in which MSM was tested for effectiveness against any human ailment. Two studies in rats found that MSM delayed the onset of chemically induced cancers [9,10]. However, since no further studies have been reported in more than 10 years, this appears not to have been a fruitful line of research. Another study found no effect on the onset of diabetes in rats [11].

    The claim that MSM is an important source of dietary sulfur is unsupported by published research. One study that involved feeding MSM to guinea pigs found that the sulfur from MSM was absorbed rapidly into the blood stream and was incorporated into methionine and cysteine of serum proteins. However, most of the sulfur appeared in the urine; less than 1% was incorporated into serum proteins. Increasing the dosage of MSM 100-fold increased the incorporation into serum proteins only 3-fold, indicating that the capacity to use MSM in this pathway is limited [12]. Thus, while MSM is naturally present in small amounts in a variety of foods, its contribution to sulfur metabolism in humans is likely to be negligible.
    Regulatory Action

    Karl Loren (whose birth name was Loren Karl Troescher) operates what he calls "The Largest Web Presence For MSM On The Planet," a site that markets MSM products with many health claims and testimonials for them. In October 2000, the FDA warned him that the long list of therapeutic claims he was making for these products made them drugs would be illegal to market without FDA approval. The letter stated that the FDA had seen no evidence that the products were safe and effective for their intended uses [13].
    The Bottom Line

    No published research studies link MSM to any of the health claims made by its marketers. Sulfur needed in human metabolism comes from dietary protein. MSM supplements probably make little or no contribution to the body's sulfur requirements. Thus there is no good reason to use MSM supplements.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by andre nickatina
    Yes, this would be true about a lot of things but that doesn't entitle you the right to automatically remain skeptical and make blanket statements about everything that falls under that category. .

    It's hard to believe anybody in this country at least, really believes that. Skepticism is probably the most useful skill to remain healthy and solvent in the modern world much less a right.

    Not only am I skeptical of all supplements and drugs, but I avoid them unless there's a very solid reason not too. Unfortunately, I can't avoid them all.

    The MSM list in the original post has all the markings of BS by the way. I wouldn't consider it "useful info", but just hype.

    Al

  22. #22
    Grizzled Curmudgeon keithm0's Avatar
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    FWIW (take this with an appropriately-sized grain of salt):

    Three years ago, I had knee surgery after tearing the meniscus in my left knee while hiking in the mountains. Shortly after surgery, an old friend[*] recommended that I take glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM to help recovery. I did, and recovery went very well. Of course, I don't know what would have happened if I didn't take the supplement. Maybe the glucosamine helped, maybe it didn't. I'll never know.

    That said, I have had problems with my right elbow for more than 30 years. When I was about 10, I injured it playing football in my front yard. Since then, I've not been able to straighten it completely. As I've gotten older, problems with it have become more pronounced: stiffness (especially in the morning), popping, grinding, pain, etc. My doctor said it was probably arthritis and I was "just getting old". Gee, thanks.

    After taking glucosamine for a few weeks, all problems in my elbow disappeared (except for the inability to straighten). No pain, no stiffness, no popping/grinding.

    I don't know which component of the glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM combo is responsible for the positive results, or if it's due to some magic combination of the three. And frankly, I don't care -- I just know it works for me.

    Of course, as they say, "the plural of anecdote is not data" -- your mileage may vary. I'm sure for every positive result there are many negative results. Skepticism is a Good Thing.

    [*] My "old friend" is not just some bozo off the street -- she's a nurse with 25 years experience (much of that in surgical recovery), "almost" a PhD (long story), and a vocal advocate of homeopathic remedies. I trust her, so I followed her advice.

  23. #23
    not actually Nickatina andre nickatina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redden
    So I don't have a right to be skeptical? Will the thought police be knocking on my door? Guess I should be worried. Hope it doesn't involve burning at the stake. Man, the patriot act must be all encompassing. remember if we are skeptical the terrorists win!!
    how old are you, like 60?

  24. #24
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    I rub it on my back when it hurts. Seems to work about as well as Tiger Balm or Icy Hot but without the smell. And then one day I happened to read the accompanying literature I found a bit hard to believe. I'll just use it on my back, thanks.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  25. #25
    big ring MIN's Avatar
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    Just noticed last night: I have glucosamine/MSM combo and MSM separately and the glucosimine/MSM combo contains way may MSM than the MSM alone. (1500 mg vs 500 mg).

    How that translates practically, I do not know.

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